Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[Robbienw]

Err Ishagu, wait until you get wait until you get to page 244 of Of Honour and Iron, there is a modern fluff example for you of thrall slave gangs manually loading torpedos on a starship :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Its an technologically cawl upgraded ultramarine hunter class destoryer as well!

[Ishagu]

LOL I can't wait to read it. Maybe I'm super wrong!

[SoulessGod]

I feel like the biggest issue with balancing factions comes from the fact that each faction is not only balanced against itself but all of it's lore.

 

Things like many forces have a deepstrike/teleport stratagem however for marines this would be seen to invaldidate drop pods, a sacred subject in fluff even if ineffective on the table.

 

People want marines to be competative on the table but want to limit them by their fluff and dont want their identity to evolve or change to improve their competitiveness.

 

You can't have both either accept change or accept that the army wont be balanced against other forces if you insist that the tacticts and materiel available to space marines cannot and will not change.

 

I'm sure of GW could make it happen they would.

[Sete]

How about that KT rule, Something Resilience?

Would it make any difference?

Maybe SM armour should ignore 1 rend or something.

[Robbienw]

Transhuman Physiology.  They should think about bringing it into 40k in some way to make marines better.

[Wargamer]

Transhuman Physiology.  They should think about bringing it into 40k in some way to make marines better.

My suggestion was a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks. It makes Astartes much tougher vs spammed attacks.

 

Iron Hands would need an upgrade to match - maybe a flat 5+ FNP for their Chapter Tactic.

[MyD4rkPassenger]

I think the changes would be most easily implemented at a points and wargear level.  I really like Sete's idea of the power armor being the source of the resilience in marines.  This would be one of the simpler solutions considering how many armies, chaos or loyal, wear power armor.  Despite what many here say about chaos marines being balanced separately from codex marines, remember none of us are taking our tactical equivalent either.

[Panzer]

A FnP like rule would probably be the most reasonable approach to implement something like that in main 40k, tho I'm not sure it'll happen. Many things would need to get adjusted. Slaanesh powers that give Marines a 5+++, the BA relic banner that gives a 5+++, Disgustingly Resilient which gives Plague Marines a 5+++. Most weapons are D1 anyway so saying all Marines have it against D1 and those effects I mentioned have it against D1+ would devalue those effects a lot imo (especially since you need to fail only one to lose the model unless you're Primaris anyway).

Not saying it's impossible but it does require some careful thinking.

[Blindhamster]

 

Transhuman Physiology.  They should think about bringing it into 40k in some way to make marines better.

My suggestion was a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks. It makes Astartes much tougher vs spammed attacks.

 

Iron Hands would need an upgrade to match - maybe a flat 5+ FNP for their Chapter Tactic.

 

how about a 5+ FNP to not lose their last wound

[Wargamer]

 

how about a 5+ FNP to not lose their last wound

 

 

I'd say no, because part of my thinking is to provide a clear link between Kill Team and 40K proper.

 

In Kill Team, Transhuman Physiology makes you more resilient against flesh wounds, but you can still be taken out by weight of damage or a single lucky injury roll.

 

To me, it feels more fitting that 40K's version should make you harder to kill with chip damage. It doesn't make as much sense that your resilience to light injuries would let you shrug off a lascannon to the face (unless it rolls 1 for its damage...)

[Blindhamster]

however, the ability in kill team is equally good for marines and primaris, because fleshwounds can come from just about any attack.

5+ vs D1 weapons means its great for regular marines but doesn't help with the issue primaris have (prevalence of D2)

[BitsHammer]

Now the premise that there have been changes so let's accept more is flawed and somewhat disingenuous. The current theme of 40K had been consistent for more than 30 years and changes have been minor amendments and expansion as the hobby has evolved over that time.

I'm not stating this to argue, but to rather point out that 30 years ago the Ultramarines had an half-Eldar Astropath Librarian who was also a former Dark Angel, the Guard could take Rhinos and Land Raiders, Leman Russ was the same size as a regular Marine and the Eye of Terror could blink.

 

The game has changed a LOT since its inception and we've seen them paint the modern incarnation of Marines as the ones who bring innovation to the Imperium because at the end of the day they have a limiting factor of bodies (when you can't have more than a thousand plus command/support elements) you need to be a bit more inventive on how to achieve the mission. This has lead to things like the alternate weapons on a Razorback past the original Heavy Bolter version, the Land Raider Crusader and Promethus, and even Mk V armour was an improvisation at the time of its creation.

 

I get that there is a lot of salt about Primaris and I don't want to tell people how to feel but to a fair number of us, the new guys fit that sort of "adapt or lose" spirit the Marines have always had and it's less a moment of doom for the guys but rather a part of the evolution the Marines have always followed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Don’t forget lots of people were demanding change to the ever stagnant background.

[MARK0SIAN]

Part of the problem for Marines is just sheer weight of dice in this edition. We’ve never had so many shots with so many rerolls to hit and so many rerolls to wound with so many weapons that reduce a Marine’s armour save before.

 

Marines are being called on to make too many saves, often not at their full armour save.

 

As well as points adjustment, marines need some fixes that simply stop more dice getting through. I’m not sure exactly what the solution to that is because it’s a problem with the game mechanics but at the moment it’s seriously hurting marines.

[The Pounder]

How about giving Primaris a rule that works like the Momento Mori for Death Korps of Krieg?

For those unaware it means that if you’re hit with a weapon that causes multiple damage it only counts as 1 damage!

[BitsHammer]

How about giving Primaris a rule that works like the Momento Mori for Death Korps of Krieg?

For those unaware it means that if you’re hit with a weapon that causes multiple damage it only counts as 1 damage!

I'd rather see a reduction of damage over turning it all into 1 damage. That said, I feel like reducing damage by 1 should be a Terminator thing (D2 becomes D1 making Terminators less likely to go down to a hail of D2 weapons).

[MARK0SIAN]

How about giving Primaris a rule that works like the Momento Mori for Death Korps of Krieg?

For those unaware it means that if you’re hit with a weapon that causes multiple damage it only counts as 1 damage!

I think blanket wise that’s too powerful, I’ve got no problem with something like a melta gun one-shotting a Primaris marine, or a Thunder Hammer killing them in one hit. For me the trick lies in not letting the wound through in the first place, or if t goes through, making sure that marines still get a good chance to save it.

 

I’d prefer something like the already suggested ignore -1 AP rule.

[Wargamer]

But where do you draw the line? Is it okay to one shot them with overcharged plasma? With krak missiles? What weapon specifically is so broken that having 2 wounds isn't useful?

[ShibeKing]

Dark Eldar Disintegrators destroyed me during my last few intro games, so I'm going to go with that. I'm just really salty.



At least the Drukhari look awesome.

[MARK0SIAN]

But where do you draw the line? Is it okay to one shot them with overcharged plasma? With krak missiles? What weapon specifically is so broken that having 2 wounds isn't useful?

It’s more of a general point that reducing all incoming damage to 1 is too strong. Now I’m not against damage mitigation per say (for example a rule to halve all damage, rounding up would be ok) but the proposal was for multi-damage weapons to simply be reduced to 1 damage and I standby my assertion that that is too powerful.

 

I also think that the way to solve the problem is mainly to reduce the chances of them ever needing to save wounds in the first place and when they do have to save them, particularly from low strength attacks, they have a good chance of passing the save.

 

The problem is, as others have pointed out, that fixes like that have a huge knock on effect, not just for other marine armies but things like Custodes.

[Ishagu]

Dark Eldar Disintegrators destroyed me during my last few intro games, so I'm going to go with that. I'm just really salty.

 

 

 

At least the Drukhari look awesome.

I have never, not once, beaten Dark Eldar since their new codex.

[Subtleknife]

Err Ishagu, wait until you get wait until you get to page 244 of Of Honour and Iron, there is a modern fluff example for you of thrall slave gangs manually loading torpedos on a starship :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Its an technologically cawl upgraded ultramarine hunter class destoryer as well!

Lol i was thinking exactly the same thing.

[Spaced Hulk]

I'm quite liking the idea of some sort of 'Transhuman Resilience' rule for all Space Marines (including Chaos), that reduces any damage suffered by one, to a minimum of one. Would really help Primaris marines, Terminators, Centurions, Characters etc.

 

For 'normal' Marines (particularly those with only one wound, who wouldn't benefit from this boost) I think I'd favour boosting their offensive ability, rather than their ability to take damage. For me, any Space Marine should be absolutely brutal in close combat, capable of tearing opponents apart with their bare hands. For that reason, I'd give Tactical, Assault & Devastator marines (and their Chaos counterparts) +1 Attack. Similarly, I'd give the basic boltgun a -1 Save Modifier.

 

Primaris would still represent an evolution of the Space Marine, by being able to withstand twice as much damage and having longer ranged weapons. But normal marines would feel as skilled and deadly as they're supposed to be.

[Subtleknife]

I'm quite liking the idea of some sort of 'Transhuman Resilience' rule for all Space Marines (including Chaos), that reduces any damage suffered by one, to a minimum of one. Would really help Primaris marines, Terminators, Centurions, Characters etc.

 

For 'normal' Marines (particularly those with only one wound, who wouldn't benefit from this boost) I think I'd favour boosting their offensive ability, rather than their ability to take damage. For me, any Space Marine should be absolutely brutal in close combat, capable of tearing opponents apart with their bare hands. For that reason, I'd give Tactical, Assault & Devastator marines (and their Chaos counterparts) +1 Attack. Similarly, I'd give the basic boltgun a -1 Save Modifier.

 

Primaris would still represent an evolution of the Space Marine, by being able to withstand twice as much damage and having longer ranged weapons. But normal marines would feel as skilled and deadly as they're supposed to be.

Yeah this for me is the best way. Keeps primaris different but ups normal marines too.

[Brother Crimson]

Funny thing: Reece is 3-0 with ultrasmarines at Nova.

 

Sure the hardest part as yet to come but still a good start.