Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Large data has been compiled - take a look at the latest episode of Chapter Tactics on the FLG website for a detailed overlook. -Astartes are no longer the most popular sub faction. Imperium is now ruled by Knights and Guard. -The Space marine codex has a win rate of 35% - this is worse than some index armies. The only codex that is worse are Grey Knights with a win rate of 20% -Eldar variants generally have a win rate of over 70% Only 3 Eldar lists lost more games than they won after 9 tournaments each comprising 40+ players. -Tau, without allies have a win rate in the mid 50s showing that a mono codex with no allies can indeed perform well if it's of sufficient Quality. Dark Eldar also perform incredibly well without needing allies and have multiple effective builds - one of the best books for sure. -Thousand Sons are the best performing Chaos Legion, ahead of Death Guard if looking at Primary detachments with a win rate of 56%. This is actually better performance than most factions. Worth listening to the podcast as the data is interesting and detailed, but it shows that Marines are in a sorry state outside of a few units! Blood Angels are generally the best performing Astartes faction at the moment. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Is this still subset data? Tournaments only? Important information, certainly, but Tournaments don't represent the entirety of the game, so folks should keep that lens in mind as they absorb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It isn’t the end of the world, but Eldar are somewhat disgusting (I,e, undercosted) and marines are bad. Not surprised at all to see IG and knights at the top of the imperial heap. I think a lot of this is just illustrating what most of us knew/suspected. I keep seeing ‘how do you beat dark Eldar?!?’ Discussions pop up on social media. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 It's tournament data but we're looking at a massive sample of lots of players, so it's a better indicator than anything a player can muster from their own experience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155606 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Its hard to collect data from garage game!. I wish I had acces to the data myself. Stats like that can be read in a variety of ways and there are some links I would like to explore. Still, it seems the awnser to "how to beat eldar?" Is to not play marines! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155656 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranulf Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It's tournament data but we're looking at a massive sample of lots of players, so it's a better indicator than anything a player can muster from their own experience. If it's taken purely from tournament data, then it's still only representative of tournament trends rather than the hobby as a whole, regardless of sample size. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155660 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 You can't use friendly games to measure performance. This is the best metric, even if it isn't a perfect representation of all local environments. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It’s interestig but it all kind of just confirms what we already knew/suspected anyway. You don’t need this to know that Eldar are overpowered/undercosted or that Marines, and definitely Grey Knights, are bottom tier. It seems like a lot of players might’ve gotten fed up with marines being so poor and switched to other factions which could explain the drop in popularity, that’s certainly the case for me. The question now is, what (if anything) will they do about it? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155687 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 They'll increase Guilliman's cost by 15 points and nerf a few of the Forgeworld options even more lol. I despair at this in honesty. I'm currently building a Mechanicus force to go with my Knights as there's no real point in trying to make Marines work as most armies trounce them without effort. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155688 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mileposter Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It's not the best metric, it's the only metric - that's the nature of the beast. No argument that it should be used and attention paid. Only wanted to emphasize that this data is indicative of the Tournament, the competitive scene, not the game as a whole - thus the data has that skew. It's important to keep that in mind when reviewing. This is more likely to reflect efficiency and perspective power rather than popularity or preference. The goal of the tournament scene is to win, after all. State of the Tournament, not State of the Game. Unless we're going to suggest that the game is the tournament... And that can of worms. Looking to the data itself, the larger pools definitely show where the greater power is - like others have said, no surprise seeing what we already know. Personal opinion I like that the game's lists have started varying among the factions a bit more. The listing is spread pretty wide. Shows that the top contenders don't have as large of a gap in front as they used to. Hopefully that trend will continue. I do expect that data such as this will see some attention paid to the Marines - though in what format that will take is obviously unknowable. Likely after initial release of the other Codices is my guess. Perhaps in time for Chapter Approved? GW's proven that they're at least paying attention to the pecking order recently, even if we don't all agree on what they've done in response to it, and CA hasn't been hinted much at yet. The mono vs allies discussion was the most interesting portion of the discussion, personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155698 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK0SIAN Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I don’t think we will see any radical changes in time for the next Chapter Approved, they’ll only just have managed to release all the codexes they’ve told us about by then and I don’t think they’ll have enough time to seriously look at the issues and test out meaningful solutions. Maybe the one after that though, I think marines will have at least another year of being low tier :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackTriton Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Honestly, if they take a few points from marines, necron and chaos marines and give them to eldary and smash captain I'll be happy to wait for the next meaningfull change. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Am I the only one that thinks point cost tweaks will be the main changes to space marines until new primaris units are available? I get the feeling that space marines are in a design transition and it’ll be another year before they can compete at the tourney level. I’m a little surprised by the comparative strength of Thousand Sons compared to their warp brethren, but I haven’t played in tournaments for years. Thanks for sharing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
point_Zer0 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Marines are actually so poor, that without imperial armor units you struggle even in friendly games. Because marines have predator and others have helverins, onager dune crawlers and leman russes. It's just a general example but every single codex has better and cheaper units than space marines. Devastators? Dark reapers say hello. Flyers maybe? Eldars are laughing outloud. Dreadnoughts? Tau suits giggle. And so on and so on. Just look at terminators - you hit on 4+ with a power fist, you do not have any ranged options. So, you deep strike and then you die even if you charged in. Just look at custodians - that's how you make a really good fighting-oriented unit. Damn, bulgrins are actually better... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155753 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 You can't use friendly games to measure performance. This is the best metric, even if it isn't a perfect representation of all local environments. This while true you should consider that an anti-meta list featuring a unit of 10 Blightlord terminators handily won the Bay Area Open including a crushing win versus Geoff Robinson in the final round . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155804 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 You can't use friendly games to measure performance. This is the best metric, even if it isn't a perfect representation of all local environments. This while true you should consider that an anti-meta list featuring a unit of 10 Blightlord terminators handily won the Bay Area Open including a crushing win versus Geoff Robinson in the final round . That list comprises all the most used units with the sole exception of the BlightLords who served a very specific purpose. It was 3 Knights, plague crawlers, Daemon Prince, drone. I'm a fan of the BlightLords, and they are far better than other Terminator variants. Tougher then Stormshield Termies but with shooting and a lower cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155806 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It was a soup list (Knights). It is IMO a fantasy to want a codex that can win on its own. The top eldar lists have a mix of Ynnari-Dark Eldar and sometimes some Harlequins. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155814 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Maybe, but Tau do well by themselves, as do mono DE and Eldar lists. I think we deserve better and GW need to address these issues faster. It's been a full year of the most popular faction being the weakest :-( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155816 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 It doesn't matter whether tournament data represents the whole game or not. This data clearly shows that Space Marines are performing really poorly in tournaments, and the logical answer to this is: "Hey, maybe Space Marines need to be looked at". That's it. Let's just agree on that and call it a day instead of leading each other down this goose chase of what can or can't represent 40k as a whole. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155818 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 To me this is another one of those threads if you catch my drift. Please don't get me wrong - I love Space Marines . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted August 28, 2018 Author Share Posted August 28, 2018 Oh I totally get it, this is pretty negative. I merely started this topic because this data has only just been released and the results are worse than I feared they would be. What's even more indicative of the problem is the fact that Astartes have fallen from the most popular faction all the way down to 6th. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155838 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 I think a difference of literally three and a half times the lowest performing SM Codex, GK's, compared to the front runner, Eldar, is not in the spirit of fair play. Still, the data is always changing, there's always exceptions, and there's always going to be the underdog, and the underperformer. The issue is the very real discrepancy between C:GK and C:Eldar/Craftworlds. 20% versus 70%. Yeesh. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155853 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 SM were not really competitive in 3rd or 5th edition. It happens from time to time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155865 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tamiel Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Threads like these may annoy people who roll their eyes and think "Ugh, another Space Marines are weak thread", but the truth is that these threads are necessary. Each thread like this is a voice from the community. It's feedback on the current state of the game, and it's feedback from one of the largest player bases in 40k - the Space Marine players. (That being said, even if it was from the smallest player base in 40k it would still be valid.)These threads should keep being made until GW addresses the balance problems that we as the community see. This is the most healthy way of doing things: You give feedback and the developer listens to your feedback and makes a smart decision. The more often the same piece of feedback keeps being brought up, the more likely it is that it will reach GW's ears. People gave negative feedback about unkillable deathstars with rerollable invuln saves, and GW addressed the issue. But it took a lot of feedback over a very long amount of time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155866 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Threads like these may annoy people who roll their eyes and think "Ugh, another Space Marines are weak thread", but the truth is that these threads are necessary. Each thread like this is a voice from the community. It's feedback on the current state of the game, and it's feedback from one of the largest player bases in 40k - the Space Marine players. (That being said, even if it was from the smallest player base in 40k it would still be valid.) These threads should keep being made until GW addresses the balance problems that we as the community see. This is the most healthy way of doing things: You give feedback and the developer listens to your feedback and makes a smart decision. The more often the same piece of feedback keeps being brought up, the more likely it is that it will reach GW's ears. People gave negative feedback about unkillable deathstars with rerollable invuln saves, and GW addressed the issue. But it took a lot of feedback over a very long amount of time. Bang that drum bruh ... bang it hard . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/349931-the-state-of-the-game/#findComment-5155868 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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