"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Panzer]

 

 

 something that does nothing but transport.

 

It can do more tho. It can block LoS, block paths, charge units to soak up overwatch or simply force a shooty unit to fall back so they can't shoot that turn, claim objectives due it's higher movement speed than the rest of your army aside from bikes and jump pack units which you might not want to send away from an active battle to sit on an objective.

Lots of ways to use a Rhino after it did its transportation duty.

 

 

i am aware of those tactical uses but other transports for other armies also do the same but in some cases give you more weapon options and give you better value for your army so you can spend the much needed points elsewhere. considering that most loyalist marine chapters are not melee focused anyway and the ones that are in some cases are really not that good as they should be, marine players are not missing much by opting for the razorback to do the same roles and offer some fire support at the expense of transporting four less bodies. it represents more of a threat. not to the same level as a wave serpent but something for your opponent to think about at least as opposed to a speed bump carrying a storm bolter. with the current codex creep going on at the moment, rhinos become less likely to survive.

 

 

Yeah I wasn't trying to say the Rhino is completely fine as is. I just wanted to object that it does nothing but transport. ;)

[Kallas]

lol that is true. 75 points for a transport with a stormbolter to deliver a lot of units that are not that great in assault or can simply be blown away by cultists, orks and guardians after they have embarked. may as well just slap a twin assault cannon on top and call it a day.

Yeah kinda. Like I said before, I've been having some really good success with my current list which is two Rhinos and two AssBacks. The Rhinos do their job well and 74pts is pretty reasonable considering the utility and defence that they provide to the list.

 

Razorbacks are obviously great, but they're a good chunk more expensive and don't transport as many dudes; in the role of transport, Rhinos are fine.

[Captain Idaho]

Astartes shotguns are +1 strength over ordinary shotguns... perhaps Astartes boltguns and pistols, since they're bigger, should be +1 strength over ordinary boltguns?

 

Spitballing now but I consider that a good fix. Not that we'd EVER see it happen.

[Panzer]

I like the suggestion of Bolters having better AP against T3 and worse tbh.

[Xisor]

I personally feel the gaps aren't perfect today and that a shift to stats on one unit would not always require a boost to others.

Could you expand on that, a bit?

 

I get what you mean about the gaps imperfect, but in which bits do you think the boosts could be done? (I don't dispute it, I just don't see where you'd be thinking.)

 

Like: Assault Marines get BS4+, S5, and two basic attacks? Or something different still?

 

----

 

I know I joked about Toughness 10 for terminators, but in light of the above "extreme" data-sheet modifications might do much better than any number of special rules/strategems.

 

E.g. Terminators could still be taken down by weight of small-arms fire (in contrast to the functional immunity Mont'au from 7th Ed that Ishagu was so afflicted by) but with an absurd elevation very few weapons would reliably *wound* them, even if it chips off or atomises big chunks of armour.

 

A sort of drastic exaggeration, but as we're not beholden to 1-10 values, Ld could go right up too. E.g. get rid of ASTKNF by giving Marines Ld 12. Simpler, and opens room for a re-Ld ability elsewhere.

 

(Spitballing to an extent, but it helps me actually think through these things.)

[Lemondish]

 

I personally feel the gaps aren't perfect today and that a shift to stats on one unit would not always require a boost to others.

Could you expand on that, a bit?

 

I get what you mean about the gaps imperfect, but in which bits do you think the boosts could be done? (I don't dispute it, I just don't see where you'd be thinking.)

 

Like: Assault Marines get BS4+, S5, and two basic attacks? Or something different still?

 

----

 

I know I joked about Toughness 10 for terminators, but in light of the above "extreme" data-sheet modifications might do much better than any number of special rules/strategems.

 

E.g. Terminators could still be taken down by weight of small-arms fire (in contrast to the functional immunity Mont'au from 7th Ed that Ishagu was so afflicted by) but with an absurd elevation very few weapons would reliably *wound* them, even if it chips off or atomises big chunks of armour.

 

A sort of drastic exaggeration, but as we're not beholden to 1-10 values, Ld could go right up too. E.g. get rid of ASTKNF by giving Marines Ld 12. Simpler, and opens room for a re-Ld ability elsewhere.

 

(Spitballing to an extent, but it helps me actually think through these things.)

 

 

I'm mostly saying that, from a general sense, Assault Marines going S5 and 2A doesn't tread on the toes of Primaris or Custodes (or Berzerkers, or Grey Hunters, or Crusade squads, etc.) and therefore should not necessitate an Intercessor or Custodian Guard boost to maintain the current gap between every stat and unit. Marines are underpowered compared to everybody, and I personally feel as if they should be brought up to their points cost, not have the cost brought down. I don't feel as if boosting standard and Primaris marines with stat increases should cascade across every tangentially related unit.  

 

But right now there's a super minor gap between Guardsmen and Marines. A bunch of veteran jungle duders carry the same str as marines, making the gap really only about one point of T and the armour save from power armour, alongside a slightly better standard weapon. Add in a priest and a colonel and they'll output more attacks in combat, too. 

 

Though I disagree and feel like special rules can and should be the solution here. They're easier to add to multiple units and don't fully require a straight codex update. Until GW finally embraces the digital future and provides data sheets via an app or website tool, we're sadly shackled mostly to paper.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

It's okay to leave Scouts at Strength 4, but Marines in power and Terminator armor should all receive +1 Strength, to account for the strength enhancements the armor is regularly described as having. Naturally, this means Centurions, Dreadnoughts, and Primarchs all need +1 Strength as well- that, or Games Workshop should order its writers to stop describing Space Marine armor as having strength enhancement capabilities, i.e., stop attributing abilities that aren't applicable in-game.

 

Space Marine players aren't the only ones disappointed at the differences between fluff (backstory) and crunch (in-game stats and special rules)- Necron players suffer this, as described here:

Gauss weapons are nothing special against vehicles. Neither are Scarabs.

 

<Snip.>

 

But that’s not the only instance where a unit doesn’t always do what the fluff says it does.

 

Another example is the Doom Scythe, which is described on page 59 as:

 

Doom Scythes are often deployed to sap the resolve of the enemy before the battle proper begins, for their presence induces an almost irrational terror in living creatures. The Doom Scythe’s primary propulsion system is a scaled up and augmented version of the dimensional repulsor drive employed on Tomb Blades. On those smaller craft, the whine of the drive is piercing and discomforting. On a Doom Scythe, the scale and amplitude of the sound is many hundreds of times greater; it resonates deep within the primitive core of living brains, playing havoc with memory, perception and sanity. Victims collapse into catatonia, slump into slack-jawed vacuity and suffer hallucinations…. Little wonder is it that entire armies of battle-tested veterans have been known to throw down their weapons and flee at a Doom Scythe’s onset, or else gouge out their own eyes in futile attempts to stem the images scratching at their senses.

Yeah, except that the actual army list write up for the Doom Scythe doesn’t have any rule like that. Not that I’m saying it should: I like them just the way they are. But if there aren’t going to be any rules that replicate the fearsome sonic assault of a dive-bombing Doom Scythe, why not remove that from the fluff?

The company needs better editors.

[Xisor]

The company needs better editors.

They are hiring, you know.

https://jobs.games-workshop.com/search-and-apply/technical-editor-warhammer-age-of-sigmar-nottingham-uk

[autek mor]

should every marine unit outside of characters drop in cost, i can build and use my dream spartan inspired army with multiple ten man vanguard squads with storm shields and power weapons. i still think vanguards would need an additional buff whether that be three attacks base or a special rule that buffs in melee that does not need a stratagem to work.

[Basteala]

Late reply regarding leadership,but honestly one thing that might make Marines ATSKNF more useful, and make leadership check Hordes more?

 

Roll two dice, and add your casualties to that. ATSKNF could operate like 'Ere We Go!, ,where you can reroll one or both dice.

[Panzer]

Doesn't really matter when many horde units have access to complete immunity. It would actually only risk losing Marines even faster.

[Lemondish]

Doesn't really matter when many horde units have access to complete immunity. It would actually only risk losing Marines even faster.

Exactly.

 

I feel ATSKNF does the job it's meant to.

 

Leadership not affecting hordes is a problem. Their immunity should be contingent on a once per game effect, so that it can be used to great effect at the right time, not so it makes them immune all the time.

[CCE1981]

With the Warhammer-Community website Chapter Approved pre-view I wouldn't be to surprised if any fixes to Space Marines will be lethargic at best.

[redmapa]

With the Warhammer-Community website Chapter Approved pre-view I wouldn't be to surprised if any fixes to Space Marines will be lethargic at best.

 

Yep, Im not expecting CA to fix anything substantial but at this point I will take anything. Even a single Stratagem that can boost my army's assault power will be something at least.

[Panzer]

With the Warhammer-Community website Chapter Approved pre-view I wouldn't be to surprised if any fixes to Space Marines will be lethargic at best.

 

I don't like repeating myself since I fear to sound like a negative nancy but we really shouldn't expect much more than points adjustments from the CA and considering it's the whole range that needs points adjustments I wouldn't expect GW to hit the spot right for most of them. The task to re-balance a whole Codex at once seems a bit too much for GW unfortunately.

 

Also additional Stratagems and such for everyone, but additional things don't fix existing things. They might be good and become an auto-include due that fact but it wouldn't be a proper fix. ^^

[Guest MistaGav]

I guess points adjustments are fine for now but the other concern is how far will they go in terms of points drops and what units/weapons will get looked at. Knowing our luck, the bad units will still remain just as expensive, the points drops will still not be enough and some stuff may even go up in points!

[Captain Idaho]

Chapter Approved seems to be focusing on Commander Farsight - the answer to a request no one asked for.

 

Okay maybe like 3 people banged that drum, but surely there is more money in Space Marines than those 3 Farsight players.

 

Of course if people keep lapping up overcoasted Primaris products GW will just assume everyone is happy with them.

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

[Ishagu]

Let's not write it off before it comes out

[Captain Idaho]

I believe that Chapter Approved will make Astartes more competitive, no question.

I seriously doubt it will make the army less boring. It's so utterly dull right now. The Ork rules and strats look so fun and varied. Multiple lists and tactics are possible.

Chapter Approved will need to:

1: Revamp All Chapter Tactics. Seriously improve them and make them impact vehicles.

2: Scrap most strategems completely and replace them with a new set that affect more units and in more dynamic ways.

3: Same with Psychic Powers

4: Point reduction across the board, every single unit. In some cases the points should be reduced to a fraction of their current cost.

Unless the above happen the Marine codex is still going to be boring trash with limited effective tactics.

I want to be able to teleport in Dreadnoughts and Guilliman and make 3D6" charges. If a bloody Gorkanaught can do it this shouldn't be a problem.

Well you aren't sounding like you're giving it much of a chance?

[Panzer]

It's Ishagu ... either he's super positive about everything Primaris or he's super negative about GWs ability to make Marines good. :P

[Ishagu]

I'm simply saying that we can't write off that CA will indeed have an impact on the balance.

 

I don't think that it will resolve the issue of Marines being the most boring. I'll certainly be happier if playing them isn't a handicap.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm only messing with you buddy. I know what you mean. We should give it a chance but let's not be too optimistic eh.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think the upcoming crusade has a better chance of fixing marines than chapter approved. I think CA is designed more to fix units and core rules than armies.

[Captain Idaho]

People who are complaining of rules bloat will lose their minds then.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

They should have already lol. I just think GW wants to have almost a subcription service where you have to buy a new book every now then. As long as they keep adjusting things more than they have in the past I'm fine with it. But I could see them releasing new stratagem packs with campaigns to address some armies issues.