Dark Talon vs Bike Squad

[Angel of Solitude]

I've taken at least Dark Talon with me pretty much every game I've played, but I don't think I've had the success from it that others say they have. Admittedly I'm not a brilliant player, but it feels like everybody knows what the Dark Talon does, so becomes number 1 target straight away. Plus, I usually have Sammy/Talonmaster/Darkshroud trying to buff it, but managing all those units together feels like too much hard work.

 

I also know that bikes don't get much love at the moment, but I had a thought: by my reckoning, a squad of 4 bikers, with an attack bike (multi-melta) and storm-bolter for the sergeant rocks in at 174 points. For this, you're getting 14 bolter shots (28 rapid fire) and 1 multi-melta shot.

 

Pros against Dark Talon:

- Cheaper

- Same base range if turbo-boost

- 4 more 12" range bolter shots

- 2 more wounds to absorb

- No degradation of BS as more wounds are taken

- 4++ from jink

- Still benefit from Sammy/Talonmaster

- 6" extra range from multi-melta vs Rift

- Further reach from auras, as only need 1 model to be within 6"

- Not immediately identified as a threat on T1

- Able to make better use of cover

 

Cons against Dark Talon:

- Only Heavy 1 vs Heavy 3

- No source of mortal wounds

- No -1 to hit if supersonic

- No +1 to hit from strafing run

- Losing wounds = losing models = losing firepower

- Can be charged by all units

- T5 vs T6

 

Does anybody have any practical experience of the differences between these two combos?

 

 

[Berzul]

Ok so,

 

First, what do you mean bikes don't get much love?! Bikes are like THE MAIN REASON to play DA at the moment! I think you are mixing up the DW with the RW, my friend.

 

Now, a Dark Talon and a Ravenwing Bike Squad serve different purposes, I feel. It's not about what is best, but rather, what you are using it for.

 

Bikes I feel are flanking and shocking units. The Dark Talon is all about flying over the enemy lines on a bombing run, then clearing backline support units. Max move, no need to maneuver around terrain, awesome heavy weapon teams and heavy tank killing capabilities.

 

You start it next to a Darkshroud to get another -1 to be hit. Now it serves as a bullet magnet turn one because people WILL want to bring it down. That covers your bikes.

 

Then you move forward and break frontal lines with a bomb run while jinking, before focusing on heavy weapons teams on turn two, while your bikes press the assault.

 

Then you enjoy a sip of your victory drink, served in the skull of your enemy warlord.

 

... I mean, you kneel down and pray the victory as an offering to the Emperor. Yes. And you do it grimly. Very grimly.

 

P.S.: Remember that the entire bike sqaud must be entirelu in the terrain to get cover. Which is hard to near impossible most times. It can benefit from LoS blocking terrain better than the Dsrk Talon, though.

[Angel of Solitude]

You see, this is the exact reason that I like this place. In this one post, you've given me some great tips on how better to deploy my forces and get those synergies. I think my problem has been not really understanding the exact role that each unit should play. I've also been more obsessed with keeping the Dark Talon within the Sammy/Talonmaster bubble that I've sacrificed too much of the unique benefits of the Dark Talon.

 

What is your view on the bikes in combat?

[Berzul]

The Dark Talon, by nature of being a Flyer, will always struggle on a leash.

 

Use your bubbles for your bikes, and let the Dark Talon soar the skies, as it should.

 

That is not to say you should be cavalier with how you position it, but the air support is definetly not meant to go 20 inches at a time right next to your bikes and commande. It can move up to 60, and has short ranged rapid fire weapons, after all. You do the math there.

 

As for bikes, a team of 8 bikers with chainswords will dish out 17 attacks with the sgt., Only at S4 AP0, but still. Can do great versus weaker enemies lime guardsmen, gaunts, firewarriors and the like.

 

But, regular bikers are definetly a unit to use close but in shooting. 8 bikes with a storm bolter means over 30 shots at rapid fire. I've cleared even squads of power armored infantry with that kind of shot saturation.

 

If you want to go melee with bikes, use Black Knights. Maybe with a Power Sword on the sgt, although I think corvus hammers are amazing as they are. Add a RW Champion (my favourite champion) and you will see how much melee damage you can do. His blade is one to be feared, trust me.

[Wrath of Bruinen]

Berzul has some great points, but let me offer a few of my own.

 

First, the 'advancing bombing run' is a great strategy. However, we can take it one step further by then using speed of the raven to allow the Dark Talon to shoot as normal at point blank range. Going yet another step further, if your opponent isn't careful with their positioning, you can actually use this to snipe characters, who are often deployed behind the front lines to protect them, but flying over everything to make the character the closest enemy model. Kill their warlord and a bunch of troops, and then watch them squirm as they try and get through -1 to hit, and 4++.

 

Second, while it's a challenge to keep the DT in range of buffs, it is definitely possible, especially in the traditional 'dawn of war' deployment type. Put your dark talon with the 'long part' of its base touching the back part of your deployment zone. Then, deploy your dark shroud (and characters) 6" forward from there. (It's a little tricky to explain what I mean here, but if you are familiar with the x-wing miniatures game, look at how players often deploy facing parallel to the deployment zone line, and then use their first few turns of movement to 'turn in' to the main battle.) On your first turn, advance your dark shroud (you should always do this anyway) and move it as far as you can. Then, use your 90 degree pivot on the dark talon to face the centre of the board, and move 20+". You should be able to move the minimum distance and still be in range of all the buffs. 

 

It takes quite a bit of practice to get the manoeuvring right, but it is possible and well worth it. The main thing is to have a clear idea in your mind about the flight path of your dark talon, and then plan ahead so that your shroud and heroes can get into position early. The other thing to think about is to weigh the pros and cons of staying in buffing range but being unable to make full use of your weapons, versus flying forward and getting into position to unload all your guns. This will depend on the enemy you are facing, etc.

 

Third, in my opinion, taking only one dark talon is asking for trouble. I always take at least two (prior to the FAQ points increase I always took 3, but now that's a tougher call to make) - that way, if your opponent blows up one, you've still got one that can unleash the pain.

[MaxB]

Berzul has given you some good advice re the units different roles.

 

Just to throw back to your orginal post - the Dark Talon can still get Jink, and it's movement is a huge advantage over bikes allowing you to target what you want (except where screened out). If you plan to use Speed of the Raven you effectively have a 72" range to get into rapid fire.

 

And from experience I very rarely assault with Bikes (Black Knights included) - they generally just die that turn or the next, or get tied up. Their best output is shooting.

[domsto]

This Topic is very interesting to read, because everybody seems very happy with the Dark Talon. I played him yesterday and i was disappointed as always with him and he did not make his points back. not even close. i thought the Dark Talon with his point high after the big FAQ became Unplayable. guess i am wrong

I mean i do all this Tactics mention before but still he doesn't seem to be big of a threat to everything tougher than a Guardsman.

 

But to stay in Topic

I would go with the Bikes.

They are easier to buff and to move

[Hantheman]

I run both, although without an attack bike.

 

Dark Talon is phenomenal to be honest. Watch tabletoptactics (the best batreps around), their latest is Ravenwing vs Ulthwé. Lawrence runs three dark talons and they do work.

 

As Bezrul said, they have different rolls. The bikes are an annoyance for my enemy, plinking off wounds, trying things up in combat and protecting Sammael. The Dark Talon, if left alive will win me a game. I pretty much always, advance it first turn with speed of the raven. Giving it a 4++ makes it a lot harder to kill.

[Berzul]

Of all of this units, I'd say the attack bike is probably the least useful, to be honest.

[Angel of Solitude]

Ok so now I feel really dumb. I hadn't twigged that the Dark Talon can Jink and get a 4++. Combined with speed of the Raven, I can understand how this can be so devastating! Likewise, keeping the Dark Talon within a buff bubble seriously restricts the impact of the Dark Talon. 60" range, 4++ and rapid fire range...yup, that changes things a bit.

 

In terms of attack bikes, the one thing I'd say in their defence is the 4 wounds. I love the look on the opponent's face when they think they've taken out a bike, only to realise they've just knocked the attack bike down to a single wound. However, I'd have to look at the points trade off of bringing another bike instead; with Sammy and Talonmaster rocking around, the additional Heavy Bolter may not be worth it.

[Berzul]

Its about cost.

 

Ill usually take them, if I bring a RW Apothecary.

 

An attack bike can withstand up to 3 wounds (which indules a maximized regular smite), and be brought back. It becomes a good wound sink unit. In those cases, I'd take them cheap, with just the Heavy Bolters.

 

A Heavy 3 weapon has better chances to hit, also, over a Heavy 1. With they BS penalized all the time as they move, this becomes important to consider.

 

With a HB they sinergize well with the bolters on the bikes, against light troops.

 

But, one Attack Bike is 2 bikers. For the cost of a coupme of then, I can bring an extra 4 bike squad.

 

Also, a Predator or some Devastators can work better against armor than that onr Multi Melta on the Attack Bike.

[Solrac]

Dark Talons shouldn't just be zoomed up the other end of the board to drop a bomb and shoot for 1 turn for them to die turn 2.

 

You need to play smarter, If you do the above your opponent can kill it easily as enough small arms fire and or smites will bring it down anyway as it will be in range of most of their army.

 

Holding the talon back by hovering near the Darkshroud and advancing for the jink will keep it alive as your opponent will have to decide whether or not to shoot their long range weapons at it.

 

You especially hold them back if your opponent has a lot of deepstriking units as you will be able to drop bombs and shoot them withut having to go to your opponents table edge after they arrive.

 

The Darktalon doesn't need to be killing things every turn to make their points back. It just has to be alive long enough to make an impact in the game.

[Berzul]

Well, no strategy for a specific unit should be considered in a bubble. You should play the Dark Talon in a way that fits your overall army.

I have had good results with using it as a vector strike unit turn 1, as a flanking menace throughout the battle, and as a backline support gun battery. Scenario, terrain, opponent and objectives count for a lot.

 

My main point is that you should play the Dark Talon as a Dark Talon, and Bikes as Bikes. If you want a Dark Talon to outperform a bike squad, in what the Bike Squad is most suited for, you are kinda starting from a bad position to begin with.