"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Lemondish]

Chapter Approved seems to be focusing on Commander Farsight - the answer to a request no one asked for.

 

Okay maybe like 3 people banged that drum, but surely there is more money in Space Marines than those 3 Farsight players.

 

Of course if people keep lapping up overcoasted Primaris products GW will just assume everyone is happy with them.

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

Factually incorrect. The lack of Farsight's 8 was a massive letdown and missed opportunity for Tau players in the latest codex. The best part is that this likely costs nothing since it's not tied to a kit release.

 

It also adds a sweet new opportunity for future CA releases to include new data sheets for character models you can build out of existing kits. That's neat, because it's another avenue to getting units similar to the FW Lias Issodon - a great HQ choice that has never had a kit, but gives Raptors players their own special character.

[Kallas]

It also adds a sweet new opportunity for future CA releases to include new data sheets for character models you can build out of existing kits. That's neat, because it's another avenue to getting units similar to the FW Lias Issodon - a great HQ choice that has never had a kit, but gives Raptors players their own special character.

That's exactly how I'm looking at The Eight too: they evidently willing to release thematic datasheets for armies that don't necessarily have specific models, which means we could potentially see a lot of Astartes subfactions getting new things (Iron Hands characters, a new unit or two, relics, traits, stratagems, etc) in future CAs.

 

That is giving me a spark of excitement - if CA changes are actually good then this could be a promising book.

[Captain Idaho]

It would have cost nothing to fix Codex Space Marines and FAR FAR more people would have been happy about it than the token Tau Farsight fans.

[spessmarine]

Chapter Approved seems to be focusing on Commander Farsight - the answer to a request no one asked for.

 

Okay maybe like 3 people banged that drum, but surely there is more money in Space Marines than those 3 Farsight players.

 

Of course if people keep lapping up overcoasted Primaris products GW will just assume everyone is happy with them.

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

FSE is probably the most well-known and actually cared about Tau subfaction. They've had rules recently too.

So I don't see anything wrong with fixing that oversight.

[Captain Idaho]

***edited because I don't want the conversation any more***

[Medjugorje]

should every marine unit outside of characters drop in cost, i can build and use my dream spartan inspired army with multiple ten man vanguard squads with storm shields and power weapons. i still think vanguards would need an additional buff whether that be three attacks base or a special rule that buffs in melee that does not need a stratagem to work.

 

vanguards are not that expensive... their problem is that the equipment is far too expensive for a 1W T4 model.

Weapons and equipment normally should have different costs for each unit.

 

A power weapon for example makes a Captain far more better in comparison without the weapon. And for model that cost more then 60 points there is no difference to pay 4 points more. Look into a Crusadersquad - one normal guy can be equipped with a power sword too, but 13 to 17 point increase is very huge if you compare his output with a chainsword crusader.

[Medjugorje]

Rhino is probably worth 40 points, currently.

 

Drop Pod should be free, costing 1 CP

 

Rhino still good units and 72 points are not that expensive. the real problem is inside the rhino...

 

 

each marine should get a point reduce to 12 points and a rhino point reduction about 5-10 points would be very good.

[Medjugorje]

I think the upcoming crusade has a better chance of fixing marines than chapter approved. I think CA is designed more to fix units and core rules than armies.

 

If you fix units - maybe you have to fix a lot of them in codex space marines. So it will be a armie wide fix ;)

[Medjugorje]

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

I think that is a great idea. Its not that huge improvement like it sounds. But it would make them a little bit stronger especially against hard weapons because so they can use their inv. save which is fully senseless now.

Stormshields and Catapractii should made better then. And the relic for a 2+ armor must be forbitten if the wearer has the TERMINATOR keyword.

 

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

It would make them awesome durability-wise but it would be a pain to use in actual gameplay.

My 10 Vior'la Firewarrior with Fireblade support shoot at your Terminators who have a single Markerlight on them ... oh and I use the Vior'la Stratagem. That makes 60 shots, 35 hits, about 23 wounds. Time for you to roll 23 2d6 one by one. Meanwhile I go and make us some coffee so we don't fall asleep, okay? 

 

its not that complicated. Throw 23 wounds and then re-roll all failed throws.

Yeah that only works in small scale skirmish.

 

why... rerolls for shots fired or attacks in melee are handled in the same way.

[Panzer]

 

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

I think that is a great idea. Its not that huge improvement like it sounds. But it would make them a little bit stronger especially against hard weapons because so they can use their inv. save which is fully senseless now.

Stormshields and Catapractii should made better then. And the relic for a 2+ armor must be forbitten if the wearer has the TERMINATOR keyword.

 

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

It would make them awesome durability-wise but it would be a pain to use in actual gameplay.

My 10 Vior'la Firewarrior with Fireblade support shoot at your Terminators who have a single Markerlight on them ... oh and I use the Vior'la Stratagem. That makes 60 shots, 35 hits, about 23 wounds. Time for you to roll 23 2d6 one by one. Meanwhile I go and make us some coffee so we don't fall asleep, okay? 

 

its not that complicated. Throw 23 wounds and then re-roll all failed throws.

Yeah that only works in small scale skirmish.

 

why... rerolls for shots fired or attacks in melee are handled in the same way.

 

 

Because you have pairs of dice that belong together.

Example: The unit gets wounded 6 times so you have to make 6 saves. If you roll 6 2d6 at once and roll two 1s you won't be able to determine whether the 1s belong to the same pair (aka only one failed save) or whether the 1s belong to two different pair and you also won't be able to determine whether the other dice for those pairs was low or not (aka potentially two failed saves).

Unless you have a ton of differently coloured dice sets at hand so you can actually roll pairs there is literally no way to fast roll a 2d6 save.

 

It's btw the same for units with supercharging Plasma that has more than one shot. Plasma Inceptors supercharging their Plasma and roll a few 1s ... do the 1s belong to the Plasma from one model so only one model would die or do the 1s belong to different models so more than one would die? Impossible to tell if you roll them all at once without preparing sets of differently looking dice.

Luckily with Plasma we have the control over how many dice we're going to roll so we won't get into situations like with the Terminators when a unit with a riddiculous amount of shots aims to take them down.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

I think that is a great idea. Its not that huge improvement like it sounds. But it would make them a little bit stronger especially against hard weapons because so they can use their inv. save which is fully senseless now.

Stormshields and Catapractii should made better then. And the relic for a 2+ armor must be forbitten if the wearer has the TERMINATOR keyword.

 

Actually for termies they should use the Shadow war rules of sv.

 

They had 3+ save but on the 2d6.

 

This can make them very survivable like movie termies.

 

It would make them awesome durability-wise but it would be a pain to use in actual gameplay.

My 10 Vior'la Firewarrior with Fireblade support shoot at your Terminators who have a single Markerlight on them ... oh and I use the Vior'la Stratagem. That makes 60 shots, 35 hits, about 23 wounds. Time for you to roll 23 2d6 one by one. Meanwhile I go and make us some coffee so we don't fall asleep, okay? 

 

its not that complicated. Throw 23 wounds and then re-roll all failed throws.

Yeah that only works in small scale skirmish.

 

why... rerolls for shots fired or attacks in melee are handled in the same way.

 

 

Because you have pairs of dice that belong together.

Example: The unit gets wounded 6 times so you have to make 6 saves. If you roll 6 2d6 at once and roll two 1s you won't be able to determine whether the 1s belong to the same pair (aka only one failed save) or whether the 1s belong to two different pair and you also won't be able to determine whether the other dice for those pairs was low or not (aka potentially two failed saves).

Unless you have a ton of differently coloured dice sets at hand so you can actually roll pairs there is literally no way to fast roll a 2d6 save.

 

It's btw the same for units with supercharging Plasma that has more than one shot. Plasma Inceptors supercharging their Plasma and roll a few 1s ... do the 1s belong to the Plasma from one model so only one model would die or do the 1s belong to different models so more than one would die? Impossible to tell if you roll them all at once without preparing sets of differently looking dice.

Luckily with Plasma we have the control over how many dice we're going to roll so we won't get into situations like with the Terminators when a unit with a riddiculous amount of shots aims to take them down.

 

why.... you can just roll ALL dice and then reroll all failed. It doesnt matter if there is a failed save if your throw another 3+...  fast dice throwing is possilbe in this case. Throwing 2 dice or reroll a failed throw makes no difference.

 

if you overcharge its important because two fails kill just one guy.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Medj, how are you not getting this? If you roll 23 saves, on 46 D6, and roll say four 1s and four 2s, !the rest all three and above so passed), how do you know, without coloured dice, who died? Or didn't? Is each 1 paired with a 2, so all live? Or are the 1s both from two pairs, so two die? Just re-rolling those dice wouldn't be fair on your opponent because your odds of passing are so good.

[Captain Idaho]

People are talking about Terminators saving on on a 2D6 rather than a reroll.

 

And overcharged plasma MUST be rolled separately to distinguish who rolled the ones that kills them. If a model rolls 2 ones he will die. If you roll them all at once then you couldn't tell whether a single model rolled 2 ones or separate models rolled a one each.

[Lemondish]

Terminators saving on a 2D6 would make them more resilient than tanks.

 

They just need either an extra wound or a reduction in damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1. With the latter, they'll still wither to masses of attrition fire at the same rate as today, but would require twice as much firepower from marine killing weapons to drop them. The former does the same against high AP, but makes them even more survivable against low AP.

 

None of this weird 1+ save, or 2D6 save, or rerolling failed saves. Their resilience is boosted without touching the save.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Terminators saving on a 2D6 would make them more resilient than tanks.

 

They just need either an extra wound or a reduction in damage taken by 1 to a minimum of 1. With the latter, they'll still wither to masses of attrition fire at the same rate as today, but would require twice as much firepower from marine killing weapons to drop them. The former does the same against high AP, but makes them even more survivable against low AP.

 

None of this weird 1+ save, or 2D6 save, or rerolling failed saves. Their resilience is boosted without touching the save.

Well said- we should minimize the Special Rules so the game is easy to play, if difficult to master. How about having Terminator armor giving the wearer +1 Toughness, i.e., a Space Marine that is T4 in power armor, becomes T5?

[Medjugorje]

People are talking about Terminators saving on on a 2D6 rather than a reroll.

 

And overcharged plasma MUST be rolled separately to distinguish who rolled the ones that kills them. If a model rolls 2 ones he will die. If you roll them all at once then you couldn't tell whether a single model rolled 2 ones or separate models rolled a one each.

because it doesnt matter.. normally you can throw each one extra. But ruleswise it makes not that difference.... maybe GW should change the save per model into save per woundpool.

[Tamiel]

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

My sentiments exactly. Primaris are bad for the game (both from lore and gameplay perspectives) yet people keep buying them, giving GW the thumbs up to keep doing what they're doing. Marines don't feel like Marines in 8th, and now with chapter approved supposedly focusing on some Tau Farsight change over the other problems... if that's true, I'm starting to get a little annoyed with GW.

 

What the hell went and happened to this army? Which eldritch god did we piss off for power armour units to be so overcosted? For bolters to have no AP?

 

What a goddamn mess.

[Lemondish]

 

 

People are talking about Terminators saving on on a 2D6 rather than a reroll.

 

And overcharged plasma MUST be rolled separately to distinguish who rolled the ones that kills them. If a model rolls 2 ones he will die. If you roll them all at once then you couldn't tell whether a single model rolled 2 ones or separate models rolled a one each.

because it doesnt matter.. normally you can throw each one extra. But ruleswise it makes not that difference.... maybe GW should change the save per model into save per woundpool.

My question is why even go with 2D6 when you're really just rerolling fails?

 

 

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

My sentiments exactly. Primaris are bad for the game (both from lore and gameplay perspectives) yet people keep buying them, giving GW the thumbs up to keep doing what they're doing. Marines don't feel like Marines in 8th, and now with chapter approved supposedly focusing on some Tau Farsight change over the other problems... if that's true, I'm starting to get a little annoyed with GW.

 

What the hell went and happened to this army? Which eldritch god did we piss off for power armour units to be so overcosted? For bolters to have no AP?

 

What a goddamn mess.

I think this level of passion can quickly appear as hyperbole if repeated enough. I'm not inclined to agree with an unsupported argument that Primaris are bad for the game, though I'm interested to hear why you feel this way.

 

Furthermore, if Primaris were to be spun off to a separate faction with a separate codex, would your concerns be soothed? Is that how you'd fix the codex?

[Ishagu]

 

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

My sentiments exactly. Primaris are bad for the game (both from lore and gameplay perspectives) yet people keep buying them, giving GW the thumbs up to keep doing what they're doing. Marines don't feel like Marines in 8th, and now with chapter approved supposedly focusing on some Tau Farsight change over the other problems... if that's true, I'm starting to get a little annoyed with GW.

 

What the hell went and happened to this army? Which eldritch god did we piss off for power armour units to be so overcosted? For bolters to have no AP?

 

What a goddamn mess.

Guys, it's been a while since Primaris were introduced now and the lore has evolved with some pretty great novels.

Why refuse to accept them? Your armies aren't going anywhere, they will be supported with rules for a long, long time if not indefinitely.

 

I collected my Primaris in a pretty casual capacity and have amassed a large army which really didn't cost me all that much. Painting and collecting them has been an absolute joy, similar to what I felt when I first started Astartes.

 

You can't deny they look good!

[Lemondish]

 

 

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

My sentiments exactly. Primaris are bad for the game (both from lore and gameplay perspectives) yet people keep buying them, giving GW the thumbs up to keep doing what they're doing. Marines don't feel like Marines in 8th, and now with chapter approved supposedly focusing on some Tau Farsight change over the other problems... if that's true, I'm starting to get a little annoyed with GW.

 

What the hell went and happened to this army? Which eldritch god did we piss off for power armour units to be so overcosted? For bolters to have no AP?

 

What a goddamn mess.

Guys, it's been a while since Primaris were introduced now and the lore has evolved with some pretty great novels.

Why refuse to accept them? Your armies aren't going anywhere, they will be supported with rules for a long, long time if not indefinitely.

 

I collected my Primaris in a pretty casual capacity and have amassed a large army which really didn't cost me all that much. Painting and collecting them has been an absolute joy, similar to what I felt when I first started Astartes.

 

You can't deny they look good!

My only regret in life is that I can't like this post twice.

[Tamiel]

Some people will never like Primaris marines, and some people will never see the fault in them.

No point in discussing it any more. We're so far past the point of trying to show each other what their faults are that everyone has already dug their trenches and settled in on their positions.

[Ishagu]

I see all the faults as plain as day. I just think the positives outweigh them.

[Panzer]

 

People are talking about Terminators saving on on a 2D6 rather than a reroll.

 

And overcharged plasma MUST be rolled separately to distinguish who rolled the ones that kills them. If a model rolls 2 ones he will die. If you roll them all at once then you couldn't tell whether a single model rolled 2 ones or separate models rolled a one each.

because it doesnt matter.. normally you can throw each one extra. But ruleswise it makes not that difference.... maybe GW should change the save per model into save per woundpool.

 

 

Going with the example of a 2d6 save on a Sv3+ model it would matter for any wound caused by an attack with at least AP-1. So most of the time you wouldn't get around rolling them separately. If it's only AP0, then yeah you're right. Only rolling a second 1 would bring it under 3 and thus make you fail the save. That's indeed like a re-roll for a 2+ save. However things change immediately as soon as some AP is involved.

[Panzer]

 

(Yes I'm negative. I'm disenfranchised pretty heavily and close to my hobby break point)

My sentiments exactly. Primaris are bad for the game (both from lore and gameplay perspectives) yet people keep buying them, giving GW the thumbs up to keep doing what they're doing. Marines don't feel like Marines in 8th, and now with chapter approved supposedly focusing on some Tau Farsight change over the other problems... if that's true, I'm starting to get a little annoyed with GW.

 

What the hell went and happened to this army? Which eldritch god did we piss off for power armour units to be so overcosted? For bolters to have no AP?

 

What a goddamn mess.

 

 

CA isn't "focussing" on some T'au Farsight change 

It's just some fanservice that will take only like 4 pages or something and will probably be low efford as so often with GW. That's like saying the CA 2017 was focussing on the custom Landraider rules for Open play. Farsights The Eight won't take anything away from Marines or any other army and especially not from any balancing attempts.

 

No wonder you're so annoyed if you think that's how things are going to be.

[Captain Idaho]

Guys, it's been a while since Primaris were introduced now and the lore has evolved with some pretty great novels.

Why refuse to accept them? Your armies aren't going anywhere, they will be supported with rules for a long, long time if not indefinitely.

I collected my Primaris in a pretty casual capacity and have amassed a large army which really didn't cost me all that much. Painting and collecting them has been an absolute joy, similar to what I felt when I first started Astartes.

You can't deny they look good!

To address your points in reverse order:

 

1) I can deny they look good. They're too large and overly sci-fi clean (like Tau) when the chief human aesthetic is supposed to be gothic insanity.

 

2) Our armies aren't going anywhere? You yourself have said they are the future. It's obvious to everyone which way GW is going and frankly everyone who paid money for their armies has a right to complain that they are being phased out.

 

3) Why refuse to accept them? So as a consumer I should buy what is presented without choice?

 

4) I've only read a single novel with Primaris and the only good bits were the bits they weren't in! The action in Dark Imperium was hopeless bolter porn where a few Intercessors shot down Blight Drones with Bolters and an Inceptor solo killed dozens of Iron Warriors with his super guns.

 

Good bits were the politics bits mind. And Guilliman.