"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[lythari]

I’d like something that “fixes” Marines without the need for multiple rule adjustments

 

 

 

*They Shall Know No Fear = ReRoll failed armor saves*

 

Too much?

 

It’s a way to separate Astartes from Heretical and Custodes badassery. A tad OP probably for low AP attacks at the current point cost? On the other hand there is such a :cussload of shots and attacks these days it’d probably only shift them from low-mid to high-mid tier

 

Reroll armour saves is too much.  That will make anything getting a 2+ save functionally invulnerable to AP0 as they'd get a 97.2% chance of a successful save.

 

[table]

 

Saving throw

 

Save % w/o reroll

 

Save % w reroll

 [td]2+[/td]

 [td]83.3[/td]

 [td]97.2[/td]

 [td]3+[/td]

 [td]66.7[/td]

 [td]88.9[/td]

 [td]4+[/td]

 [td]50[/td]

 [td]75[/td]

 [td]5+[/td]

 [td]33.3[/td]

 [td]55.5[/td]

 [td]6+[/td]

 [td]16.7[/td]

 [td]30.6[/td]

[/table]

 

EDIT: bah, can't get the table to work.

 

Save | Save chance | Save chance with reroll

2+ 83.3% 97.2%

3+ 66.7% 88.9%

4+ 50% 75%

5+ 33.3% 55.5%

6+ 16.7% 30.6%

 

My suggestion is to give all marines a 6+++.   Death guard would keep their 5+++, and Iron Hands get bumped up to 5+++.  Call it transhuman physiology to make it the 40K equivalent to the kill team rule.

 

I'm at work now so can't crunch more numbers, but assuming D1 weaponry that would give something with a 2+ save a 86% chance to save against the would, and something with a 3+ save would have a 70.3% chance to save against the wound.

[Kallas]

Reroll armour saves is too much.  That will make anything getting a 2+ save functionally invulnerable to AP0 as they'd get a 97.2% chance of a successful save.

Maybe too much for all Power Armour, but I'm not really sure that's the case. For Terminators, they should be wading through AP0 fire like it was nothing; for regular PA, rerollable 3+ is an 88% chance to save, which is great (for reference, that's only 3% better than a regular 2+ save), but again - Marines should be wading through low AP fire. Massive amounts of low AP shots will still bring them down, but Marines are what bigger guns (ie, Plasma, Heavy Bolters, etc) are for. Lasguns, and Boltguns for that matter, aren't designed to punch through heavy armour.

 

Considering the relative costs of Marines units, that kind of resilience to low AP weaponry would kind of justify that cost difference. They'd still be pretty vulnerable to high AP (-2 or more) weapons, and AP-1 would still hurt (4+ rerollable is a 75%, which is good but will go down fairly quickly still).

 

If it's just reroll 1s, eh. That'd make Terminators fine vs AP0, but they'd still be pants against the weapons (that are extremely common) that shred them normally. Plasma, for example, would still go through them like a hot knife through butter: rr1s5+ is a 38.5% chance to succeed; rrAll5+ is a 55% chance to succeed. If Terminators remain the same cost, a 55% chance to resist Plasma is pretty reasonable, considering that their damage output is generally pretty anaemic!

 

This is assuming rerolling Armour Saves (or, non-Invulnerable Saves), as rerollable Storm Shield 3++'s would get obnoxious pretty quickly. Reroll 1s on the Invulnerable wouldn't be too bad, but it'd make the TH/SS Assault Terminators pretty much the only decent Terminators, as they'd perform in a somewhat Distraction Carnifex-like way.

[Lemondish]

Every Adeptus unit, across all codexes, should get an extra wound.

 

Every codex.

 

Every faction.

 

Would probably make them more valuable than the massive amount of cheap wounds you can grab with guard. Nobody takes power armour for a reason.

[Captain Idaho]

I'd agree with that. And reroll saves. I'd be happy with either.

[Ishagu]

I'll take Primaris with 3 wounds.

 

But Custodes would need an extra one as well, across the board.

[lythari]

A big problem is that the Primaris stat line is what the standard marine should be.   I'd love for standard marines to be 2W 2A, and Primaris 3W.

 

Making marines more survivable is all well and good, but they need more offensive output and mobility as well.  Some ideas:

• Extra attacks as above
• Bolters get -1 AP on wound rolls of 6
• Ability to fire twice if stationary (rapid fire weapons only?  bolt weapons only?)
• Ability to treat bolters as assault weapons when advancing
• Reiver combat knives should be power weapons as per the Dark Imperium novel (Power Knives, -1/-2 AP?)

[Lemondish]

I'll take Primaris with 3 wounds.

 

But Custodes would need an extra one as well, across the board.

No but about it. They need it. So, do it. We might actually see Custodian Guard on the field. Twist the rule if needed for bikes, since they don't really need help. Or increase their points to compensate.

 

<p>

 

A big problem is that the Primaris stat line is what the standard marine should be. I'd love for standard marines to be 2W 2A, and Primaris 3W.

 

Making marines more survivable is all well and good, but they need more offensive output and mobility as well. Some ideas:

• Extra attacks as above
• Bolters get -1 AP on wound rolls of 6
• Ability to fire twice if stationary (rapid fire weapons only? bolt weapons only?)
• Ability to treat bolters as assault weapons when advancing
• Reiver combat knives should be power weapons as per the Dark Imperium novel (Power Knives, -1/-2 AP?)

I kept seeing suggestions of an Adeptus Astartes bolt gun rule to add an extra attack while at half range - like a built in cadre fireblade. I think that would work.

[Volt]

I'll take Primaris with 3 wounds.

 

But Custodes would need an extra one as well, across the board.

It's not like the Custodes couldn't use a wound or toughness buff. Individually they're a fantastic army and bike smash captains are terrifying on paper, but they end up just getitng swamped. Although even with increased toughness and wounds, I don't think custodes would cease getting tarpitted by chaff. 

[Margulix]

Also cheaper droppods (35 pts), with ability to deep strike on the first turn. Going back to 7ed rules with those i guess.

[CCE1981]

I'll take Primaris with 3 wounds.

 

But Custodes would need an extra one as well, across the board.

Why?  They have Toughness and Strength 5 plus 2+ armor, plus 4++ invulnerable.

[Captain Idaho]

Cheaper transports would help Marines a bunch. I know GW won't, but Rhinos need to go sub 50pts.

[Ishagu]

 

 

I'll take Primaris with 3 wounds.

 

But Custodes would need an extra one as well, across the board.

Why? They have Toughness and Strength 5 plus 2+ armor, plus 4++ invulnerable.

Custodes are supposed to be far, far stronger than Astartes.

[Kallas]

Cheaper transports would help Marines a bunch. I know GW won't, but Rhinos need to go sub 50pts.

I actually disagree on the Rhino front. Many transports (Chimeras, for example) do need to be cheaper, but Rhinos are ok for their cost. Maybe a small points drop, 10pts maybe, but they don't need a huge drop. And Razorbacks are, of course, good - mostly due to their firepower, but they are still good transports.

Custodes are supposed to be far, far stronger than Astartes.

And Marines are supposed to be far, far stronger than humans.

 

Both of those "far, far stronger"'s translate to a measly +1S. Custodes would still be much stronger (especially if you factor in their melee weapons, which are far superior to your standard Marines's sweet :cuss all). If we're talking lore-based, Marines should easily be more than double that of a Guardsman.

[Captain Idaho]

You're kidding? How is a Rhino worth 72pts? The unit inside is not game breaking regardless of which it is, so how is it worth so many points yet you think a Chimera needs a discount?

[Ishagu]

Rhino is probably worth 40 points, currently.

 

Drop Pod should be free, costing 1 CP

[autek mor]

considering the amount of shots a chimera can put out and it only costs a little more than a rhino, i would have to conclude that the rhino is very bad value. from the good old days of 35 pts to being free with gladius to what you have to pay now. 50 points for a rhino is a good compromise for something that does nothing but transport.

[Panzer]

The unit that can embark in a transport shouldn't dictate the cost of the transport itself. The transport is its own unit and GW could add a new unit or break a unit via Errata/CA that could embark in it and suddenly a Rhino you costed based on the units that can embark would be heavily undercosted.

Same goes for Drop Pods btw. Drop Pods would be fine at 10p-20p considering it basically adds Jump Packs to a unit without the benefits of FLY and increased movement speed (so actually more like Reiver Grav-chute tbf), adds Storm Bolter and itself is a big chunk of a medium durable vehicle that can sit on an objective or block paths just by being there.

[Panzer]

 something that does nothing but transport.

 

It can do more tho. It can block LoS, block paths, charge units to soak up overwatch or simply force a shooty unit to fall back so they can't shoot that turn, claim objectives due it's higher movement speed than the rest of your army aside from bikes and jump pack units which you might not want to send away from an active battle to sit on an objective.

Lots of ways to use a Rhino after it did its transportation duty.

[Lemondish]

 

 

Cheaper transports would help Marines a bunch. I know GW won't, but Rhinos need to go sub 50pts.

I actually disagree on the Rhino front. Many transports (Chimeras, for example) do need to be cheaper, but Rhinos are ok for their cost. Maybe a small points drop, 10pts maybe, but they don't need a huge drop. And Razorbacks are, of course, good - mostly due to their firepower, but they are still good transports.

Custodes are supposed to be far, far stronger than Astartes.

And Marines are supposed to be far, far stronger than humans.

 

Both of those "far, far stronger"'s translate to a measly +1S. Custodes would still be much stronger (especially if you factor in their melee weapons, which are far superior to your standard Marines's sweet :cuss all). If we're talking lore-based, Marines should easily be more than double that of a Guardsman.

Not to mention, Astartes are supposed to be superior in every way to normal humans, but a bunch of veteran jungle fighters from a death world are just as strong, just as accurate, and can be roused by pious chants into a more offensively effective melee combatant. Kind of makes it seem like marines are nothing but fancy armour. Sometimes it's clear that the rules exist to facilitate playing the game, not to facilitate telling an accurate in-universe story.

 

There's this common feeling that the unit stats ushered in by 8th edition data sheets perfectly and unequivocally represent the right spacing for the gaps at each level of the various "humans" - from guardsmen to Astartes to Custodes. The feeling is that this rigid hierarchy is both functionally necessary and unbreakable - it must be maintained at all levels, for any and all changes. A boost to the offensive or defensive stats of a space marine would always necessitate a corresponding boost to Custodes in order to maintain the gap. Just like how GW points things, some stats are overvalued here too.

 

I personally feel the gaps aren't perfect today and that a shift to stats on one unit would not always require a boost to others.

[autek mor]

 

 something that does nothing but transport.

 

It can do more tho. It can block LoS, block paths, charge units to soak up overwatch or simply force a shooty unit to fall back so they can't shoot that turn, claim objectives due it's higher movement speed than the rest of your army aside from bikes and jump pack units which you might not want to send away from an active battle to sit on an objective.

Lots of ways to use a Rhino after it did its transportation duty.

 

 

i am aware of those tactical uses but other transports for other armies also do the same but in some cases give you more weapon options and give you better value for your army so you can spend the much needed points elsewhere. considering that most loyalist marine chapters are not melee focused anyway and the ones that are in some cases are really not that good as they should be, marine players are not missing much by opting for the razorback to do the same roles and offer some fire support at the expense of transporting four less bodies. it represents more of a threat. not to the same level as a wave serpent but something for your opponent to think about at least as opposed to a speed bump carrying a storm bolter. with the current codex creep going on at the moment, rhinos become less likely to survive.

[Kallas]

You're kidding? How is a Rhino worth 72pts? The unit inside is not game breaking regardless of which it is, so how is it worth so many points yet you think a Chimera needs a discount?

Nope. If you want to read my battle reports, I have a thread in the Space Wolves forum.

 

Long and short of it, the Rhinos and Razorbacks protect the infantry and get them across the board. That's their job, and they do it and ancillary roles just fine.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Rhinos should be costed around 40 to 50 points. They are certainly not worth 70+ points now.

[autek mor]

 

You're kidding? How is a Rhino worth 72pts? The unit inside is not game breaking regardless of which it is, so how is it worth so many points yet you think a Chimera needs a discount?

Nope. If you want to read my battle reports, I have a thread in the Space Wolves forum.

 

Long and short of it, the Rhinos and Razorbacks protect the infantry and get them across the board. That's their job, and they do it and ancillary roles just fine.

 

 

which is a big problem with marines. there are several units that do a good job but are just overpriced for what they do. case in point, the fire raptor and stormraven.

[Kallas]

which is a big problem with marines. there are several units that do a good job but are just overpriced for what they do. case in point, the fire raptor and stormraven.

Well, I think that is more an issue with what the Rhino can transport, not with the Rhino itself.

[autek mor]

 

which is a big problem with marines. there are several units that do a good job but are just overpriced for what they do. case in point, the fire raptor and stormraven.

Well, I think that is more an issue with what the Rhino can transport, not with the Rhino itself.

 

 

lol that is true. 75 points for a transport with a stormbolter to deliver a lot of units that are not that great in assault or can simply be blown away by cultists, orks and guardians after they have embarked. may as well just slap a twin assault cannon on top and call it a day.