"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Panzer]

The thing is, Marines are supposed to be good at everything according to the fluff.

[Ishagu]

I believe that Chapter Approved will make Astartes more competitive, no question.

 

I seriously doubt it will make the army less boring. It's so utterly dull right now. The Ork rules and strats look so fun and varied. Multiple lists and tactics are possible.

 

Chapter Approved will need to:

 

1: Revamp All Chapter Tactics. Seriously improve them and make them impact vehicles.

 

2: Scrap most strategems completely and replace them with a new set that affect more units and in more dynamic ways.

 

3: Same with Psychic Powers

 

4: Point reduction across the board, every single unit. In some cases the points should be reduced to a fraction of their current cost.

 

 

Unless the above happen the Marine codex is still going to be boring trash with limited effective tactics.

 

I want to be able to teleport in Dreadnoughts and Guilliman and make 3D6" charges. If a bloody Gorkanaught can do it this shouldn't be a problem.

[Panzer]

Aka you want the CA to include a new Marine Codex. ^^

It's needed but has no place in the CA and won't happen. We'll see how long it takes GW to release another Codex of the ones they've already released for 8th.

[Ishagu]

Pretty much! Lol

[Xisor]

Those things are all achievable without a Codex.

 

Deck of updated Marine Cards to introduce flavourful stratagems & psychic powers of "serious" quality.

A quick 'errata' of the Tactics to apply more widely.

 

And given that 8th Edition Codex: Deathwatch was basically an almost word-for-word reprint of 7th Ed DW, I could stomach the above being done without a Codex release.

 

It'd be cheaper buy a new stack of cards, and have a sensible errata to the Chapter Tactics. CA points adjustments would be about anyway. Ta-da!

 

----

 

Chapter Master 454 raises an interesting point (and not just because Location: Fife) - that in the background, Marines are basically alpha strike masters. The way to beat them is to survive the alpha strike.

 

Whilst in principle that's great and should be very cinematic and exciting, I don't know if anybody genuinely enjoys playing out a game that's been wholly decided on turn one.

 

With the modifications to blunt alpha strikes, it hypothetically could play well. Less a singular alpha strike, more an ability to quickly deploy and not be too confined to one place.

 

Actually, that might tally nicely with extending chapter tactics to vehicles. And a lot of the alpha strike viability really comes in the form of stratagems... so a focus of that sort in stratagems might be actually fairly viable.

 

Hmm, could it be done?

 

CA (for points/errata) + a new stratagems deck, it *could* refocus the flavour and the feel, going from 'plain and lacklustre' to 'oooh!'.

 

Maybe, maybe...

[Ishagu]

GW, if you are listening:

 

We will all pay £60 or more for this book if it fixes the Marine codex properly lol

[Halandaar]

GW, if you are listening:

 

We will all pay £60 or more for this book if it fixes the Marine codex properly lol

 

Speak for yourself.

[Basteala]

 

GW, if you are listening:

 

We will all pay £60 or more for this book if it fixes the Marine codex properly lol

 

Speak for yourself.

 

 

Hey I certainly will Maybe not for the price of 3 codexes, but certainly for the price of one for a revamped DA one.

 

PS. Why so much obsession with Fallen for game mechanics? I get it fits the fluff, but would it kill you to make it heretic astartes? I've faced against Fallen...let's see...never.

[spessmarine]

Can't say a codex becoming obsolete/replaced so soon will sit well with many.

 

I'd rather a supplement, it can cover most of the complaints.

Somewhat more complicated tactics, that we can probably brainstorm ourselves.

Maybe two strategems, warlord traits, relics added per chapter. Around there

Points drop split over chapter approved and the supplement, actually, all changes grouped up in the supplement so you just need codex+supplement.

 

And voila

[TheTrans]

Could we not give marines something like -1 to wound by weapons of S6 or less or something to show they're are tougher than an equivalent ork boy? 

[autek mor]

possible ideas to improve marine alpha strike.

 

1. allow assault and vanguard marines to have an extra shot with their pistols in the first phase of combat they enter, this may encourage players to take plasma pistols more often and either a rule or a stratagem that represents the whole jump pack equipped squads throwing a hail of krak grenades at the target which would deal D3 mortal wounds on a successful charge.

 

2. tactical marines and intercessors get +1 to hit and to wound when near 6 inches of an objective through either rule or strategem. also allow more weapon options for both squads.

 

3. a stratagem for a unit of devastators or hellblasters to fire twice regardless if they had moved in the movement phase.

 

4. a stratagem that allows terminators to re-roll failed armour saves for a turn only after deep striking. the second roll must be accepted and no further command points may be used to re-roll failed normal armour saves while the stratagem is still in play. in narrative terms this would be either the terminators getting shot to bits and fighting on or some kind of device being used to temporarily blind the opposing force immediately following the teleportation. also allow cataphracti and tartaros terminators more weapon options.

 

wishful thinking i know.

[Margulix]

I'd go for 4 things. (apart from price reduction, tac marine should cost 8-9 pts)

 

1. ATSKNF should be like "Ignore morale completely".  The rule of marines running away is utterly stupid. 

2. Ignore move penalty for heavy weapons all across the codex for vehicles.

3. Full revamp of chapter tactics.

4. more weapon options for tacticals. Old relic are relic of previous editions.

 

Also i'm frustrated with fall back. Can we get a rule that if unit fall backs, other unit gets a free shooting with pistols into it? This will give a slight buff to units with cc role like crusader squads, scouts with ccw and etc.

[Panzer]

I'd go for 4 things. (apart from price reduction, tac marine should cost 8-9 pts)

 

1. ATSKNF should be like "Ignore morale completely".  The rule of marines running away is utterly stupid. 

2. Ignore move penalty for heavy weapons all across the codex for vehicles.

3. Full revamp of chapter tactics.

4. more weapon options for tacticals. Old relic are relic of previous editions.

 

Also i'm frustrated with fall back. Can we get a rule that if unit fall backs, other unit gets a free shooting with pistols into it? This will give a slight buff to units with cc role like crusader squads, scouts with ccw and etc.

 

1. I disagree LD needs to become MORE important in the game, not less. Lets not go back to 7th edition in that regard (although we are already almost there...). GW gave us lots of explanations how a failed moral test could be interpreted for Marines. It's not always just running away. Also with ATSKNF, their high LD and the general MSU thing they already are basically immune to it anyway.

2. I could live with that even as Marine opponent I guess. At least their vehicles should have that. Just make Power of the Machine Spirit into an army-wide special rule for all Marine vehicles.

 

 

Would be nice if falling back would require a LD test imo. Not every unit has pistols so a change to a free shooting wouldn't work for lots of units.

[Margulix]

 

I'd go for 4 things. (apart from price reduction, tac marine should cost 8-9 pts)

 

1. ATSKNF should be like "Ignore morale completely".  The rule of marines running away is utterly stupid. 

2. Ignore move penalty for heavy weapons all across the codex for vehicles.

3. Full revamp of chapter tactics.

4. more weapon options for tacticals. Old relic are relic of previous editions.

 

Also i'm frustrated with fall back. Can we get a rule that if unit fall backs, other unit gets a free shooting with pistols into it? This will give a slight buff to units with cc role like crusader squads, scouts with ccw and etc.

 

1. I disagree LD needs to become MORE important in the game, not less. Lets not go back to 7th edition in that regard (although we are already almost there...). GW gave us lots of explanations how a failed moral test could be interpreted for Marines. It's not always just running away. Also with ATSKNF, their high LD and the general MSU thing they already are basically immune to it anyway.

2. I could live with that even as Marine opponent I guess. At least their vehicles should have that. Just make Power of the Machine Spirit into an army-wide special rule for all Marine vehicles.

 

 

Would be nice if falling back would require a LD test imo. Not every unit has pistols so a change to a free shooting wouldn't work for lots of units.

 

 

At least that will make a cc units more dangerous in close combat. Those units suffered hard because they lost +1A for pistol (for special weapons like fist and pw it was critical) in cc and they lost +1A on charge. Yes they can shoot pistol into cc but it rarely happens - everyone falls back nowadays.

[Panzer]

 

 

I'd go for 4 things. (apart from price reduction, tac marine should cost 8-9 pts)

 

1. ATSKNF should be like "Ignore morale completely".  The rule of marines running away is utterly stupid. 

2. Ignore move penalty for heavy weapons all across the codex for vehicles.

3. Full revamp of chapter tactics.

4. more weapon options for tacticals. Old relic are relic of previous editions.

 

Also i'm frustrated with fall back. Can we get a rule that if unit fall backs, other unit gets a free shooting with pistols into it? This will give a slight buff to units with cc role like crusader squads, scouts with ccw and etc.

 

1. I disagree LD needs to become MORE important in the game, not less. Lets not go back to 7th edition in that regard (although we are already almost there...). GW gave us lots of explanations how a failed moral test could be interpreted for Marines. It's not always just running away. Also with ATSKNF, their high LD and the general MSU thing they already are basically immune to it anyway.

2. I could live with that even as Marine opponent I guess. At least their vehicles should have that. Just make Power of the Machine Spirit into an army-wide special rule for all Marine vehicles.

 

 

Would be nice if falling back would require a LD test imo. Not every unit has pistols so a change to a free shooting wouldn't work for lots of units.

 

 

At least that will make a cc units more dangerous in close combat. Those units suffered hard because they lost +1A for pistol (for special weapons like fist and pw it was critical) in cc and they lost +1A on charge. Yes they can shoot pistol into cc but it rarely happens - everyone falls back nowadays.

 

 

Yeah but not every cc unit has pistols. Also at least we can strike first when we charge now instead of running into blades and getting our hammer and fist guys killed before they can swing. I like that a lot more than getting +1A on the charge ^^

[Captain Idaho]

A main game rule that a Ld check needs to be taken to fall back would be golden. I also believe a Ld check for shooting at a unit that isn't the closest should be taken. Make Ld worth something again.

 

As for what makes Marines better... remember the Codex Space Marines Amendments thread I made. That.

[Lemondish]

A main game rule that a Ld check needs to be taken to fall back would be golden. I also believe a Ld check for shooting at a unit that isn't the closest should be taken. Make Ld worth something again.

 

As for what makes Marines better... remember the Codex Space Marines Amendments thread I made. That.

How would that work, though? Pass the leadership test, you run away? Seems... counterintuitive.

[Captain Idaho]

It's not counter intuitive. The moral phase tests to see if your models run away.

 

If your models want to fall back from an assault in an orderly fashion and still be fighting ready they should pass a Ld check.

[Guest]

 

A main game rule that a Ld check needs to be taken to fall back would be golden. I also believe a Ld check for shooting at a unit that isn't the closest should be taken. Make Ld worth something again.

As for what makes Marines better... remember the Codex Space Marines Amendments thread I made. That.

How would that work, though? Pass the leadership test, you run away? Seems... counterintuitive.

It makes sense. It takes organization to due a proper fallback, otherwise it's just a rout. If you fail to pull back together properly and in unison you are just asking for the enemy to kill stragglers, and regroup themselves for another charge.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Yeah! Bring back leadership checks to fall, wait, what? Back!? BACK!

 

YOU FALL FORWARDS TOWARDS THE FILTH!! THERE IS NO BACK!

[Margulix]

About fall backs - i see a problem that unit who was locked in combat has no 3 inches regroup after other unit falls back.

 

This stinks for melee armies - you cannot cover your characters and take better position as you dudes are staying there as idiots (sometimes even without coherence).

 

To summarise how to buff cc a bit:

1. Fall back - via Ld test.

2. Pistols can shoot into falling back enemies (maybe via stratagem).

3. 3' of regrouping after the falling back.

 

We;ll this could make my Templar life a bit better.

Still if crusader squad have more attacks and have options like taking full squad of ps (i usually have no problem to get into charge but those guys usually do nothing), would be great too.

[Panzer]

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

[Margulix]

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

 

 

Unless you have fly. Or stratagem. Or chapter tactics. Or have another shooty unit nearby to kill the enemy. With all those exceptions its not that punishing really.

[Panzer]

 

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

 

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

 

Unless you have fly. Or stratagem. Or chapter tactics. Or have another shooty unit nearby to kill the enemy. With all those exceptions its not that punishing really.

I said to be locked in melee, not to fall back.