Astartes really do suck, unfortunately!

[The Unseen]

Astartes need offensive buffs slightly more than defensive ones in my opinion. Small units of marines should feel threatening, they need more/better attacks in cc, and both an increase in quantity of shots (to handle chaff infantry) and maybe a small boost to those shots actual lethality. Str4 lasguns aren't a *terrible* weapon, the issue is the lack of volume. Str 4 no ap is a quantity profile, and marines are way way too expensive to give you the amount of dice you need to make that weapons stat work.
Or to put it another way, if you could pay 1 pt and give guardsmen bolters (which is what GW says it costs to give guard sergeants bolters) it'd be damn tempting. But when you slapping that profile on a minimum cost body of 13 pts, it just doesn't hold up.

 

Marine durability isn't awful unless you compare it to guardsmen, most other troops are about as durable point for point. But marines suffer more against better quality weapons, which are easy to spam, and they offensive output is really bad when compared to almost every other armies base models. I'd say they still need better durability against small arms than what they have, because their weakness to stuff with AP or mortal wounds is really noticeable. But I'd say GW got something right with Primaris marines, they *feel* about as durable against small arms as I'd like, given the limited design space from the D6. You can't make them have a 2+ save, that'd wouldn't leave design space for the even more heavily armored stuff, and FNP is a Death Guard/Iron Hand thing now, but increasing their base wound count does a lot.

 

Also is fairly decent game design. 2+ saves are very swingy, and pretty much always feel bad for someone, either a bunch are passed, and the opponent is unhappy that he made 0 progress, or a bunch of 1's are rolled, and the controller didn't feel like he got any value out of them. But extra wounds are an in-between option, the opponent at least feels he is making progress when he knocks a wound of a model, and the user of the model can feel those wounds be chipped away slowly, rather than it be all or nothing. For an extreme example, a model with a 2+ rerollable invul save vs a model with no save at all but 36 wounds (assuming mortal wounds and degrading profiles aren't a thing) Those 2 models have the same statistically durability, but the one relying on saving throw will never not be hair-rendingly annoying for someone, and the thing with 36 wounds and no save just feels like a damage sponge.

 

So your options are make marines cheaper, but at this point the points value of infantry is so compacted into a tiny range that you realistically can't do that, and it moves marines further away from their lore, or make each marine hit harder. If Intercessors stayed the same price, but got a 3rd shot at half range, and an "Astartes Combat Blade* that gave them AP-1 in CC, they wouldn't become a powerhouse unit, but they would be a standout troop choice, probably still out-done overall by guard, but suddenly compare very well against most other infantry troops for their cost. They would still be weak to multi-damage weapons, but well, elite armies kinda should be. A related issue that weapons designed to kill chaff infantry are either really bad at it (Cough Flamers Cough) or do just as well killing MeQs as well. If that was fixed, being weak to plasma but strong to flamers would actually matter.

 

So make mortals in power armor 3+ 1 Wound, marines 3+ 2 Wounds, Terminators/Custodes 2+ 3 Wounds, etc, and might be ok.

And for the weapon buffs, just make mortal weaponry and "Astartes" class weaponry different things. The whole point (well, one of the points) of giant, super strong dudes is they can carry unreasonably large guns. Why is the bolter a marine issued the same as the one given to joe schmoe the guard sergeant?

Sisters could go either way with that. On the one hand, they are in power armor and the ecclesiarchy can afford the best. But they aren't super-humans on the other, so you could write them being able to handle the recoil or not as you like.

 

And increasing the offensive output of marines in general lends itself to solving some other issues, like the drop pod one. If regular marines were actually scary to be close too, the value of a pod would go up quite a bit. Like, if sternguard didn't hit like wet toilet paper for their cost perhaps.

 

A *What-If* idea I had was that some weapons should have a (+1) AP modifier, as in, make the opponent's armor save better by a point. Make lasguns and the equivalent make the opponents armor better, AP 6 weapons become the 0, and then AP5 becomes -1. But it won't happen.

[Kallas]

A *What-If* idea I had was that some weapons should have a (+1) AP modifier, as in, make the opponent's armor save better by a point. Make lasguns and the equivalent make the opponents armor better, AP 6 weapons become the 0, and then AP5 becomes -1. But it won't happen.

 

Strongly disagree with this, because Lasguns are actually pretty damn powerful guns (once you dig a little deeper than 40k mechanics would have you believe!) - it's just that so much of the galaxy is -ing lethal! Orks are seriously tough; Eldar are barely visible when they book it; Marines are clad in battle tank-grade armour; Tyranids evolve las-resistant chitin/are super fast (eg, Genestealers)/are super tough (er, actually Genestealers again)/are super sneaky ( sake, Genestealers again!), etc, etc. Lasguns are nasty weapons, and with adjustable settings so that they can hit harder than their 'standard' settings (just that they get less shots, which is important when you're the 'anvil' and need to hold as long as possible!).

 

There's not much that I'd say should actually be +1AP, maybe the generic close combat weapon that everything without a specific weapon has? But even that is supposed to represent basic defence weaponry (a decent dagger, sharp claws and teeth, etc), though that seems like the best place for it.

 

So make mortals in power armor 3+ 1 Wound, marines 3+ 2 Wounds, Terminators/Custodes 2+ 3 Wounds, etc, and might be ok.

And for the weapon buffs, just make mortal weaponry and "Astartes" class weaponry different things. The whole point (well, one of the points) of giant, super strong dudes is they can carry unreasonably large guns. Why is the bolter a marine issued the same as the one given to joe schmoe the guard sergeant?

Sisters could go either way with that. On the one hand, they are in power armor and the ecclesiarchy can afford the best. But they aren't super-humans on the other, so you could write them being able to handle the recoil or not as you like.

 

This, absolutely this.

 

Astartes Bolters are not the same as Guard/Sororitas/human Bolters!

 

Quote from Lexicanum (source, Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, pg173)

"Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket."

 

Edit: Even a small part of that should indicate that Astartes Bolters are a league apart: "with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage." Why the ever-loving Emperor are Guard Bolters just as good as Astartes Bolters?!

 

Quote from Blood Angels Codex, 8th Edition (Tactical Squads, pg43)

"Most Tactical Marines carry a boltgun - the merciless weapon of death upon which the Imperium was founded. The squad's fearsome amount of anti-personnel firepower is inevitably complemented by a special weapon [...]"

 

Do Tactical Squads' Bolters give them a "fearsome amount of anti-personnel firepower"? Haha, like do they! Bolters are straight up pathetic. As The Unseen says, they're a quantity weapon, and that is not befitting an ostensibly elite army/unit.

[Jackalwolf]

I truly hope and expect that we'll see sooner rather than later the Primaris codex, with the expansion of the model line once all 8th edition codices are done.

 

Rules for all founding legions line the Horus heresy has and new units could make Primaris very competitive.

[Leif Bearclaw]

Astartes Bolters are not the same as Guard/Sororitas/human Bolters!

 

Quote from Lexicanum (source, Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, pg173)

"Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket."

 

Edit: Even a small part of that should indicate that Astartes Bolters are a league apart: "with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage." Why the ever-loving Emperor are Guard Bolters just as good as Astartes Bolters?!

 

Because that's a weird quirk of the FFG RPGs, which introduced the whole 'Astartes Bolter' concept, which as far as I'm aware remained restricted to the RPGs. They needed something to differentiate Marines, and their gear, from regular humans, or else they'd run the risk of repeating the Inquisitor quirk where Marines could throw their bolters and do more damage than shooting them. Marines in those games are meant to be a league apart from regular Acotyles, which would be a lot harder to achieve if they shared weapon stats. In the rest of 40k, there hasn't been this distinction. Bolters are bolters. There are differences between Marine-issue and 'normal' bolters (and sometimes not necessarily in the Marine's favour, see the Sister's Godwyn-De'az, apparently having "superiority to nearly all other boltgun-type weapons"), but all fire the same .6-.75 mass reactive bolts, and equally mess up what they hit.

[Wargamer]

Simple fix then - Astartes USED to use the same bolters as everyone else, but Mary Sue invented new Bolters for the True Marines in between creating a flying Fellblade and inventing the Goldier Throne.

[BitsHammer]

Simple fix then - Astartes USED to use the same bolters as everyone else, but Mary Sue invented new Bolters for the True Marines in between creating a flying Fellblade and inventing the Goldier Throne.

Cawl doesn't fit the actual definition of a Mary Sue. For one, he has actual justification for his knowledge, Guilliman loaths him for the most part for another and his efforts making new pylons are unpredictable at best, assuming they can even work at all.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

Simple fix then - Astartes USED to use the same bolters as everyone else, but Mary Sue invented new Bolters for the True Marines in between creating a flying Fellblade and inventing the Goldier Throne.

Cawl doesn't fit the actual definition of a Mary Sue. For one, he has actual justification for his knowledge, Guilliman loaths him for the most part for another and his efforts making new pylons are unpredictable at best, assuming they can even work at all.

 

 

In addition Corax had already tried changing the process, if Cawl had access to the data from that attempt he may not have really did that much.

[CCE1981]

 

Simple fix then - Astartes USED to use the same bolters as everyone else, but Mary Sue invented new Bolters for the True Marines in between creating a flying Fellblade and inventing the Goldier Throne.

Cawl doesn't fit the actual definition of a Mary Sue. For one, he has actual justification for his knowledge, Guilliman loaths him for the most part for another and his efforts making new pylons are unpredictable at best, assuming they can even work at all.

 

Cawl is male so he would be a Gary Stu ;)

[BitsHammer]

 

 

Simple fix then - Astartes USED to use the same bolters as everyone else, but Mary Sue invented new Bolters for the True Marines in between creating a flying Fellblade and inventing the Goldier Throne.

Cawl doesn't fit the actual definition of a Mary Sue. For one, he has actual justification for his knowledge, Guilliman loaths him for the most part for another and his efforts making new pylons are unpredictable at best, assuming they can even work at all.

 

Cawl is male so he would be a Gary Stu

 

While you are correct, point remains that while Cawl's sudden inclusion is a bit of a shock for those of the community who are well versed on their fluff, he doesn't fit the role of a Gary Stu. Dues Ex Mechanicus perhaps, but not a Gary Stu.

 

And now I'm going to have think about those Gary clones from Fallout. "GaaAAAAaaaary."

[Volt]

 

 

My concern isn't boosting Chaos Space Marines in general as it is accidently boosting an army like Sisters (of either flavor) into realms of broken by their wargear being boosted as well. I saw one idea to boost all power armour saves by 1. That's put Marines and Sisters at a 2+ while Sisters generally number 2-3:1 against Marines.

Simple fix: add "Astartes" as a prefix to everything being modified. Astartes do have better gear, because they have the Black Carapace for integration with their armour and due to their physique can handle far more powerful versions of weapons, most notably the Boltgun!

 

The Black Carapace doesn't increase the protective value of power armour, it increases how "nimble" it is by making it give sensory information to the wearer allowing it to be more like a second layer of skin while also responding faster to the intent of the wearer. So no, it doesn't make sense to argue that it's better. Especially since the Ecclesiarchy has enough money to fund wargear that is just as good (if not better) for their private army.

 

Sisters power armor is inferior to Astartes power armor per Deathwatch/Dark Heresy.

[The Unseen]

 

 

 

Astartes Bolters are not the same as Guard/Sororitas/human Bolters!

 

Quote from Lexicanum (source, Dark Heresy: The Inquisitor's Handbook, pg173)

"Like other Space Marine weaponry, Astartes boltguns are designed around their superhuman physique. The weight of each weapon would require most humans to use a supporting brace, with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage. However, even if a normal human were to fire the boltgun, the resulting recoil would rip their arm from its socket."

 

Edit: Even a small part of that should indicate that Astartes Bolters are a league apart: "with hand-grips larger than any normal human could manage." Why the ever-loving Emperor are Guard Bolters just as good as Astartes Bolters?!

 

Because that's a weird quirk of the FFG RPGs, which introduced the whole 'Astartes Bolter' concept, which as far as I'm aware remained restricted to the RPGs. They needed something to differentiate Marines, and their gear, from regular humans, or else they'd run the risk of repeating the Inquisitor quirk where Marines could throw their bolters and do more damage than shooting them. Marines in those games are meant to be a league apart from regular Acotyles, which would be a lot harder to achieve if they shared weapon stats. In the rest of 40k, there hasn't been this distinction. Bolters are bolters. There are differences between Marine-issue and 'normal' bolters (and sometimes not necessarily in the Marine's favour, see the Sister's Godwyn-De'az, apparently having "superiority to nearly all other boltgun-type weapons"), but all fire the same .6-.75 mass reactive bolts, and equally mess up what they hit.

Not just FFG, though it is *less* common elswhere.

But it's been mentioned in the fluff countless times that marine weapons are better maintained/bigger/more powerful than mortal equivalents.

Use it/expand on it.

Because marines are never going to be *good* in 8ths framework if their stuck using the same weapons everyone else is.

 

If you have to use Deus Ex Cawl to do it, fine.

I don't like it very much, and feel he's too many characters worth of stuff in one sorta-man, and is a sign that GW is turning 40k from a big galaxy sized setting into a saturday morning cartoon about a dozen characters and the same recurring villains, but whatever.

 

Bad fluff is easier to ignore than bad rules.

[autek mor]

it is only right this topic has come about with the recent release of meh wolves. GW still insist on copy and pasting units across books and minimal tweaks but have no problem making the eldar books strong right off the bat. the deathguard book should be the standard to follow. that book had a good mix of fluff and undercosted as well as effective units. i was hoping the space wolves book would be a great opportunity for them to explore what they can do with the loyalist marine range but they bottled it yet again. hopefully these rumoured changes give us what we need.

[BitsHammer]

 

 

 

My concern isn't boosting Chaos Space Marines in general as it is accidently boosting an army like Sisters (of either flavor) into realms of broken by their wargear being boosted as well. I saw one idea to boost all power armour saves by 1. That's put Marines and Sisters at a 2+ while Sisters generally number 2-3:1 against Marines.

Simple fix: add "Astartes" as a prefix to everything being modified. Astartes do have better gear, because they have the Black Carapace for integration with their armour and due to their physique can handle far more powerful versions of weapons, most notably the Boltgun!

 

The Black Carapace doesn't increase the protective value of power armour, it increases how "nimble" it is by making it give sensory information to the wearer allowing it to be more like a second layer of skin while also responding faster to the intent of the wearer. So no, it doesn't make sense to argue that it's better. Especially since the Ecclesiarchy has enough money to fund wargear that is just as good (if not better) for their private army.

 

Sisters power armor is inferior to Astartes power armor per Deathwatch/Dark Heresy.

 

Which was done purely for mechanical reasons and less for any real reasons beyond that. Quite honestly I don't hold FFG has canon considering they lost the license and GW has never used any of their stuff in the main game.

[PiñaColada]

Honestly I wouldn't be upset if they just gave SM (and CSM) an ability where their boltguns are rapid fire 2 instead of rapid fire 1 & stormbolters brought up to rapid fire 3 for marines. At least then they'd be scary in close quarters.

[Ishagu]

I think a point adjustment or even rule changes are coming that will be substantial in CA.

I trust the individual who said we'll all be a lot happier come Chapter Approved 2018

[Captain Idaho]

Who did say that? So many rumours I can't keep up with them!

[MARK0SIAN]

The track record of the changes they’ve made so far are not leaving me very hopeful for chapter approved. Sledgehammer nerfs and points increases to some units that just needed a tweak, ignoring major problems, their bias against Forgeworld and badly thought out rules changes have been what we’ve seen so far.

 

Granted there have been some improvements in the rules and points but the improvements to units and factions have been incremental at best, I wouldn’t expect sweeping changes.

[BitsHammer]

The track record of the changes they’ve made so far are not leaving me very hopeful for chapter approved. Sledgehammer nerfs and points increases to some units that just needed a tweak, ignoring major problems, their bias against Forgeworld and badly thought out rules changes have been what we’ve seen so far.

 

Granted there have been some improvements in the rules and points but the improvements to units and factions have been incremental at best, I wouldn’t expect sweeping changes.

CA was points only last year. If that's all they do this year then it won't really fix most of the Marine's problems.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

The track record of the changes they’ve made so far are not leaving me very hopeful for chapter approved. Sledgehammer nerfs and points increases to some units that just needed a tweak, ignoring major problems, their bias against Forgeworld and badly thought out rules changes have been what we’ve seen so far.

 

Granted there have been some improvements in the rules and points but the improvements to units and factions have been incremental at best, I wouldn’t expect sweeping changes.

CA was points only last year. If that's all they do this year then it won't really fix most of the Marine's problems.

That’s what I mean, there were a few rules changes but they were mostly minor tweaks. They also did things like the commissar nerf which went way overboard and had to be corrected later although being honest I can’t remember if that was in CA or just around that time.

 

Either way, I’m only expecting a similar thing from this years CA, I really doubt we will see any big fixes or sweeping changes.

[BitsHammer]

Rules changes came out in the big FAQ IIRC.

[UnkyHamHam]

I'm of the opinion (as I've stated in many of these marine threads) that marines need teeth and flavor.

 

Bolt weapons honestly need a unique rule to separate them from las/auto weapons. Heck, a Heavy Stubber is better than a bolter. Stub guns used to be the exact stats of a Bolt Pistol.

 

Shuriken weapons have Bladestorm. Gauss Weapons have better AP. Pulse weapons have superior strength and range. Splinter weapons have poison. Lasguns and Shootas can be massed in high quantities. What does the flagship Boltgun have? Honestly nothing of note.

 

Give every bolt weapon a rule that makes it do an additional damage on the wound roll of a 6. Simple!

 

It gives marines potential in damage output and flavor. Chaos will love it with VotLW strat. Sisters will love it. Guard will actually have a reason to take the weapons if they choose.

 

And it also creates more design space in the Astartes arsenal. Assault cannons, Onslaught Cannons, and Frag Launchers won't have the rule. So there will actually be some breathing room there. Currently in the marine codex, I just feel everything is JUST a scale of various machine guns. And that is part of the bland issue with marine weaponry and bolters in particular.

 

I digress. But bolters need something. I think transplanting over the Transhuman Physiology rule from KT would help too. Chainswords need love too. I have been disappointed since 3rd edition when they decided to make them no different than a guardsman's bayonet.

[BitsHammer]

I don't think bolters should go to D2 on 6s. On the otherhand, increasing their AP by 1 on 6s would be good as it'd make every bolt weapon better. Granted that basically kills Storm of Wrath as a warlord trait, but it's a darn good rule and basically the only one worth taking for Primaris Marine armies.

[UnkyHamHam]

I don't think bolters should go to D2 on 6s. On the otherhand, increasing their AP by 1 on 6s would be good as it'd make every bolt weapon better. Granted that basically kills Storm of Wrath as a warlord trait, but it's a darn good rule and basically the only one worth taking for Primaris Marine armies.

I hear you, and thought the same as you at first. But in my opinion that isn't unique or good enough. I think the D2 represents well the dual lethality that is the damage from both the kinetic strike of the bolt and it subsequently detonating inside of the target.

 

And would like to keep Storm of Fire around to combo it. And then combo it with Sternguard, Bolter Drill, and Masterful Marksman lol.

[BitsHammer]

 

I don't think bolters should go to D2 on 6s. On the otherhand, increasing their AP by 1 on 6s would be good as it'd make every bolt weapon better. Granted that basically kills Storm of Wrath as a warlord trait, but it's a darn good rule and basically the only one worth taking for Primaris Marine armies.

I hear you, and thought the same as you at first. But in my opinion that isn't unique or good enough. I think the D2 represents well the dual lethality that is the damage from both the kinetic strike of the bolt and it subsequently detonating inside of the target.

 

And would like to keep Storm of Fire around to combo it. And then combo it with Sternguard, Bolter Drill, and Masterful Marksman lol.

 

I think my concern is that it hurts Primaris and Terminators even more in an edition that is full of D2 spam right now.

[UnkyHamHam]

 

 

 

I don't think bolters should go to D2 on 6s. On the otherhand, increasing their AP by 1 on 6s would be good as it'd make every bolt weapon better. Granted that basically kills Storm of Wrath as a warlord trait, but it's a darn good rule and basically the only one worth taking for Primaris Marine armies.

I hear you, and thought the same as you at first. But in my opinion that isn't unique or good enough. I think the D2 represents well the dual lethality that is the damage from both the kinetic strike of the bolt and it subsequently detonating inside of the target.

 

And would like to keep Storm of Fire around to combo it. And then combo it with Sternguard, Bolter Drill, and Masterful Marksman lol.

I think my concern is that it hurts Primaris and Terminators even more in an edition that is full of D2 spam right now.

This is true. Tho I'd hope, and have spoken many ideas before, that this wouldn't be in a vacuum.

 

I had the idea a while back to give a damage reduction of -1 to minimum of 1 to Terminators. I see your thread basically has the same rule.

 

So with that rule, it's basically negated. Primaris I am ok with them being weak to D2. They are actually good, so a points drop and some form of universal damage mitigation for Astartes would do the trick.

 

Ive posted much on the subject, and I've seen that you're doing the same.