Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[Robbienw]

Well no, its not the best.  Its the best at some tasks.  Like any other space marine vehicle.

[Kallas]

Well, it can be dropped from orbit and has impressive firepower so it probably is the best tank/transport hybrid Astartes have so far, lore wise.

 

We covered this before. It might be possible (and not quite properly backed by the lore), but it will still be vastly inferior to a purpose-built orbital insertion vehicle. A Repulsor would be massively more susceptible to interception and AA fire. A Repulsor would not be a fitting replacement for a Drop Pod.

 

I never liked Pods, and I don't feel they have as much of a place in 8th edition so I'm personally against them being re-designed again. Armies are getting strats to do their job which cost no points and I'd rather get that too.

 

And numerous people have bought Drop Pods over many years. Drop Pods being made redundant is a -y thing to do. Drop Pods may not have a place in 8th, but they should, despite your preferences against them (for some reason). 

 

Orks are getting teleportation now too.

 

Orks have been mucking around with teleportation for a long time (since at least Codex: Armageddon) and have had teleportation guns (Shokk Attack Guns) for a long time. And they're not only unreliable (Orks), they're incredibly dangerous (to the user, ammunition, and the target!). But the most important part is that Orks have been utilising teleportation (even if crude, unreliable and limited) for a long time in the lore, as well as being unshackled by ingrained bureaucratic biases (because they're Orks).

[Ishagu]

I never said Pods should be redundant, I'm saying I don't particularly want a Primaris variant.

 

And yes, Orks have teleportation, as do the Imperium. With Orks it's even less reliable and if they get a strat for using it so should Astartes.

[Kallas]

I never said Pods should be redundant, I'm saying I don't particularly want a Primaris variant.

 

And yes, Orks have teleportation, as do the Imperium. With Orks it's even less reliable and if they get a strat for using it so should Astartes.

 

Fair enough, I just misinterpreted what you said then. A maybe Primaris could get by without one, but I think that would take away quite a lot from a pure-Primaris Chapter's options.

 

Yes Ork tech is more unreliable/haphazard/prone to self destruction - hopefully that gets reflected in their stratagem, but I am staunchly against the wide proliferation of teleportation among Imperial forces. Yes, Space Marines can do it, but it's incredibly dangerous for things less well protected than Terminators (or otherwise warded, such as GK/DW [aka, Inquisitorial]) to perform a teleportation.

 

And yes, we've already been on this merry go round - Cawl could make fancier, shiny new bull:cuss teleportation, but I, on the other side of the fence, don't want to see yet more Deus Ex Cawl :cuss being pulled, he's already had enough spotlight and far too much (in my opinion) going his way. Primaris definitely need expansion, but teleportation isn't the way it should go.

 

A deep strike stratagem of some form? Sure. Teleportation? No thanks. Hell, make it a Grav Chute Insertion like Reivers (but then, of course, why bother with Reivers?). Mass access to teleportation cheapens it, and if there were supposed to be non-Drop Pod mass access to deep strike capability, then grav chutes would have been the way to go: GW didn't do that and that's likely a conscious decision.

[Blindhamster]

primaris simply having a fast low threat transport would be great. Where the repulsor is slow, armoured and high firepower, have a really fast, medium armour low firepower transport designed to get units exactly where they need to be.

[Captain Idaho]

If you want Space Marines to be technological wizards and have all the superior advancements then you should play 30K. Anyone who grew up with 40K SHOULD know that it's about a stagnant empire with supersticous idealogly driving decisions and unending war.

 

I'm out of this conversation. If 40K becomes this clean cut, Tau MK2 combat game it would be a crime against the setting.

[Deadman Wade]

My main problem with Space Marines is their equipment and one base attack.

Regular bolter just doesn't have enough damage to justify taking marines. Without AP and some ability to wound more reliable it's just a lasgun with s4. It makes me wonder why would super soldier from far future use something that's barely better than autogun (modern day assault rifle). With such lackluster weapon marines better BS means nothing, since tac squad can't hurt any basic infantry with T3 5+ save. Tac squad with 20 bolter shots causes something like 5 wounds to regular guardsman standing in the open or kill 3 in melee. This is what genetically modified super soldiers do?

If we're using special and heavy weapons tac squad price goes up even more, which stops players from using Brigades.

Primaris aren't the solution since their better weapons come with price increase, lack of transports and inability to take special weapons. So we're back to "good old" 3 scouts troops tax.

As for assault marines, well, is there any 160+ points melee unit that won't wipe floor with 10 ASM? Zero melee damage, low survivability, low firepower, no utility all in one squad for just 160 points!

Primaris are one more nail in a coffin to mobile elite army with their focus on stand and shoot tactics and huge blobs of static infantry.

Overall we've come from 5th edition with "drive rhinos forward, disembark, kill whatever you can, take some shots in return and move to other target" to "blob around a banner and HQs, stand and shoot like IG-wannabe". Pathetic and boring.

I'm ok-ish with how fragile marines are (got used to it), but I can't understand reasons behind giving theim sup-bar equipment and inability to fight even other troops.

[CCE1981]

My main problem with Space Marines is their equipment and one base attack.

Regular bolter just doesn't have enough damage to justify taking marines. Without AP and some ability to wound more reliable it's just a lasgun with s4. It makes me wonder why would super soldier from far future use something that's barely better than autogun (modern day assault rifle). With such lackluster weapon marines better BS means nothing, since tac squad can't hurt any basic infantry with T3 5+ save. Tac squad with 20 bolter shots causes something like 5 wounds to regular guardsman standing in the open or kill 3 in melee. This is what genetically modified super soldiers do?

If we're using special and heavy weapons tac squad price goes up even more, which stops players from using Brigades.

Primaris aren't the solution since their better weapons come with price increase, lack of transports and inability to take special weapons. So we're back to "good old" 3 scouts troops tax.

As for assault marines, well, is there any 160+ points melee unit that won't wipe floor with 10 ASM? Zero melee damage, low survivability, low firepower, no utility all in one squad for just 160 points!

Primaris are one more nail in a coffin to mobile elite army with their focus on stand and shoot tactics and huge blobs of static infantry.

Overall we've come from 5th edition with "drive rhinos forward, disembark, kill whatever you can, take some shots in return and move to other target" to "blob around a banner and HQs, stand and shoot like IG-wannabe". Pathetic and boring.

I'm ok-ish with how fragile marines are (got used to it), but I can't understand reasons behind giving theim sup-bar equipment and inability to fight even other troops.

A general rule revision would help to fix this. Get rid of the to-wound roll, if you hit you wound. Compare str to toughness, every point greater than toughness reduce armor save, every pt below increase armor save. Weapons can still have a natural AP.

 

That would go a long way, and other fixes would need to happen as well, but all of it is just wishlisting.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

In my opinion the problem lies with the fact, that the standard marines share a good part of their models (and thus statlines) with various other "factions" such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, thousand Sons, Death Guard etc. All those factions have the advantage, that they can improve the otherwise bad or mediocre marine stats with various different faction specific special rules that have a sufficient lore background. Contrary to that, all that standard marines get is lackluster chapter tactics.

 

That problem could've been solved by altering the marine model range. But that's where GW imho made mistake. They could've introduced primaris as an update to the existing model range, lore- and gameplaywise. Replacing the old models one after the other, while improving their stats at the same time (while still allowing the old models to represent the upgraded version). Instead of Primaris Terminators, Primaris Predators, Primaris Tacicals etc. we now have Repulsors, Intercessors and Agressors, which leads to a bloated codex.

On top of that the primaris range can't stand on it's own due to a lack of options. This again leads to people asking for primaris equivalents of existing standard marine units for example the Rhino:

 

 

primaris simply having a fast low threat transport would be great. Where the repulsor is slow, armoured and high firepower, have a really fast, medium armour low firepower transport designed to get units exactly where they need to be.

 

 

Which again enforces duplication.

[Ishagu]

If you want Space Marines to be technological wizards and have all the superior advancements then you should play 30K. Anyone who grew up with 40K SHOULD know that it's about a stagnant empire with supersticous idealogly driving decisions and unending war.

 

I'm out of this conversation. If 40K becomes this clean cut, Tau MK2 combat game it would be a crime against the setting.

Without advancing the setting Marines were falling behind, visually, and on the table. Do you just want more Rhino and Landraider variants? Do you want more awkward retcons like "They were there all along!" Centurions?

 

Look at a Tau Riptide, now look at a Marine Predator. I am a collector, a player of the game, a hobbyist. I want new models that aren't tied to existing designs, and we'll likely get that in the future with Primaris.

 

I can't stand to look at another Rhino variation for the rest of my life.

[BitsHammer]

I 100% agree with the Landraider and Stormraven being allowed to transport Primaris.

 

Rhino - not so much. To be frank it looks too small on the tabletop.

It is too small, on purpose. In an interview I recall Goodwin saying they made it smaller than it should be for scale to prevent the player from needing two turns to get from the back to the front of it.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I 100% agree with the Landraider and Stormraven being allowed to transport Primaris.

 

Rhino - not so much. To be frank it looks too small on the tabletop.

It is too small, on purpose. In an interview I recall Goodwin saying they made it smaller than it should be for scale to prevent the player from needing two turns to get from the back to the front of it.

That was a different rule-set. Now it looks rubbish. Every Astra Militarum, Eldar, SC Cult , etc transport is more imposing, visually.

[Deadman Wade]

In my opinion the problem lies with the fact, that the standard marines share a good part of their models (and thus statlines) with various other "factions" such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, thousand Sons, Death Guard etc. All those factions have the advantage, that they can improve the otherwise bad or mediocre marine stats with various different faction specific special rules that have a sufficient lore background. Contrary to that, all that standard marines get is lackluster chapter tactics.

 

That problem could've been solved by altering the marine model range. But that's where GW imho made mistake. They could've introduced primaris as an update to the existing model range, lore- and gameplaywise. Replacing the old models one after the other, while improving their stats at the same time (while still allowing the old models to represent the upgraded version). Instead of Primaris Terminators, Primaris Predators, Primaris Tacicals etc. we now have Repulsors, Intercessors and Agressors, which leads to a bloated codex.

On top of that the primaris range can't stand on it's own due to a lack of options. This again leads to people asking for primaris equivalents of existing standard marine units for example the Rhino:

 

 

 

primaris simply having a fast low threat transport would be great. Where the repulsor is slow, armoured and high firepower, have a really fast, medium armour low firepower transport designed to get units exactly where they need to be.

 

Which again enforces duplication.

Standard marines are bad across all factions. BA and DA special rules aren't stronger than chapter tactics. DA tacs and ASM are just as bad as BT since they still have low Str, small amount of attacks and bad equipment. Other books have more units to use, sure, but their tacs, scouts and primaris are still just a troop tax with no real combat usr.

[Ishagu]

Imo Primaris intercessors are a decent enough unit for engaging light infantry. Good range and/or mobility with shooting, 2 wounds is nice (not as nice as it used to be) and can actually dish out some damage in CC as even 5 guys have 11/12 attacks.

A slight point adjustment could make them more viable.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

I 100% agree with the Landraider and Stormraven being allowed to transport Primaris.

 

Rhino - not so much. To be frank it looks too small on the tabletop.

It is too small, on purpose. In an interview I recall Goodwin saying they made it smaller than it should be for scale to prevent the player from needing two turns to get from the back to the front of it.

That was a different rule-set. Now it looks rubbish. Every Astra Militarum, Eldar, SC Cult , etc transport is more imposing, visually.

 

It may have been a different rule set but they didn't change it because by the time they changed the model it had been cemented in our minds as being that size due to how long it stuck around.

[Blindhamster]

In my opinion the problem lies with the fact, that the standard marines share a good part of their models (and thus statlines) with various other "factions" such as Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, thousand Sons, Death Guard etc. All those factions have the advantage, that they can improve the otherwise bad or mediocre marine stats with various different faction specific special rules that have a sufficient lore background. Contrary to that, all that standard marines get is lackluster chapter tactics.

 

That problem could've been solved by altering the marine model range. But that's where GW imho made mistake. They could've introduced primaris as an update to the existing model range, lore- and gameplaywise. Replacing the old models one after the other, while improving their stats at the same time (while still allowing the old models to represent the upgraded version). Instead of Primaris Terminators, Primaris Predators, Primaris Tacicals etc. we now have Repulsors, Intercessors and Agressors, which leads to a bloated codex.

On top of that the primaris range can't stand on it's own due to a lack of options. This again leads to people asking for primaris equivalents of existing standard marine units for example the Rhino:

 

 

primaris simply having a fast low threat transport would be great. Where the repulsor is slow, armoured and high firepower, have a really fast, medium armour low firepower transport designed to get units exactly where they need to be.

 

 

Which again enforces duplication.

 

Raven Guard and Ultramarine tactics are good. Blood Angels tactic is good if you want to focus on close combat, meaningless if you don't. Space wolves again have a great CC bonus, but tnats it. Dark Angels have a fairly average tactic regardless. The thing that makes the other chapters shine on the tabletop is their unique units, even if they come at the expense of some of the standard marine units.

 

primaris units are not duplicates of existing units either, they have different purposes and uses. There are similarities but they're not really upgrades, more like sidegrades. The suggestion for a fast light low firepower transport isn't duplication, I'm not thinking rhino, I'm thinking more like a landspeeder storm in terms of speed and maneuverability, but able to transport primaris (or if the transports were opened up, any kind of marine).

 

If you want Space Marines to be technological wizards and have all the superior advancements then you should play 30K. Anyone who grew up with 40K SHOULD know that it's about a stagnant empire with supersticous idealogly driving decisions and unending war.

 

I'm out of this conversation. If 40K becomes this clean cut, Tau MK2 combat game it would be a crime against the setting.

 

How dare you tell people what they should think. I've been playing, building and painting space marines since 2nd edition and I absolutely resent the idea that your view of where the game should go is somehow superior to mine - it isn't. They're just different views. I like primaris, I like the progression, you might not. Thats fine.

[Robbienw]

It’s not like other transports aren’t big enough either.

 

The repulsor is a bigger model that the rhino sure, but there is absolutely no way the actual model will fit 10 actual Primaris models.

 

It is also too small in that regard.

[BitsHammer]

I'd originally edited this in to an earlier but due to how fast the thread is moving I felt moving this to it's own post was more appropriate:

 

If you want Space Marines to be technological wizards and have all the superior advancements then you should play 30K. Anyone who grew up with 40K SHOULD know that it's about a stagnant empire with supersticous idealogly driving decisions and unending war.

I'm out of this conversation. If 40K becomes this clean cut, Tau MK2 combat game it would be a crime against the setting.

I have to disagree that Space Marines are technological wizards compared to before. We know Space Marines have been a center of innovation and improvisation for a long time. Razorbacks (and later more Razorback variants), Land Raider variants,  Mk VII and Mk VIII armour, different marks of bolt guns, ect.

 

It's been a long standing thing that while tradition is important to the Marines, at the end of the day winning the campaign is more important. 

 

Primaris armour is still power armour and while it might have several small improvements (like gorgets to protect the neck from blades and bullets) it isn't such a massive improvement that it fundamentally changes the actual statline of the Primaris, it's just an upsized version of all the best bits of past power armour with potentially more exposed joints to allow greater degrees of movement while increasing the places they could be injured due to taking away from their armour in those same places.

 

The Cawl pattern boltgun is largely just a longer barrelled boltgun to increase accuracy over range and to be more durable in the hands of a Primaris when he's using it to beat heretics. The plasma is basically just a bigger plasma gun that has it's power settings altered to make it more stable on the move (assault version) or make it fire bigger shots that can melt things easier (heavier version which requires an external power cable like the plasma cannon does).

 

The Onlsaught Gatling Cannon is based on the same Rotor Cannon the Assault Cannon is but taken a different direction in terms of ammunition.

 

Heck, even Gravis seems to be just a Primaris version of Centurion armour made a bit more modular (modular is something Marines also like or else all their wargear wouldn't be so swappable) so you can use it for a platform for Inceptors as well. It fills a role similar to Terminators but it closer to being like a Centurion instead.

 

Basically the only real improvements we've seen are the Redemptor (which overloads the pilot's nervous system basically killing him by the end of every campaign one of these is deployed in (though I bet the Imperial Fists would handle it better since they are the chapter that trains with the Pain Glove)) and the Repulsor which is basically a Land Raider with some armour stripped off, a Predator turret put on top and Land Speeder anti-grav plates welded on to keep it afloat. So all existing tech, just assembled differently (which is something we've seen the Marines themselves do before).

 

Heck, I almost expect some of the future Primaris stuff to be from that direction of battlefield improvisation over any kind of Cawl gifted stuff (especially since Cawl is too busy trying to copy the Necron Pylons to seal warp rifts).

[Ishagu]

We're going off topic, but a theme repeats itself.

If you don't want any change or development, if you just want the same old stuff then by all means play that way. There is a massive and bloated Marine range with plenty of models to collect and paint.

 

If, however, you fancy some new and exciting models then Primaris might be the answer to that.

 

This topic is not about Regular Astartes V Primaris. It's about the fact that the current codex is sub par because of overpriced units, poor stratagems and a weak psychic phase. If an Intercessor cost 9 points the unit would be spammed across every gaming table and people would be complaining about overpowered Marines.

[BitsHammer]

I can definitely agree about the psychic phase. About the only two powers worth taking are Null Zone (which is hard to get off and has a short range making it harder still to use) and Might of Heroes (which I've heard of other Primaris players throwing on Repulsors or Redemptors just to keep the things kicking because of how targetable they are as models).

 

The powers need a retooling to better fit the game and have less "take this or waste your turn" powers.

 

In relation to where regular Marines are the Primaris feel like the right points cost, but Marines feel out of line with the rest of the game, leading to the Primaris to being out of line with the rest of the game. If they could drop everything down a few points we'd probably be happier with how it all feels, even if it only meant adding a couple extra bodies or guns to our lists.

 

And I don't think anyone could deny the strategems need work. And I'd argue so do the Chapter Tactics (why do Marines forget their chapter's fighting style once they get in a tank? No other army outside of Marines does!). Heck, I've argued that the Imperial Fists could stand to have their strategem swapped out with the Fortification bonus (basically make Bolter Drill a chapter tactic while the fortification thing becomes a strat you can pop for a point for the one or two games it matters) just because it feels fluffier to me (and fits more with the 3rd company supplement we had in last edition). I'd bet that others have similar changes or small tweaks for chapter tactics they'd want to see too.

[Ishagu]

As Prot mentioned earlier, the Marine codex has gone trough multiple, substantial nerfs because it was better than Index armies at the start of 8th.

 

You could probably knock 50 points off every single vehicle, drop Guilliman down to 350, and all the infantry reduced by a third and it still wouldn't be top tier.

[Panzer]

Drop Pods used to be free only in the formation that made dedicated transports free. Free stuff is dumb tho so I'm glad that's gone. Drop Pods need some advantage over regular deep strike, as long as that doesn't happen they remain useless regardless of their cost.

 

On the note of Drop Pods ... I just figured out for how many points I'd take them. About 30p.

It does the exact same thing as a Jump Pack in regards of reserves but without the advantage of giving a higher movement stat or the FLY keyword. It also protects against intercepting shooting. A Jump Pack costs 2-3ppm and the Drop Pod can carry up to 10 models. So that's 20-30 points. The Storm Bolter is another 2 points.

Now I don't value the protection as high as the higher movement and FLY keyword but it's there and it itself is also a model T6 W8 Sv3+ so your opponent HAS to deal with it in some way or another if you park it on an objective and it has a rather big footprint to block pathways so I don't give any point reductions compared to Jump Packs here. Also to be considered is that it gives access to deep strike to units who aren't supposed to be able to do so on their own making some of their loadout options more valuable than they were supposed to be, like Multi melta for example.

All in all I think 30p for a Drop Pod is justified but that also means that currently Drop Pods are almost 300% as expensive as they should be.

 

 

Just something I had to write down real quick. :P

[BitsHammer]

As Prot mentioned earlier, the Marine codex has gone trough multiple, substantial nerfs because it was better than Index armies at the start of 8th.

 

You could probably knock 50 points off every single vehicle, drop Guilliman down to 350, and all the infantry reduced by a third and it still wouldn't be top tier.

Points drops would be a good start, but like I said, there needs to be some substantial rule tweaks made to fix the army at this point. Basically we're reading for an 8.5 edition update to the codex I think. 

 

Normally this would be a thing 5 or 6 years after release on average, but with 20 codexes released inside of a year, it's not surprising that they aged faster than an Iron Warrior hit by a Hrud Entropy Field.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Drop Pods used to be free only in the formation that made dedicated transports free. Free stuff is dumb tho so I'm glad that's gone. Drop Pods need some advantage over regular deep strike, as long as that doesn't happen they remain useless regardless of their cost.

On the note of Drop Pods ... I just figured out for how many points I'd take them. About 30p.

It does the exact same thing as a Jump Pack in regards of reserves but without the advantage of giving a higher movement stat or the FLY keyword. It also protects against intercepting shooting. A Jump Pack costs 2-3ppm and the Drop Pod can carry up to 10 models. So that's 20-30 points. The Storm Bolter is another 2 points.

Now I don't value the protection as high as the higher movement and FLY keyword but it's there and it itself is also a model T6 W8 Sv3+ so your opponent HAS to deal with it in some way or another if you park it on an objective and it has a rather big footprint to block pathways so I don't give any point reductions compared to Jump Packs here. Also to be considered is that it gives access to deep strike to units who aren't supposed to be able to do so on their own making some of their loadout options more valuable than they were supposed to be, like Multi melta for example.

All in all I think 30p for a Drop Pod is justified but that also means that currently Drop Pods are almost 300% as expensive as they should be.

 

 

Just something I had to write down real quick. :P

I'd take one at 22 points with storm bolter, I think. Other transports are faster and offer better defence/mobile LOS blocking, charge capability, etc. What am I putting in a Pod? I can't put Centurions in them anymore. Maybe Sternguard? By the time you throw that pod and the unit in it costs almost the same as a squad of Inceptors.

I'd rather take Plasma and Bolter Inceptors, and they retain heir maximum output of shots OUTSIDE of 12"

[Panzer]

Not having proper units to put in a Drop Pod is a general problem of the Codex design, not of the Drop Pod itself tho.