"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Panzer]

I'm loving the idea of scoring extra VPs on objectives, but I wonder if that might actually make Tacticals TOO good.  Maybe it should just be limited to Seize and Hold style objectives (ie, the numbered ones?)

 

Well that would be something for the balancing team to figure out by actually testing various versions of it I guess. The more I think about it the more I like it tho.

[RandomMarine]

Random idea pretty quick and dirty but what about -1s to incoming fire and a small price drop for now with a full rework of chapter tactics and strategies with the primaris wave 2 codex

[spessmarine]

These are definitely fair points. And I totally get it, and see that people prefer simplicity. This is probably why 8th is more widely accepted than 7th was. I for one loved all the flavor in terms of detachments, formations, and relics and traits every chapter had in 7th. I also love the beautiful complexity that is 30k.

 

So definitely call me inspired by those design choices to inject some actual fun technical play into what is the most boring and mundane army in the game. My favorite army, and my favorite unit, and with so much potential considering their lore.

 

It's honestly a shame. I know you guys are absolutely right that GW will continue to keep marines basic, simple, and samey to help recruit new players. But that really does depress me. Now having experienced 7th and 30k and what could be.

 

I appreciate all of your feedback.

 

I don't disagree that C:SM is bland.

It is just a solution shouldn't overcomplicate the most basic unit

[Panzer]

Random idea pretty quick and dirty but what about -1s to incoming fire and a small price drop for now with a full rework of chapter tactics and strategies with the primaris wave 2 codex

-1S against shooting is basically the same as straight out giving them T5 for the most part and that's already Deathguards thing.

[Lemondish]

Plague Marines are Marines with added abilities. They are 100% related and any change to the base stats will be reflected in Plague Marines as well.

Where is this even coming from? It's madness. Plague Marines are a unit with a data sheet. Tactical Marines are a unit with a data sheet. That's all they have in common.

 

They aren't in the same codex, in the same army, carry the same abilities, or stats, or wargear, or model kits, or synergies.

 

They're two different units with two different data sheets and two different points costs contained in two different books. They can, have, and will continue to be balanced on their own regardless of what happens to the other. There's no hierarchy that exists, and even if there were, there's no law forbidding altering it.

 

You know what, I'm done trying to explain this. You can keep thinking there's some kind of unwritten rule for marines having to stay in lockstep and I'll keep thinking that's ridiculous.

 

 

 

The important part you seem to miss in every single one of these discussions is that the gap is too wide right now. It isn't right where it should be.

Even if you get the gap in power small enough from custodes and large enough from guard, it is besides the point. Theoretically you could have everything have identical power per point: identical shooting damage, identical survival per point. The thing is that the purpose of troops units like tactical squads is board control, and with the rules as they are that relies on model count, so it doesn't matter if they have identical damage and survival per point because elite models will always have less board control per point. The relative eliteness regarding wounds is secondary to that problem.

Yes, exactly! That's what I'm saying. There's value in board control so elite armies that can't cover the field need to be significantly more efficient elsewhere at that. Absent changes to the points cost of cheaper troops like guard to correctly point this value, elite armies need staying power above and beyond being equal. Ideally, over the course of the game, their contribution to board control should be improved because of their staying power so that they contribute more into the later turns as attrition impacts both forces.

[Ishagu]

A plague marine is a veteran space marine with extra rules and toughness and it has been this way for as long as they have existed.

 

If a regular space marine has their base stats altered it would have to impact the Plague marines and any other Marine +1 variants that exist across the different factions.

 

I'm not sure why this is hard to grasp. The fact it's a different data sheet doesn't alter the fact that the unit is related. It's like a Razorback and a Rhino. The chassis is the same and changes to the statline of one would be carried across to the other.

[Captain Idaho]

You can't use Rhinos and Razorbacks as the example since Hunters, Predators, Vindicators and Stalkers all have the same chassis.

 

***

 

There is no rule stating all Marines need to have the same stats across the board, but let's get practical here - GW aren't going to change from their unwritten, self imposed rule to keep Marines the same across the board.

 

My question would be... what's the problem with Death Guard getting an extra wound if Marines did? *mind blown*

 

Not that I agree they should get a 2nd wound. Hell in a world where I'm King we'd see Power and Terminator armour ignore armour save modifiers from weapons that weren't flagged as AT (anti tank) and I'd introduce that mechanic to most vehicles throughout the game along with weapons being labeled as AT etc...

[spessmarine]

Ishagu isn't wrong in his statements.

Cult marines having less wounds than tacticals would be weird.

 

Hence why as far as I can tell, a well thought out AoD/Traitors supplement is the best way to address multiple issues. If you bake buffs into supplements/Chapter Traits, you forego having to redo every other instance of that unit.

You wanna buff terminators for instance, is it easier to adjust every instance of terminator in a plethora of codices/indices or to tack onto say the IH tactic in a supplement "IH terminators replace the 6++ with a 5++". Just an example not the buff I suggest.

[Ishagu]

For the record I never once said all Marine variants should have the same stats.

 

I pointed out that the basic vanilla Marine is the base line for other Astartes variants, loyalist and traitor, and the more exotic types are upgrades of that basic profile.

[Beta galactosidase]

 

 

The important part you seem to miss in every single one of these discussions is that the gap is too wide right now. It isn't right where it should be.

Even if you get the gap in power small enough from custodes and large enough from guard, it is besides the point. Theoretically you could have everything have identical power per point: identical shooting damage, identical survival per point. The thing is that the purpose of troops units like tactical squads is board control, and with the rules as they are that relies on model count, so it doesn't matter if they have identical damage and survival per point because elite models will always have less board control per point. The relative eliteness regarding wounds is secondary to that problem.

Yes, exactly! That's what I'm saying. There's value in board control so elite armies that can't cover the field need to be significantly more efficient elsewhere at that. Absent changes to the points cost of cheaper troops like guard to correctly point this value, elite armies need staying power above and beyond being equal. Ideally, over the course of the game, their contribution to board control should be improved because of their staying power so that they contribute more into the later turns as attrition impacts both forces.

 

 

Yeah maybe they should be more efficient per point, however there's something wrong with the game that stops that from even being the case now.  They have flat out better values on their profile than GEqs or orks, but these numbers don't make a much of a difference.  They are a unit with bolters and a lascannon, so if you gave them even four or five attacks per model, that wouldn't help them do their shooting job very much, and if you maxed out their BS to 2+, they wouldn't be notably powerful, really.  With even those improvements pretty impotent, it's no wonder that their existing high value stats don't do much, even though they are markedly higher than other models. This is a main rulebook problem, putting +1 wound on the basic loyalist marine isn't able to address the un-scary offense that doesn't compensate for their poor board control.

 

 

There is no rule stating all Marines need to have the same stats across the board, but let's get practical here - GW aren't going to change from their unwritten, self imposed rule to keep Marines the same across the board.

 

Sounds like cop talk.

[Panzer]

I see it the same as Ishagu, however with one difference. I'm not against Death Guard and TSons Marines with an additional wounds per-se. I know why he's concerned about it since more wounds make other rules that increase durability (T5, Disgustingly Resilient, All is Dust) even better. However if they turn out to be too durable for their points GW could always increase their points again. Step by step is how balancing works. I for one rather have really durable Marines for more points than cheap Marines who die like flies. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

Let's be honest - Death Guard and Thousand Sons aren't over powered themselves! Everyone takes cheap cultists and Pox Walkers etc. So yes, 2 wound Death Guard might make them more appealing which is ideal since the book is Codex Death Guard and not Codex Pox Walkers.

[Ishagu]

Marines need a drop and cheap infantry needs to rise.

 

It's why points exist. If a Dreadnought was 40 points with all weapons we'd all be spamming them. Let's allow GW to adjust the meta.

 

As for Marines feeling more elite, maybe if they aren't outnumbered 3 to 1 by everything in the game they will feel as such once again.

[Captain Idaho]

That doesn't much make sense. If we have a horde of Marines they certainly won't feel elite.

 

Points drops is a plaster fix. It gets us by but I'd argue that it doesn't solve a problem.

 

Dare I say it, what with Primaris taking over GW and a boring and uninspired Codex... I'm actually losing interest in 40K. Does it matter about little old me? Arguably not. I could be representative of a wider discontent or the numbers buying into GW through inflated Primaris prices eclipse my own suppressed purchases.

 

We don't know of course but let's hope GW turns it around as this game is almost feeling like 7th Edition to me now...

[Ishagu]

What if Marines SHOULD be dying in droves?

 

8th edition corresponds with the new Dark Imperium setting. The galaxy is sundered in two, entire chapters wiped out without a trace, thousands of worlds lost.

This isn't a setting where a few squads of Astartes are enough to hold back the horrors of the galaxy anymore.

 

I finished the book "Dark Imperium: Plague War", and I have to tell you - it's pretty dire and Astartes are barely able to fight against the enemies that challenge them. One could just as easily argue that the tabletop game where everything is getting killed is a more accurate reflection of the current lore. Guilliman himself says it's worse than it was during the Horus Heresy.

 

If an Astartes is worth their points and can do a job on the tabletop that's comparable to other more efficient troop options then I'll be a lot happier than I am now. Everyone would.

[Panzer]

What if Marines SHOULD be dying in droves?

 

 

Then I'd probably stop playing Marines because that's not what I want from my Marine army. I can use my T'au Firewarriors for that.

[Ishagu]

lol, I'm only playing Devil's advocate.

 

I agree that units should represent their lore on the tabletop, but GW might not be able to fix that in a Chapter Approved. I'm just saying that we should accept that fixing the game balance is the next best thing and is actually a likely outcome.

[Panzer]

Oh I'm really not expecting Chapter Approved to fix anything beyond adjusting points. The issue with Marines and the amount of Codexes proper changes would affect goes way too deep for that.

[Tamiel]

I've lost a lot of interest in playing the game over 8th edition. I used to play very frequently in 7th, and this new style of "bring allies or get the out" mentality that 8th has is not sitting well with me. If you want to be competitive at all, this unwritten rule is almost enforced.

I also really hate the "You better not bring any power armour in your lists" rule that seems to be prevalent in 8th. Unless it's a smash captain or a custodes, power armour units seem to be going extinct in 8th. Every time we see Space Marines it's scouts. Every time we see Chaos Space Marines, it's cultists or demons. Where the hell did power armour go?

[justicarius6]

That doesn't much make sense. If we have a horde of Marines they certainly won't feel elite.

 

Points drops is a plaster fix. It gets us by but I'd argue that it doesn't solve a problem.

 

Dare I say it, what with Primaris taking over GW and a boring and uninspired Codex... I'm actually losing interest in 40K. Does it matter about little old me? Arguably not. I could be representative of a wider discontent or the numbers buying into GW through inflated Primaris prices eclipse my own suppressed purchases.

 

We don't know of course but let's hope GW turns it around as this game is almost feeling like 7th Edition to me now...

In a sad way the Custodes feel as elite as Space Marines should have always been. Instead of pulling a new codex out of their arse just to represent an army that shouldn't realistically be on the field anyways, they should have just modelled the Space Marines for this edition on the plans they had for Custodes.

[Tamiel]

 

That doesn't much make sense. If we have a horde of Marines they certainly won't feel elite.

 

Points drops is a plaster fix. It gets us by but I'd argue that it doesn't solve a problem.

 

Dare I say it, what with Primaris taking over GW and a boring and uninspired Codex... I'm actually losing interest in 40K. Does it matter about little old me? Arguably not. I could be representative of a wider discontent or the numbers buying into GW through inflated Primaris prices eclipse my own suppressed purchases.

 

We don't know of course but let's hope GW turns it around as this game is almost feeling like 7th Edition to me now...

In a sad way the Custodes feel as elite as Space Marines should have always been. Instead of pulling a new codex out of their arse just to represent an army that shouldn't realistically be on the field anyways, they should have just modelled the Space Marines for this edition on the plans they had for Custodes.

 

The thing is even Custodes don't seem to do well by themselves. I rarely see a full custodes army (competitive or otherwise). One of the defining features of Space Marines is that they're supposed to be self-sufficient on the battlefield.

[justicarius6]

The thing is even Custodes don't seem to do well by themselves. I rarely see a full custodes army (competitive or otherwise). One of the defining features of Space Marines is that they're supposed to be self-sufficient on the battlefield.

But they don't do terrible, especially in the killing stakes.

[Lemondish]

For the record I never once said all Marine variants should have the same stats.

 

I pointed out that the basic vanilla Marine is the base line for other Astartes variants, loyalist and traitor, and the more exotic types are upgrades of that basic profile.

Then bless the emperor for Primaris, because now we can finally let go of this needless, idiotic self-imposed limitation.

[Panzer]

Custodes feel like movie marines, but honestly I think Primaris do a well enough job to feel like Marines and that seems to be what most people were thinking when Primaris got released even with their original higher points.

Yes, there is lots of D2 and D1d3 out there, but mostly in competetive lists because of Plasma and Autocannon spam. In casual and semi-competetive lists you see a lot less of those and way more D1 weapons so the W2 stat actually sees use.

[Beta galactosidase]

Yes it's not necessary to have a universal baseline marine. Also even if you do have one, there can also be negatives.  Plague marines had initiative 3 in more than one book.

 

I'd love to see a chaos marine scum troops choice with bs 4+ and ld5.