"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Ishagu]

But will you always feel this way? How about 2 years from now? 5 years?

 

I felt exactly the same when I learned about Primaris. I had spent a huge amount of money, effort and time rebuilding my Marines with newer kits and Heresy era armour as I loved how they looked. Literally when my final unit was painted the Primaris were unveiled lol. (I remember posting pics of my models just as the Primaris teasers were starting)

 

I decided that the opportunity for new, unrestrained model designs and the progression of the lore were ultimately of more benefit to me as a collector, player and hobbyist than the negatives.

[autek mor]

i can't be mad at primaris as i think some of the the writing as of late has sucked in general. some of these events in the most grimdark of times remind of arcs i have read in shonen manga. i can tolerate the bad fluff to a certain degree in exchange for good models to collect and some decent rules. while some of the primaris models have been good, they still need better rules or must be cheaper. one common issue all marine units seem to face is that they are screwed if they whiff their shooting or assaults. the high cost of units really cripples the army when the dice rolls don't go your way and that just isn't fun considering marines are supposed to be a entry army into the game for many players. a new player who likes marines would be better off with deathguard or the chaos book if they don't mind being traitors.

[Captain Idaho]

But will you always feel this way? How about 2 years from now? 5 years?

I felt exactly the same when I learned about Primaris. I had spent a huge amount of money, effort and time rebuilding my Marines with newer kits and Heresy era armour as I loved how they looked. Literally when my final unit was painted the Primaris were unveiled lol. (I remember posting pics of my models just as the Primaris teasers were starting)

I decided that the opportunity for new, unrestrained model designs and the progression of the lore were ultimately of more benefit to me as a collector, player and hobbyist than the negatives.

You're pushing the interpretation if you think the new Primaris line is pushing the design of Space Marines. Taller Marines with Bolters is hardly ground breaking.

 

Progression of the lore? Explain why with Guilliman returning the classic line of Marines couldn't do so?

 

And yes; if I have to sell my army I will always be burnt by it and feel the same.

 

What you don't seem to get that we feel rotten about is there is a massive difference between an older line of models evolving over time and a sudden change that makes existing models obsolete.

 

The latter is cynical and deliberate and as a consumer I find it unacceptable.

 

And I hate the size of the bloody things.

[Panzer]

Can't we just agree that we like different things? I for example like some of the things Captain Idaho finds unnaceptable and hates. I won't be able to change his opinion and I don't see why I should. That's life. Different people different opinions. ^^

[Captain Idaho]

Exactly.

 

But that's what is so upsetting about it. If Primaris were supported ALONGSIDE classic Marines then all would be gravy. The fact it's not essentially means it's "like Primaris or go home".

[Robbienw]

But will you always feel this way? How about 2 years from now? 5 years?

 

 

Yes.

 

We have had plenty of time to get used to them, plenty of time for any ‘didn’t like them in pictures, saw them in person and loved them’ effect to take place.

 

They haven’t been out for 2 months, they are not a new thing now, we first saw the models over a year and a half ago. The time to get used to stuff and change initial thoughts is over and done.

[Captain Idaho]

We'll better drop it now eh guys. After all this is about fixing Marines.

[9x19 Parabellum]

Ok, so without fanboi-ing, being unrealistic, or otherwise hanging on with fool's hope, what do we ACTUALLY think Chapter Approved is going to do?

 

Decrease costs, here's my predictions.

Basic SM chassis for all books drops by 2 points. (13 to 11, or 16 to 14 for veterans)

Scouts drop from 11 to 10.

Primaris drops from 18 to 16

Terminators drop from 26 to 21.

Predator chassis drops to 75 pts. (equal to razorback, trading 6 transport for +1 wound)

Land Raiders to 200-210

Centurions down to 55

Land Speeders down to 40

Dreadnoughts down 10-20 pts, depending on specific type and chassis.

[Panzer]

Sounds about right. At least for the infantry. I didn't bother thinking too much about vehicles. Tho I still think Scouts are worth more points than Tacticals due the infiltrate ability but GW apparently thinks otherwise. :P

[Captain Idaho]

When you look at how powerful many of the other Codex books weapons were in index then final Codex you can see there's a massive disparity in power. Be nice to have a bit of that spread fairly to us.

 

Vindicator Demolisher Cannons, Whirlwinds, Stalkers and Hunters all have weapons I'd like to see pumped up.

[autek mor]

Ok, so without fanboi-ing, being unrealistic, or otherwise hanging on with fool's hope, what do we ACTUALLY think Chapter Approved is going to do?

 

Decrease costs, here's my predictions.

Basic SM chassis for all books drops by 2 points. (13 to 11, or 16 to 14 for veterans)

Scouts drop from 11 to 10.

Primaris drops from 18 to 16

Terminators drop from 26 to 21.

Predator chassis drops to 75 pts. (equal to razorback, trading 6 transport for +1 wound)

Land Raiders to 200-210

Centurions down to 55

Land Speeders down to 40

Dreadnoughts down 10-20 pts, depending on specific type and chassis.

 

i'm hoping they drop points even further than that if they don't get better rules to go with it. still too expensive for what they do. landspeeders at 40 points might get some play though. landraiders at 200?........not sure about that after added weapons on the old lascannon variant you are still going over 300 points, better off with the stormraven or repulsor once you go into the 300 or more mark.

[Ishagu]

I want Primaris at 13, regular Astartes at 9, Terminators at 16.

[Captain Idaho]

Corr that would be a dream come true.

[Ishagu]

Yeah it would be spicy!

[Kallas]

I want Primaris at 13, regular Astartes at 9, Terminators at 16.

And Assault Marines at 7 

[9x19 Parabellum]

I want Primaris at 13, regular Astartes at 9, Terminators at 16.

 

This is just not going to happen. If the stars align, you might get astartes at 10.  Terminators would be good at 21 IF the corresponding weapons were also taken down in price, but you aren't going to get 16 pt. Terminators.   Primaris at 13 is too cheap in my opinion, but that's another area where the problems are not only in the costs of the base model itself but also the weapons.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I like 2d6 for terminator armor saves since this is how it worked back when the game used AP to reduce armor saves. Let's face it the developers seem to not want SM to be really competitive any more.

[9x19 Parabellum]

 

Ok, so without fanboi-ing, being unrealistic, or otherwise hanging on with fool's hope, what do we ACTUALLY think Chapter Approved is going to do?

 

Decrease costs, here's my predictions.

Basic SM chassis for all books drops by 2 points. (13 to 11, or 16 to 14 for veterans)

Scouts drop from 11 to 10.

Primaris drops from 18 to 16

Terminators drop from 26 to 21.

Predator chassis drops to 75 pts. (equal to razorback, trading 6 transport for +1 wound)

Land Raiders to 200-210

Centurions down to 55

Land Speeders down to 40

Dreadnoughts down 10-20 pts, depending on specific type and chassis.

 

i'm hoping they drop points even further than that if they don't get better rules to go with it. still too expensive for what they do. landspeeders at 40 points might get some play though. landraiders at 200?........not sure about that after added weapons on the old lascannon variant you are still going over 300 points, better off with the stormraven or repulsor once you go into the 300 or more mark.

 

A 200 pt Land Raider (any chassis) would be a 40 pt. drop.  That's 20% cost reduction.  Is that enough? I have no idea, but I can tell you with almost Newtonian certainty that GW will never allow a Land Raider to see play less than 200 pts. I just don't think they can open up their mind to the limitations of a Land Raider to allow them to see it as worth less than 200 pts. "Toughness 8 and 2+ armor save! No way that is worth anything less than 200 pts!"  Doesn't matter that the 300 pt Redeemer is rendered useless if a 4 pt. model can manage to roll an 8 or more on 2d6 charge.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

The reductions must be enough overall to be truly significant .

[UnkyHamHam]

I know it's pointless (pun intended) to say this, but I COMPLETELY disagree with aggregiously dropping marines by so many points. I say that with the caveat, that yes there are definitely some point drops needed. Like Centurions.

 

I know it's a long shot, but I foolishly hold out hope that GW would rather strengthen the identity and allure of Astartes, and thus their IP and brand. Rather than just cut point costs across the board to sell more models and make marine players shut up.

 

Marines need a serious look, and possibly a new codex. CA point costs are a bandaid. The one thing I completely agree with Ishagu on, is that marines are bland and boring.

 

What ultimately I'd like to see is an Angels of Death supplement to do some major reworking to marine's rules, strats, and inner workings. Most people will argue just make them a new codex. I say either way we have to buy a new book. At least with a supplement, it will be cheaper.

 

I know there are extreme challenges ahead of GW for "fixing" and balancing marines. Things like keeping them simple enough to invite new players, but competitive enough to reward the dedicated tournament players, while also deep and flavored enough to keep the hobbyists coming back to make multiple marine armies.

 

I and many others have made many excellent suggestions in these threads, and at least helped get the ball rolling. But it will completely kill my hobby drive if all they do is drop points.

 

I'm in a similar place to Idaho. A combo of poor writing from GW since Gathering Storm, 8th rules sterilizing our codex of flavor, and half baked Primaris taking precedent are really killing me as a marine player first and foremost. Being relegated to a bland PA hoard will be the nail in the coffin for me. I won't even migrate to 30k like others due to FW's shady price gouging. So I have thousands of dollars and thousands of hours worth of horse in this race. I'd really like GW to take marines serious past the CA point bandaid.

 

*gets off soapbox.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

SM were hot out the gate. CSM are actually in a similar place now as well. I will gladly take some serious points reduction with CA right around the corner. If you truly desire a new codex you might me in for a long wait or major disappointment. At least the wishlisting is not as rampant here now.

[Kallas]

Marines need a serious look, and possibly a new codex. CA point costs are a bandaid.

I absolutely agree that that is the needed change; I do not believe that GW will consider this approach any time soon - maybe next year we'll see a Primaris Codex, but I really doubt we'll see them actually put in the effort to pull up the struggling factions by the required amount. Points changes are far easier for them, even if it doesn't help with the more complex issue (eg, Space Marine Stratagems being boring as :cuss and often just worse versions of many others' Stratagems).

[Lemondish]

I know it won't happen, but my personal preference is to buff stats so they're worth their price rather than dropping the price so they're worth their current stats. Don't think that can easily happen in CA though :(

[autek mor]

 

 

Ok, so without fanboi-ing, being unrealistic, or otherwise hanging on with fool's hope, what do we ACTUALLY think Chapter Approved is going to do?

 

Decrease costs, here's my predictions.

Basic SM chassis for all books drops by 2 points. (13 to 11, or 16 to 14 for veterans)

Scouts drop from 11 to 10.

Primaris drops from 18 to 16

Terminators drop from 26 to 21.

Predator chassis drops to 75 pts. (equal to razorback, trading 6 transport for +1 wound)

Land Raiders to 200-210

Centurions down to 55

Land Speeders down to 40

Dreadnoughts down 10-20 pts, depending on specific type and chassis.

 

i'm hoping they drop points even further than that if they don't get better rules to go with it. still too expensive for what they do. landspeeders at 40 points might get some play though. landraiders at 200?........not sure about that after added weapons on the old lascannon variant you are still going over 300 points, better off with the stormraven or repulsor once you go into the 300 or more mark.

 

A 200 pt Land Raider (any chassis) would be a 40 pt. drop.  That's 20% cost reduction.  Is that enough? I have no idea, but I can tell you with almost Newtonian certainty that GW will never allow a Land Raider to see play less than 200 pts. I just don't think they can open up their mind to the limitations of a Land Raider to allow them to see it as worth less than 200 pts. "Toughness 8 and 2+ armor save! No way that is worth anything less than 200 pts!"  Doesn't matter that the 300 pt Redeemer is rendered useless if a 4 pt. model can manage to roll an 8 or more on 2d6 charge.

 

 

i see what you mean. this is the problem with the separating the cost of the unit and weapons. if you reduce the weapons then every unit that can field the same weapon is due a reduction so what exactly do you reduce in this case? that sweet 2+ save and T8 toughness doesn't mean anything with how more armies are getting more killy through stratagems, rules and upgrades. even if the lascannon variant was around 275 points full stocked, players may still be hesitant to use it because it does not make the unit any more stronger or tougher. if they really want to keep it around the 300 point mark then give it a 4-5+ invul save otherwise players who are more inclined to want to win games will opt for vehicles that pack more guns or are harder to kill even if they cost more than a landraider.

[Lemondish]

i see what you mean. this is the problem with the separating the cost of the unit and weapons. if you reduce the weapons then every unit that can field the same weapon is due a reduction so what exactly do you reduce in this case? that sweet 2+ save and T8 toughness doesn't mean anything with how more armies are getting more killy through stratagems, rules and upgrades. even if the lascannon variant was around 275 points full stocked, players may still be hesitant to use it because it does not make the unit any more stronger or tougher. if they really want to keep it around the 300 point mark then give it a 4-5+ invul save otherwise players who are more inclined to want to win games will opt for vehicles that pack more guns or are harder to kill even if they cost more than a landraider.

Exactly. They also can't rely on the rule of three to reign in spam for things like this, because if they make it amazingly cheap, you can bet people will bring 9 from a bunch of different books in one force.

 

A 4+ or 5+ invuln would make it work well as a pretty survivable tank, but it's supposed to be an assault transport. It needs the ability to shoot even if within 1" of an enemy. Essentially, it needs to trade PotMS for Steel Behemoth.

 

Then it would be worth its current price.