Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[BitsHammer]

Funny thing: Reece is 3-0 with ultrasmarines at Nova.

 

Sure the hardest part as yet to come but still a good start.

Is he running Guilliman? And did he splash in some Guard or did he go monodex?

[Tamiel]

There are three pieces of equipment that drew me to Space Marines:
The Bolter

The Chainsword

The Power Armour

The other stuff, like the plasma guns and dreadnoughts, are nothing more than the cherry on top to me. But the main, iconic, meat-and-potatoes of what drew me to marines is the bolter, chainsword, and power armour. If marines get a buff, I hope those three things get buffed. Because right now, we live in an era where the bolter feels like an upgraded auto-gun at best, the chainsword feels exactly like a regular combat blade, and power armour is nothing to write home about. It's as if everything I've read in the lore about the holy bolter, the sacred chainsword, and the divine power armour were all lies.

Either that, or this edition was designed by someone who hates everything marines stand for. An anti-MattWard, or something.

[Brother Crimson]

 

 

Funny thing: Reece is 3-0 with ultrasmarines at Nova.

 

Sure the hardest part as yet to come but still a good start.

Is he running Guilliman? And did he splash in some Guard or did he go monodex?

Mono dex very heavy on scouts with Guilliman and 3 devastators, he’s also one of the low scoring 3-0 and did not face real knight armies. I wonder how he’d push through them.

[Ishagu]

 

 

 

Funny thing: Reece is 3-0 with ultrasmarines at Nova.

 

Sure the hardest part as yet to come but still a good start.

Is he running Guilliman? And did he splash in some Guard or did he go monodex?

Mono dex very heavy on scouts with Guilliman and 3 devastators, he’s also one of the low scoring 3-0 and did not face real knight armies. I wonder how he’d push through them.

I recently went 4 and 1 at a large tournament using Ultras. Then I came across Dark Eldar boosted by Eldrad and lost.

 

I was fortunate with match ups (fluffy custodes, Necrons I seized on, etc), and played well, but exceptions aren't proof of the rule so it's not an indication of anything.

 

I asked Reece to take Centurions and Assault Marines but I don't think he followed thar advice lol

[Kallas]

I asked Reece to take Centurions and Assault Marines but I don't think he followed thar advice lol

There's a limit to anyone's masochism!

[Deadman Wade]

 

Transhuman Physiology.  They should think about bringing it into 40k in some way to make marines better.

My suggestion was a 5+ FNP vs D1 attacks. It makes Astartes much tougher vs spammed attacks.

 

Iron Hands would need an upgrade to match - maybe a flat 5+ FNP for their Chapter Tactic.

 

100% agree. High-damage high-AP should kill marines - plasma, melta, battle cannons e.t.c., I have no problem with that. The real pain is that marines are dropping like flies from small arms fire, against which power armor is supposed to protect. Something like -1 to-wound or 5+ FNP against D1 weapons would make marines significantly better without making them owerpowered. Of course that'll make Death Guard even more resilient, but that's their thing.

[Sete]

But the nurgle already have their thing from their patron god.

You could argue that the :cuss state of their amour/gene seed degradation does not offer those bonus or something.

[Wargamer]

You don't need to automatically give Chaos the Imperium boosts. In fact, you shouldn't. Chaos should not just be spikey Imperials.

[SoulessGod]

You don't automatically have to give Chaos the Imperium boosts. If you can find a reason to differentiate the two units in the lore of the universe. Otherwise one part or the other will complain and use the lore tonback them up.

[Wargamer]

Purer geneseed and better wargear works for the Imperium. Chaos rely on mutation and Chaos Gifts to make up the difference.

[Brother Crimson]

I don’t get the « chaos will get a boost » argument.

 

Their power armour marines are just as bad, that’s why you see cultists taking the lead as troops.

 

I would just be as glad to see a chaos spiked marine army being something playable.

[BitsHammer]

My concern isn't boosting Chaos Space Marines in general as it is accidently boosting an army like Sisters (of either flavor) into realms of broken by their wargear being boosted as well. I saw one idea to boost all power armour saves by 1. That's put Marines and Sisters at a 2+ while Sisters generally number 2-3:1 against Marines.

[Kallas]

My concern isn't boosting Chaos Space Marines in general as it is accidently boosting an army like Sisters (of either flavor) into realms of broken by their wargear being boosted as well. I saw one idea to boost all power armour saves by 1. That's put Marines and Sisters at a 2+ while Sisters generally number 2-3:1 against Marines.

Simple fix: add "Astartes" as a prefix to everything being modified. Astartes do have better gear, because they have the Black Carapace for integration with their armour and due to their physique can handle far more powerful versions of weapons, most notably the Boltgun!

[BitsHammer]

 

My concern isn't boosting Chaos Space Marines in general as it is accidently boosting an army like Sisters (of either flavor) into realms of broken by their wargear being boosted as well. I saw one idea to boost all power armour saves by 1. That's put Marines and Sisters at a 2+ while Sisters generally number 2-3:1 against Marines.

Simple fix: add "Astartes" as a prefix to everything being modified. Astartes do have better gear, because they have the Black Carapace for integration with their armour and due to their physique can handle far more powerful versions of weapons, most notably the Boltgun!

 

The Black Carapace doesn't increase the protective value of power armour, it increases how "nimble" it is by making it give sensory information to the wearer allowing it to be more like a second layer of skin while also responding faster to the intent of the wearer. So no, it doesn't make sense to argue that it's better. Especially since the Ecclesiarchy has enough money to fund wargear that is just as good (if not better) for their private army.

[Slan Drakkos]

The Black Carapace doesn't increase the protective value of power armour, it increases how "nimble" it is by making it give sensory information to the wearer allowing it to be more like a second layer of skin while also responding faster to the intent of the wearer. So no, it doesn't make sense to argue that it's better. Especially since the Ecclesiarchy has enough money to fund wargear that is just as good (if not better) for their private army.

then just give astartes a better invuln save. Their armor is much more durable than the sister's after all. You never really hear about sisters shrugging off sustained bolter fire, meanwhile, space Marines can and do regularly act as if bolter rounds to the legs and chest are minor annoyances.

[BitsHammer]

 

The Black Carapace doesn't increase the protective value of power armour, it increases how "nimble" it is by making it give sensory information to the wearer allowing it to be more like a second layer of skin while also responding faster to the intent of the wearer. So no, it doesn't make sense to argue that it's better. Especially since the Ecclesiarchy has enough money to fund wargear that is just as good (if not better) for their private army.

then just give astartes a better invuln save. Their armor is much more durable than the sister's after all. You never really hear about sisters shrugging off sustained bolter fire, meanwhile, space Marines can and do regularly act as if bolter rounds to the legs and chest are minor annoyances.

 

An invul save doesn't do anything to fix the Marines going down like Scions under anything that hits with a -1AP and it only gets worse from there. A 6++ might help against the occasional power sword or melta shot, but generally it doesn't fix the base problem Marines have.

 

Power Armour ignoring the first -1AP is likely the best mechanic as it negates the bite of some weapons (many of which are D2) a bit without breaking the game by giving a powered armoured horde 2+ saves.

[Kallas]

The Black Carapace does make an Astartes tougher (not by a huge amount, but it does) and you mentioned the increase in dexterity. That is very important, as it allows a Marine (who has far greater reflexes and strength) to react to incoming danger and position/brace/present heavily armoured sections of the suit.

 

Astartes Power Armour is better than unaugmented human Power Armour.

[Captain Idaho]

Hmmm. Maybe Marines should have a 2+ armour save and Terminators a 1+ save?

 

Or just add a wound to everything - Primaris get 3 and classic Marines get 2 etc.

[BitsHammer]

The Black Carapace does make an Astartes tougher (not by a huge amount, but it does) and you mentioned the increase in dexterity. That is very important, as it allows a Marine (who has far greater reflexes and strength) to react to incoming danger and position/brace/present heavily armoured sections of the suit.

 

Astartes Power Armour is better than unaugmented human Power Armour.

It's better largely in how it doesn't impede the combat capability of a Marine as much as regular power armour can impede a regular human (we're talking by microseconds here in terms of response time, but point remains).

 

In 40k the system isn't nuanced enough to represent the slight extra boost the Black Carapace could present.

Hmmm. Maybe Marines should have a 2+ armour save and Terminators a 1+ save?

 

Or just add a wound to everything - Primaris get 3 and classic Marines get 2 etc.

While I'm all for making Terminators of all flavors a 1+, I'm still not on board for a 2+ for power armour. 

 

Three wounds would help Primaris weather D2 weapons better, but regular Marines would suffer from D2 weapons instead. And the change would likely make Custodes 4 wounds instead.

[Kallas]

It's better largely in how it doesn't impede the combat capability of a Marine as much as regular power armour can impede a regular human (we're talking by microseconds here in terms of response time, but point remains).

 

In 40k the system isn't nuanced enough to represent the slight extra boost the Black Carapace could present.

I'd disagree about the degree to which it improves combat capability, but there is a lot of conflicting lore out there (in one, for example, a Space Wolf Chaplain moves so fast that he gets behind a dude swinging at him, and makes his own, before the blow lands!) so that's fair enough.

 

And I definitely agree about the second point. I genuinely like the 8th Ed changes, but I feel that they were very cautious with them (and I can understand why). However, keeping the 'chaff' type infantry stats so low really painted them into a corner. Using Guardsmen as a basis, we could have had (as an ass-pull example):

Toughness 5 Guardsmen, with Strength 5 Lasguns;

Sisters could have Toughness 6 and Strength 6 Bolters;

Astartes with Toughness 8 and Strength 7 Bolters;

Primaris with Toughness 9, and Strength 8 Bolters;

Terminators with Toughness 10/11...

 

You get the picture. I do feel like GW kept their stat changes small to keep a similar feel, but that had a negative impact on their design space overall.

[BitsHammer]

I can agree about the stats, but to fix that problem we need to reexamine the entire game from the ground up and how stats in it work.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Didn't drop podding used to be free? You didn't even have to have a model or proxy, troops and dreads could arrive 'via drop pod' and just set up. Codex Black Templars was built around it. 

 

I miss Planetfall...

 

 

Drop Pods used to be free only in the formation that made dedicated transports free. Free stuff is dumb tho so I'm glad that's gone. Drop Pods need some advantage over regular deep strike, as long as that doesn't happen they remain useless regardless of their cost.

No, brother Adelard is right. This is going back a while (long before a Drop Pod model), but the 3rd ed dex just had the 'Drop Pod' rule, where if your entire army was 'poddable' and the mission used Deep Strike, you could just deep strike your entire army (only army that could iirc). The Drop Pods with stats came in the 4th ed dex, with the model finally coming in 5th. I know it's a long time ago now, but it was once a thing.

[Sete]

My dudes power armour 2+.

Terminator 2+ and ignores rend.

[Slan Drakkos]

Hmmm. Maybe Marines should have a 2+ armour save and Terminators a 1+ save?

Or just add a wound to everything - Primaris get 3 and classic Marines get 2 etc.

Alternatively, we could talk about their preternatural speed and reflexes. Anyone else remember how they usually slap bolt rounds out of the air or manage to narrowly dodge energy blasts? How about a 5+ invuln save at range that becomes a 4+ invuln save in close combat?

[Sword Brother Adelard]

 

 

Didn't drop podding used to be free? You didn't even have to have a model or proxy, troops and dreads could arrive 'via drop pod' and just set up. Codex Black Templars was built around it.

 

I miss Planetfall...

Drop Pods used to be free only in the formation that made dedicated transports free. Free stuff is dumb tho so I'm glad that's gone. Drop Pods need some advantage over regular deep strike, as long as that doesn't happen they remain useless regardless of their cost.

No, brother Adelard is right. This is going back a while (long before a Drop Pod model), but the 3rd ed dex just had the 'Drop Pod' rule, where if your entire army was 'poddable' and the mission used Deep Strike, you could just deep strike your entire army (only army that could iirc). The Drop Pods with stats came in the 4th ed dex, with the model finally coming in 5th. I know it's a long time ago now, but it was once a thing.

I think FW did pods around the end of 3rd.