"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Lemondish]

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

 

 

Exactly this. 

 

But I think this is ultimately getting too far away from 'fixing' the Marine codex and into 'fixing' 40k's core rules. 

 

I'd honestly look to Kill Team as a great test bed for the future regarding that topic, but I'm not sure this is the best thread for this. Is there one that might be better?

 

Regarding Marines - I wonder if resurrecting the 'Index' one more time is the best way to go as it could include updated rules, strats, relics, traits, and data sheets for every Adeptus Astartes unit all in one book if you ditch the fluff. 

[Captain Idaho]

Ah I miss the excitement of the old Index articles.

 

A nice supplement wouldn't go a miss though.

[BrainFireBob]

Idea: If the ASM is less than -4, marines get their normal save (unmodified). Terminators get it against non -5.

 

Marines work best in the 3rd-7th dynamic. Everything else is better in 8th.

 

Heck, maybe it fixes Centurions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

Not if they have the keyword Fly... e.g., Talos and Shining Spears.

[Panzer]

 

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

Not if they have the keyword Fly... e.g., Talos and Shining Spears.

 

 

Even units with FLY can't do anything if they are LOCKED in melee due a failed LD test when trying to fall back. That's what we're talking about here, please stay focussed.

[Margulix]

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

[Panzer]

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

It would make them awesome durability-wise but it would be a pain to use in actual gameplay.

My 10 Vior'la Firewarrior with Fireblade support shoot at your Terminators who have a single Markerlight on them ... oh and I use the Vior'la Stratagem. That makes 60 shots, 35 hits, about 23 wounds. Time for you to roll 23 2d6 one by one. Meanwhile I go and make us some coffee so we don't fall asleep, okay? 

[Ishagu]

Yeah that only works in small scale skirmish.

[Xisor]

There could hypothetically be something to that, if you reworked it to basically be:

 

1+ on D6, but that they also ignore -1 modifiers, and if they remain on a 1+, it's an auto-success.

 

E.g. they're only vulnerable to -2AP weapons.

 

You could add drafter things too, like -1 damage for each 'hit', to a minimum of 1.

 

(Or switch it about, -1 damage, making them immune to Damage 1 weapons.)

 

----

 

Tl;dr - mechanically, you can approximate that level of durability, without making them utterly invulnerable or unkillable, and by being quick to implement.

 

And it could be a durability that could be distinct from Aggressors, Centurions and actual Dreadnoughts.

[Ishagu]

Here's the issue: How is any of that streamlining or making the rules easy?

 

Remember this is the edition of simple, quick rules. Survivability can be increased by altering stat-lines or making unit cheaper so you can take them in larger numbers.

 

I'm resigned to waiting for Chapter Approved. After we've seen what changes it makes we might either be happy or simply accept that a new codex is the only solution.

[Panzer]

Here's the issue: How is any of that streamlining or making the rules easy?

 

Remember this is the edition of simple, quick rules. Survivability can be increased by altering stat-lines or making unit cheaper so you can take them in larger numbers.

 

I'm resigned to waiting for Chapter Approved. After we've seen what changes it makes we might either be happy or simply accept that a new codex is the only solution.

 

It's the edition of simple, quick CORE rules. The unit specific rules can be as varied as imagineable. One part of "fixing Marines" includes to make them more interesting and less bland. You said so yourself. You can't make things less bland while also aim to streamline things.

[Ishagu]

It's also the edition of stratagems and this army has none of any worth. I think that's something that can be improved alongside substantial point reductions. Psychic powers too.

 

Also a unit only vulnerable to -2 AP weapons? That's terrible mechanics. It creates potential situations of no interaction, shades of the terrible abuses in 7th edition.

[Panzer]

Yeah I won't argue against that. ^^

[Xisor]

Yeah, as sfPanzer says, the rules on the table aren't simple. I think it's outright bad faith to insist that they are.

 

It'd be like claiming they've made bolt weapons easy and streamlined.

 

But it is simpler than the 2d6,so there's that.

 

Alternatives unclude:

- more wounds

- drastically improved toughness

- saves

- fancy special rules (such as strategems for alpha strikes, which are neither simpler nor easier than not adding new rules, but is also a key feature of 8th Edition, outside of the core rulebook itself).

 

That I could appreciate as a distinction.

 

Centurions: many more wounds (6/7).

 

Terminators: much higher toughness (e.g. Toughness 10, 2W).

[Panzer]

Terminators: much higher toughness (e.g. Toughness 10, 2W).

 

lol

 

Also I didn't say the rules on the table aren't simple. I still think 40k is a rather simple game. However the individual units, Stratagems and whatnot add a whole level of things one has to remember and make them potentially work in a more interesting way than just following the core rules.

[Volt]

One thing that would help is if power armor increased toughness. IE, Scouts are T4 as "naked" marines, marines are toughness 5, terminators and custodes units would be toughness 6, and this would cross over to sisters as well and bump them up to toughness 4.

[justicarius6]

It's not counter intuitive. The moral phase tests to see if your models run away.

 

If your models want to fall back from an assault in an orderly fashion and still be fighting ready they should pass a Ld check.

It also adds extra bite to all those CC units that add -1 LD modifiers too, Sang guard etc.

[Panzer]

 

It's not counter intuitive. The moral phase tests to see if your models run away.

 

If your models want to fall back from an assault in an orderly fashion and still be fighting ready they should pass a Ld check.

It also adds extra bite to all those CC units that add -1 LD modifiers too, Sang guard etc.

 

 

Yeah maybe Reiver would finally have a purpose then as well. ^^

[The Unseen]

Passing leadership to fall back from morale would be a solid way of buffing both melee AND the importance of the leadership stat overall, so it has a thumbs up from me. When something as janky as tri-locking a model into place is something that is basically REQUIRED to run a half-decent melee army, its pretty clear that phase just isn't pulling its weight. Either that, or bring Bolt Actions method of handling combat into it. Roll combat until you fail morale and die.

[Xisor]

A unified 'special orders' core like Battlefleet Gothic has would be nice.

 

Like, rolling some of the Guard orders (or their style) out to other armies in a general capacity would be neat. Hinge it on Ld and 'Command' units. (Would make sense for Tyranids Synapse too, just that instead of T3 goons in flak armour, their officers are howlingly big psychic monsters...

 

It would make a neat third axis to balance between Strategems, MSUs and Force Organisation/tabletop rules.

 

I know aura abilities currently do this sort of thing, and as I don't really play Guard, I might regret trying to advocate for that can of worms...

 

But it could be fun!

[The Unseen]

Nah, that'd be way to much to try and balance for GW. Instead, Guard's orders should've been rolled into stratagems, just like everyone else's special rules except them. Would give them something to spend their ridiculous amount of CP on. Like 1CP "FRSRF! Select an infantry unit within 6" of a unit with the "Officer" keyword, that unit may treat its lasguns as Rapid Fire 2 until the end of the phase. Just give them an exception that strats that used to be orders can be used more than once per turn.
Currently Guard is like, the only army, that gets to both have its cake (large number of CP's and moderately useful strats) and eat it too (easy to access, long ranged buffs on all their infantry for basically no cost).

[Dracos]

I’d like something that “fixes” Marines without the need for multiple rule adjustments

 

 

 

*They Shall Know No Fear = ReRoll failed armor saves*

 

Too much?

 

It’s a way to separate Astartes from Heretical and Custodes badassery. A tad OP probably for low AP attacks at the current point cost? On the other hand there is such a :cussload of shots and attacks these days it’d probably only shift them from low-mid to high-mid tier

[Marshal Arthur]

I really like the suggestion of a leadership test to fall back. As for durability any changes will also impact all chaos marine armies so we need to be careful. Armor refills sound great but will make certain deathguard units near impossible to kill. aside from durability I think a lot can be done.

 

Bump veterans up to hitting on 2s in their respective phase (vanguard and assault termies have a 2+ WS, stern guard and tactical termies have a 2+ BS) without increasing their cost.

 

Add a stratagem to deep strike within 9”, with only unit doing it we won’t be able to overwhelm an entire army but can at least threaten a key target.

 

Make Bolters more effective against horde (I don’t remember if I suggested this here or elsewhere but I think adding a rule to increase their AP against toughness 3 targets).

 

Give all vehicles power of the machine spirit. Marines need to be mobile and make every shot count, let the guard sit in a parking lot and trade shots, we maneuver.

 

Standardize the cost of weapons across armies. I understand a guardsman with a plasmagun is less accurate and durable that a marine with one but that effectiveness is reflected in the model price.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

 

 

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

Not if they have the keyword Fly... e.g., Talos and Shining Spears.

 

 

Even units with FLY can't do anything if they are LOCKED in melee due a failed LD test when trying to fall back. That's what we're talking about here, please stay focussed.

 

 

 

Again you missed the main point... if a unit with keyword Fly falls back they can still shoot with no penalty .

 

Comprehension is fundamental before you click the POST button.

[Panzer]

 

 

 

 

I’d like to see a unit has to take a Ld test to fallback and is wiped out if they fail with no strategems or special rules to circumvent it.

lol no that's too much. It's already punishing enough for a shooty unit to be locked in melee as is.

Not if they have the keyword Fly... e.g., Talos and Shining Spears.

 

 

Even units with FLY can't do anything if they are LOCKED in melee due a failed LD test when trying to fall back. That's what we're talking about here, please stay focussed.

 

 

 

Again you missed the main point... if a unit with keyword Fly falls back they can still shoot with no penalty .

 

Comprehension is fundamental before you click the POST button.

 

 

Why "again" and how did I miss the main point? We were talking about preventing to fall back via LD test. That would affect units with FLY the EXACT same way as any other unit. They would literally have no advantage there. I rather think you are the one missing the point here. So stones and glass houses.