"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Panzer]

 

Regarding Terminators - there has to be a cleaner way to increase their durability than this +1 save nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? 1+ save seems pretty clean to me. The precedent for the mechanic is set by 7+ saves anyway.

 

 

Yeah I don't understand why some people have a hard time wrapping their head around it either.

[CCE1981]

 

 

 

Regarding Terminators - there has to be a cleaner way to increase their durability than this +1 save nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? 1+ save seems pretty clean to me. The precedent for the mechanic is set by 7+ saves anyway.

Yeah I don't understand why some people have a hard time wrapping their head around it either.

The easy thing is to give terminators a 1+ save. I think a better thing is to make the invulnerable save worth more. I would make invulnerable saves counter AP rather than be a save. Right now a 5++ does very little when a model has a 2+ save. The only time you get to ise it is getting hit by melta, or anti-titan weapons.

[Panzer]

I would just get rid of the invul on high armour save models completely. That should also serve making Terminators a little bit cheaper again since Invuls usually don't come for free.

[CCE1981]

I would just get rid of the invul on high armour save models completely. That should also serve making Terminators a little bit cheaper again since Invuls usually don't come for free.

So how would you handle Stormsheilds? Thunder and Stormsheild termies would be hit pretty hard.

[Panzer]

 

I would just get rid of the invul on high armour save models completely. That should also serve making Terminators a little bit cheaper again since Invuls usually don't come for free.

So how would you handle Stormsheilds? Thunder and Stormsheild termies would be hit pretty hard.

 

 

Of course I meant only the 5++ one for Terminators. The Stormshields are perfectly fine even if they'd get a 1+ armour.

[Lemondish]

 

Regarding Terminators - there has to be a cleaner way to increase their durability than this +1 save nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? 1+ save seems pretty clean to me. The precedent for the mechanic is set by 7+ saves anyway.

 

 

I think it looks messy (for the record, I think the same about 7+ saves too). Probably irrelevant, though. The real question is if it goes far enough. That's about a 25% durability increase. Will still die to weight of fire as usual, but would survive a bit longer against the things that kill them so well today. Is that enough to break them out of the slump and be worth their points? Or does it still result in them still dying too fast to cheap anti-TEQ firepower. 

 

 

 

 

Regarding Terminators - there has to be a cleaner way to increase their durability than this +1 save nonsense.

Why is it nonsense? 1+ save seems pretty clean to me. The precedent for the mechanic is set by 7+ saves anyway.

 

 

Yeah I don't understand why some people have a hard time wrapping their head around it either.

 

 

It's not confusing, I just think it looks messy is all. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ guess that's just an unpopular opinion and mostly irrelevant. The real question, as above, is if it goes far enough. I'm not entirely convinced that's the case. 

[chapter master 454]

Space marines don't match their fluff.

Not talking novels or the like, read all the codexes. All of them. Marines were elite troops and have never been about numbers. Always these elites that mean a LOT in the field, I would argue that custodes are what marines should be NOW. Custodes should literally be just a handful of models, closing numbers closer to knights (after all, there are more knights in the universe than custodes!). One squad of marines should be a daunting foe to see, especially when it piles out of a drop pod that just flattened your partner squad to mush and the embarked just got out and gunned down the support two squads behind you with now two being sent over to handle your squad and you know: two is overkill for what you could do against them (jack squat). A captain should be a terrifying opponent for ANYONE to face, Eldar should quite literally be terrified of Space Marines in all reality as the only way to sure fire kill in one hit would be taking the head off, an Autarch would only match a captain purely because his speeds allows him to avoid being smacked but even then, one hit and he would be dead outright. Librarians should be torrents of barely contained power unleashed, fire and lightning scorching all who stand before them while they rend the mind of those who think cover is a saviour. Bikers should be quite literally sprays of blood wherever they charge, those things are apparently going stupid fast for what they carry and apparently they don't have any sort of charge benefit or run away trick?

 

There is NOTHING sold about marines and their lore.

 

I am not talking armies of 5 models like knights, but instead if someone brings 30 marines lead by a captain should be thinking oh crap, that is NOT going to die easily and hurt like hell. No, if we bring 30 marines (3 tactical squads, so HALF of a battle companies tacticals) and a captain (1 of 10 in 1000 marines) our opponent will look at that and think "great, 4 free kill points with no threat".

 

Marines should have heavy impact rules for their assault guys like assault marines and bikers. Their ranged weapons should being something we fear, their ability to aim is honed to a razoredge that could only be matched by dark reapers and exceeded by vindicares! I would think a marine could put the crosshairs of a lascannon on exact spots of tanks and have much more effect than the standard trooper. I would think their ability to take a power sword to the chest would be a pain to many melee fighter including banshees and EVEN Callidus assassins! There is a massive disconnect with their lore and their rules.

 

Ether tone back fluff or tone UP rules.

 

For now, only fix is to let us marines horde out like orks with primaris to be good.

[PeteySödes]

Honest question, have they actually said they are retooling marines in CA or are people just wishlisting? I ask because theyve started to already announce more and more things that ARE included and i havent seen any indication.

 

I know it exists to tweak points but Im wondering if people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

[Lemondish]

Honest question, have they actually said they are retooling marines in CA or are people just wishlisting? I ask because theyve started to already announce more and more things that ARE included and i havent seen any indication.

 

I know it exists to tweak points but Im wondering if people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

It's been rumoured for a long time now, with a lot of smoke suggestion there's some sort of marine tweak coming. Whether that results in a teaser in the next several weeks, we'll see.

[PeteySödes]

 

Honest question, have they actually said they are retooling marines in CA or are people just wishlisting? I ask because theyve started to already announce more and more things that ARE included and i havent seen any indication.

 

I know it exists to tweak points but Im wondering if people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

It's been rumoured for a long time now, with a lot of smoke suggestion there's some sort of marine tweak coming. Whether that results in a teaser in the next several weeks, we'll see.

 

 

Yea thats kinda what i was afraid of.

[Panzer]

 

 

Honest question, have they actually said they are retooling marines in CA or are people just wishlisting? I ask because theyve started to already announce more and more things that ARE included and i havent seen any indication.

 

I know it exists to tweak points but Im wondering if people are setting themselves up for disappointment.

It's been rumoured for a long time now, with a lot of smoke suggestion there's some sort of marine tweak coming. Whether that results in a teaser in the next several weeks, we'll see.

 

 

Yea thats kinda what i was afraid of.

 

 

The exact rumour actually is something along the lines of "Marine player will like the coming CA". That is literally no information at all and I have no reason to think Marines will be getting anywhere near the kind of rework they'd need. Points adjustments, sure. More relics and traits etc, probably. Like anyone else. An extensive Marine re-work like we would want it? Extremely unlikely.

[autek mor]

Space marines don't match their fluff.

Not talking novels or the like, read all the codexes. All of them. Marines were elite troops and have never been about numbers. Always these elites that mean a LOT in the field, I would argue that custodes are what marines should be NOW. Custodes should literally be just a handful of models, closing numbers closer to knights (after all, there are more knights in the universe than custodes!). One squad of marines should be a daunting foe to see, especially when it piles out of a drop pod that just flattened your partner squad to mush and the embarked just got out and gunned down the support two squads behind you with now two being sent over to handle your squad and you know: two is overkill for what you could do against them (jack squat). A captain should be a terrifying opponent for ANYONE to face, Eldar should quite literally be terrified of Space Marines in all reality as the only way to sure fire kill in one hit would be taking the head off, an Autarch would only match a captain purely because his speeds allows him to avoid being smacked but even then, one hit and he would be dead outright. Librarians should be torrents of barely contained power unleashed, fire and lightning scorching all who stand before them while they rend the mind of those who think cover is a saviour. Bikers should be quite literally sprays of blood wherever they charge, those things are apparently going stupid fast for what they carry and apparently they don't have any sort of charge benefit or run away trick?

 

There is NOTHING sold about marines and their lore.

 

I am not talking armies of 5 models like knights, but instead if someone brings 30 marines lead by a captain should be thinking oh crap, that is NOT going to die easily and hurt like hell. No, if we bring 30 marines (3 tactical squads, so HALF of a battle companies tacticals) and a captain (1 of 10 in 1000 marines) our opponent will look at that and think "great, 4 free kill points with no threat".

 

Marines should have heavy impact rules for their assault guys like assault marines and bikers. Their ranged weapons should being something we fear, their ability to aim is honed to a razoredge that could only be matched by dark reapers and exceeded by vindicares! I would think a marine could put the crosshairs of a lascannon on exact spots of tanks and have much more effect than the standard trooper. I would think their ability to take a power sword to the chest would be a pain to many melee fighter including banshees and EVEN Callidus assassins! There is a massive disconnect with their lore and their rules.

 

Ether tone back fluff or tone UP rules.

 

For now, only fix is to let us marines horde out like orks with primaris to be good.

 

this has been a issue for quite a while but what bothers me about it the most as that we know they could make marines closer to the fluff without breaking the game. this is why i keep on bringing up the deathguard codex as that is a good example of the fluff being represented in play. maybe GW just doesn't have the time at the moment to focus on marines and their equipment which is why we are most likely going to get point drops. when they do get to the second round of codexes, all marines regardless of books except the deathguard need to be more durable if GW want to bring the narrative of marines enduring against all odds blazing away with their boltguns.

[Lemondish]

this has been a issue for quite a while but what bothers me about it the most as that we know they could make marines closer to the fluff without breaking the game. this is why i keep on bringing up the deathguard codex as that is a good example of the fluff being represented in play. maybe GW just doesn't have the time at the moment to focus on marines and their equipment which is why we are most likely going to get point drops. when they do get to the second round of codexes, all marines regardless of books except the deathguard need to be more durable if GW want to bring the narrative of marines enduring against all odds blazing away with their boltguns.

Hell, Deathguard could stand to also be a bit more capable. I almost never see Plague Marines, or even Rubrics and CSM for that matter.

[autek mor]

 

this has been a issue for quite a while but what bothers me about it the most as that we know they could make marines closer to the fluff without breaking the game. this is why i keep on bringing up the deathguard codex as that is a good example of the fluff being represented in play. maybe GW just doesn't have the time at the moment to focus on marines and their equipment which is why we are most likely going to get point drops. when they do get to the second round of codexes, all marines regardless of books except the deathguard need to be more durable if GW want to bring the narrative of marines enduring against all odds blazing away with their boltguns.

Hell, Deathguard could stand to also be a bit more capable. I almost never see Plague Marines, or even Rubrics and CSM for that matter.

 

 

that is true, horde still currently rules but at least the deathguard can take a pounding if they whiff their shooting or assaults unlike the loyalists. surviving mortal wounds is quite nice too.

[Lemondish]

 

The exact rumour actually is something along the lines of "Marine player will like the coming CA". That is literally no information at all and I have no reason to think Marines will be getting anywhere near the kind of rework they'd need. Points adjustments, sure. More relics and traits etc, probably. Like anyone else. An extensive Marine re-work like we would want it? Extremely unlikely.

I think the most important part about that is it's from someone who would know.

 

But at the same time, that same someone is notorious for being very positive about marines in general. That muddies the waters a bit.

[Beta galactosidase]

Not talking novels or the like, read all the codexes. All of them. Marines were elite troops and have never been about numbers. Always these elites that mean a LOT in the field, I would argue that custodes are what marines should be NOW. Custodes should literally be just a handful of models, closing numbers closer to knights (after all, there are more knights in the universe than custodes!). One squad of marines should be a daunting foe to see, especially when it piles out of a drop pod

 

Alright, I'll bite. For all their stats, there isn't much shock and awe about Custodes' shooting. Tactical squads etcetera would need more shooting rules, wouldn't they.

 

If a model doesn't have a -1 penalty from moving, it may fire an additional time this shooting phase.  This means models that made a run move may shoot normally, models that moved but didn't run may double their shooting on all weapons except heavy weapons, and models that did not move may double all their shooting.  This means all power armored models including TDA.  Now you can run and shoot your plasma gun  or stay still and have a heavy6 heavy bolter.  Yes it's better than aggressors are now.

 

And then yeah, throw an extra attack on all the marine squads, so their cc units can actually kill things in cc.

 

Then, any model like a marine veteran who's shooting at a conscript, or even a basic tactical marine, should be able to shoot more effectively and get a -1 ap, no matter what he's shooting with. It just makes sense for that to be a universal rule for good models.  If it's based on attacks, basic marines with two attacks get -1 ap against most units in the game, and veterans both get it against almost everything and don't have to worry about it hurting them from almost any enemy.

 

Base size seems to be more of a variable, given that the orks are now on 32mm as well as PA marines, and ofc Custodians have big bases too.  I think that should be something marine rules can outright take advantage of.  You write a whole class of rules that work "if an enemy model is on the same size base or smaller."

 

There'd be a nice sweet spot if marines could get buffed to 17 - 19 points per model and be worth it, but you can't do that just by buffing up their wounds and ap.  Custodes are an effectively cc-based and somewhat niche army.

 

Their ranged weapons should being something we fear, their ability to aim is honed to a razoredge that could only be matched by dark reapers and exceeded by vindicares! I would think a marine could put the crosshairs of a lascannon on exact spots of tanks and have much more effect than the standard trooper.

 

Yeah, anything that's godly level good at shooting should have an increased effect, marines first among them.  I'd like it to be based on their high leadership leadership tests, but those don't exist in 8th edition so it's got to be something else.

 

I would think their ability to take a power sword to the chest would be a pain to many melee fighter including banshees and EVEN Callidus assassins!

 

Seems to me like since Eldar are all formidable ancients who make marines look like bright teenagers, and since aspect warriors are the eldar who follow the same kind of 17 hour a day training that marines do, that Aspects should have s4 too, or at least exarchs should, and if marines have 2 attacks then aspects should definitely have 2a also.

 

A captain should be a terrifying opponent for ANYONE to face, Eldar should quite literally be terrified of Space Marines in all reality as the only way to sure fire kill in one hit would be taking the head off, an Autarch would only match a captain purely because his speeds allows him to avoid being smacked but even then, one hit and he would be dead outright. Librarians should be torrents of barely contained power unleashed, fire and lightning scorching all who stand before them while they rend the mind of those who think cover is a saviour. Bikers should be quite literally sprays of blood wherever they charge, those things are apparently going stupid fast for what they carry and apparently they don't have any sort of charge benefit or run away trick?

 

Sure, massacre everything.  There are also Necron Immortals and the Hive Fleets out there and I think 50% of the time even when marines win they should do it standing on a pile of their own corpses.  After all that's what the box art was on everyone's first warhammer game, or so I like to pretend.

 

 

 

Hell, Deathguard could stand to also be a bit more capable. I almost never see Plague Marines, or even Rubrics and CSM for that matter.

 

They pretty much have regular bolters for a huge points cost per model.  Even Rubrics' guns are unspectacular relative to their points per model.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is a bad edition for SM with horde finally getting the preferential treatment over elites. GW hands out 3+ like candy and Ld7 is the norm. The thing is there have been other editions when SM just were not very competitive. I just wouldn't get my hopes TBH for any great miracles from CA.

[Closet Skeleton]

This is a bad edition for SM with horde finally getting the preferential treatment over elites. GW hands out 3+ like candy and Ld7 is the norm. The thing is there have been other editions when SM just were not very competitive. I just wouldn't get my hopes TBH for any great miracles from CA.

There have been like 2 editions where marines were competitive and one of those involved free razorbacks while the other involved assaults from rhinos.

 

Then there was that edition where marine armies were just rhino parking lots and now that I mention that I remember that the best marine list at the start of the edition was assault cannon razorbacks while rhinos with two storm bolters and a hunter killer are still comparatively points efficient survivable firepower compared to a tactical squad despite mechanized marines being currently priced out of the game.

 

Troops tax scouts have existed every edition, the last time tactical squads had a golden age was when you were forced to take them so you could hide them in boxes for free. The last time foot marines was a thing was the Matt Ward Codex: Blood Chalice where you could take assault marines as troops and pretend tacticals didn't exist yet even from that book marines mostly went mechanized with (again free/discounted) razorbacks.

 

I did fine with chaos marine troops in the early days of the edition. Its not the core rules or the armour save mechanics that make marines bad. 8th edition doesn't favour hordes because its not hordes that are good, only very specific hordes are good. Abaddon and cultist spam is the best chaos list but I've only seen it at multiple tournaments and it only came close to winning once. You see hormagaunts dominating top tables? Infantry guard? 8th edition is dominated by elite units like Shining Spears, knights, talos, . Marines aren't bad because they're elites, they're bad because they aren't good elites. Plague bearer spam isn't good (andespite being very powerful it rarely wins events) because its a horde list its good because its T4 5++ 5+++ horde with a -1 to hit mechanic just like conscripts were good when they were fearless and could receive orders.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That is not true about the competitiveness of SM. IMO the codex written by Graham McNeil was hands down the best. Remember when you could run 5 man las/plas tactical squads and terminators could take two heavy weapons per five ? Assault cannons were the weapon of choice and terminators rocked.

 

It is utterly ridiculous these restrictions still apply now.

 

At the very end of Rogue Trader, they made Marines T4 and made their power armor 3+ (it used to be T3 and 4+) because the other races had gotten too powerful around them. What GW really needs is to let someone who really loves SM write their rules and do them justice.

[autek mor]

That is not true about the competitiveness of SM. IMO the codex written by Graham McNeil was hands down the best. Remember when you could run 5 man las/plas tactical squads and terminators could take two heavy weapons per five ? Assault cannons were the weapon of choice and terminators rocked.

 

It is utterly ridiculous these restrictions still apply now.

 

At the very end of Rogue Trader, they made Marines T4 and made their power armor 3+ (it used to be T3 and 4+) because the other races had gotten too powerful around them. What GW really needs is to let someone who really loves SM write their rules and do them justice.

 

i loved that codex, i still have it but i don't read it because i cry every time i see 5 man squads of terminators allowed to carry two heavy weapons. that aside it was a really good and fun idea to allow players to create their own chapters with the system in that book. it was a waste for GW to discard that system. we now have a book that is very restrictive because of unit costs and underpowered compared to many other books.

 

funny how even back in the days of rogue trader they knew that durability was a big issue for their flagship army. i get that game balance is important but when other armies tend to get good rules quite often "cough eldar cough" i find it hard to believe they are really trying hard to make marines do what they do best. 

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said GW needs to find somebody brilliant that loves Space Marines and let them write a new codex. Look what Gav Thorpe and Phil Kelly did for eldar.

[Closet Skeleton]

That is not true about the competitiveness of SM. IMO the codex written by Graham McNeil was hands down the best. Remember when you could run 5 man las/plas tactical squads and terminators could take two heavy weapons per five ? Assault cannons were the weapon of choice and terminators rocked.

 

 

I never played 4th edition so wouldn't know. I used the 2 assault cannon terminators in 5th ed (then stopped because assault terminators were so much better) and still have the 5 man 1 special 1 heavy tacticals to this day. My 8th ed rapid fire 2 cataphracti Death Guard terminators are better and fluffier than my 2 assault cannon ones ever were.

 

But tactical squads being the best when you didn't actually use 10 man ones is telling. Its not the removal of the AP5 that made bolters sub par if Space Marines were always about "the more non-bolters the better". I was just as put off the marine rules by guys in 4th and 5th ed talking about keeping their tacticals in rhinos all game and firing the non-bolter weapons out of the firepoints as I am by playing with them in 8th ed (where i still do and for some stupid reason haven't given up on).

 

 

What GW really needs is to let someone who really loves SM write their rules and do them justice.

 

They did that he was called Matt Ward, except somehow his Ultramarines codex was his weakest one.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Five man tactical squads could take a lascannon and a plasma gun plus the sergeant with a power fist and bolt pistol had three attacks on the charge. They have never been the same since then... oh well the good old days. A squad of five terminators with two assault cannons and were better than their assault counterparts because the stormshield was only 4++.

[Slasher956]

trouble is SMs are the poster boys so get the first dex of an edition, there for every other faction has a goal post to equal or beat.... on top of being the vanilla approach to rules (eg eldar tear up the movement part of the rules, necrons the if your dead remove from the game part, guard with multiples to a choice (inf platoons, tank sqns etc )etc etc)

 

If they where the 3rd or 4th dex & had a rules brake mechanic that was their thing then they would be easier to up power

[Sloeberjong]

I think GW missed an opportunity they themselves created. There's way more they could do with toughness and wounds. Since everything can wound anything right now it's not too much to give SM T5-6 and Terminators T7-8 and 3 wounds each (no diffence between primaris and normal marines, another mistake IMO, Primaris should've been the new models for SM, end of story). Vehicles probably could've used even more (in general, T10+). This should go with a points adjustment obviously since this would make them weaker versions of characters. Characters should not get 8 wounds or anything, more than 6 would be nuts. This should make them properly elite, like they should be.

 

Getting wounded by low str. small arms fire will be much rarer (6+ instead of 5+) while AT weapons will still have a decent chance. 

 

This won't be done ever probably. But the game lends itself to more difference right now and GW has let this opportunity go. SM are now more expensive IG. Maybe a special rule for droppods that lets you strike in the first turn for CP or something. They are the angels of death after all. 

 

Now this is just me whislisting a bit since I don't expect CA to do more than a points/CP adjustment. Ruleswise SM will probably be what they are now (bland) since GW will never do anything radical this deep into 8th and with most codexes out.