"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Bjorn Firewalker]

On a different note, here are my notes for Chaplain changes so far:

Chaplain Cassius: Add "Armour of Contempt: Chaplain Cassius may attempt to deny two psychic powers in each enemy Psychic phase as long as the enemy Psyker attempting to manifest the powers is within 12 inches"

Why the 12" limitation? Are the Chaplains denying the psychic powers by quickly drawing their pistols and shooting the enemy psyker, the resulting distraction robbing the psyker of the focus needed to manifest his/her/its powers?

[Kallas]

And as for Assault Marines, a though that crosses my mind is giving them an ability that when they complete a charge roll a die for every model and on a 6 they inflict a mortal wound (5 or 6 for Vanguard vets).

 

I get the purpose, but anything that triggers on 6s is inherently unreliable (especially when it's a roll that can't be buffed with +1s) and is generally pretty crap. If that were added on to Assault Marines after they got dropped to like 9pts? Sure. As a fix to them in their current state? Achieves nothing. 

 

[BitsHammer]

 

On a different note, here are my notes for Chaplain changes so far:

Chaplain Cassius: Add "Armour of Contempt: Chaplain Cassius may attempt to deny two psychic powers in each enemy Psychic phase as long as the enemy Psyker attempting to manifest the powers is within 12 inches"

Why the 12" limitation? Are the Chaplains denying the psychic powers by quickly drawing their pistols and shooting the enemy psyker, the resulting distraction robbing the psyker of the focus needed to manifest his/her/its powers?

 

I was trying to not make them as good at actual psykers at deny the witch (since psykers get it at 24" range).

 

I'd settle for the same range as Smite (which is 18" I believe without looking at the rulebook?) as a happy middle ground.

[BitsHammer]

 

And as for Assault Marines, a though that crosses my mind is giving them an ability that when they complete a charge roll a die for every model and on a 6 they inflict a mortal wound (5 or 6 for Vanguard vets).

 

I get the purpose, but anything that triggers on 6s is inherently unreliable (especially when it's a roll that can't be buffed with +1s) and is generally pretty crap. If that were added on to Assault Marines after they got dropped to like 9pts? Sure. As a fix to them in their current state? Achieves nothing. 

 

9 point Assault Marines implies 8 point tacticals (or less) which would be INCREDIBLY broken.

 

I was thinking more of as a way to give them back the old Hammer of Wrath. Remember they'd have the same buffs as Tacticals (ignore the first -1 AP, treat weapons as doing 1 damage less to a minimum of 1, chainswords and bolt pistols being -1 AP) which would help them a fair bit to start with.

[Aarik]

What about giving additional squad members beyond the minimum size a points decrease, like in HH?

[Kallas]

9 point Assault Marines implies 8 point tacticals (or less) which would be INCREDIBLY broken.

That's kind of the point. It'd basically have to be a free ability in their current state, because they are utterly pathetic and a 6+ ability is unreliable in the best of circumstances.

 

I was thinking more of as a way to give them back the old Hammer of Wrath. Remember they'd have the same buffs as Tacticals (ignore the first -1 AP, treat weapons as doing 1 damage less to a minimum of 1, chainswords and bolt pistols being -1 AP) which would help them a fair bit to start with.

Ignoring AP-1, great; gaining AP-1, good.

 

6+ MW generation? Still bad, and GW loves costing those highly. AM need volume to carve through hordes, a Hammer of Wrath-type effect could be:

+1 Attack on charge, 6+ to hit on charge generates an additional Attack.

 

That would keep it as an aggressive offence ability, be actually useful (+1A on charge) with an extra rider that might crop up (6+ with a 2/3 Attack model isn't amazing, but a unit of five should trigger it a few times).

[CCE1981]

Random thoughts after reading:

 

Not losing more than a single model to the morale phaae should Marine wide, with TSKNF Marines just don’t run.

 

Iron Resolve with the Shield Eternal on an Iron Hands Character would be some tank.

 

Flamestorm Gauntlets: I think a 10” range to hit Deep Strikers is enough.

 

Demolisher Cannon: instead of shots how about straight up hits?

D3 hits for every 5 models in the target unit. This makes Vindicators a lot more apealung.

 

After using Primaris, I feel that their durability is where Space Marines should be. I am a big fan of giving Space Marines with the exceprion of characters and scouts +1 wound, and attack. To assuage the people that are scared of Primaris getting too many wounds we can add in non-Gravis armoured Primaris as well. Something to give Primaris something else in return - a wounded Primaris model gains +1 str.

 

Invulnerable saves on Terminators needs some sort of re-work in most situations it’s useless, basically it only matters against melta, relics, and anti-large.

 

Heavy Plasma Incinerator, Stalker Bolt Rifle: let’s make them different, I am thinking damage 2 base. Yes, the Heavy Plasma Incinerator would be damage 3 on overcharge and the Dark Angels would be able to get that t to 4. Isn’t one complaint about Primaris the need for anti-tank? This way it is a trade off, fewer shots but higher damage per shot.

 

Dreadnought weapons: Most Dreadnought heavy weapons need a boost. The Twin-Lascannon is good, the other weapons not so much. The missle launcher shoul fire two shots, the plasma cannon (and Macro-Plasma Cannon) base 2 damage, the Multi-melta - 2 shot.

[Captain Idaho]

RE: Psyker denies for Chaplains - good to me though I'd change the name so it doesn't clash with the Strategum of the same name. The 12" range isn't just a limiter but also encourages a Chaplain to get to grips with the foe. Very appropriate.

 

An alternative that I suspect is a little complex and I'd imagine wouldn't be as simple as the above would be to allow a Chaplain to act as an Auspex for Psykers.

 

Once per turn, if an enemy Psyker uses a power within 12" of a Chaplain, or affects a Chapter unit within 3" of the Chaplain, the Chaplain or a single infantry or bike unit within 3" of him can immediately fire at the Psyker or make close combat attacks if within 12"

[Schlitzaf]

Honestly I think giving Power Armored Marines +1 Wound (no attack bonus). And by extension Terminators get +1. My argument for this is Characters are stated Wound-1 for attack stats.

 

Basically keeping points as they are, but give all non-character power armored marines and terminators (beside Primaris) +1 wound. This would mean Primaris have the niche of an additonal attack. And a better gun. 2 wounds makes Astartes no longer vulnerable to small arm fire.

 

That all said. My biggest thing, here is. That instead of playing Space Marines imagine sitting across from an Astartes List? If all there models had 2 wounds. Given Primaris exists, I think that isn’t a issue to be worried about.

 

That my 2 cents.

[Wargamer]

Yeah... skeptical as I have been in the past, I've seen enough and played enough now to be swayed. W2 A1 for regular Marines and W2 A2 for Primaris / Veterans is the way to go.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That nerfs Primaris.

[Kallas]

imagine sitting across from an Astartes List? If all there models had 2 wounds. Given Primaris exists, I think that isn’t a issue to be worried about.

 

Even if Primaris got a wound improvement, and every Astartes model got an extra attack it wouldn't break the bank.

 

Your statement/question of 'imagine sitting across from an Astartes list': so what? That's basically the same for every faction! Tau - a million Fire Warriors, Fusion Coldstars; Eldar - Dark Reapers, Wave Serpents, Wraithguard; Dark Eldar - Wyches, Ravagers, Venoms; Death Guard - Disgustingly Resilient everywhere, a million Poxwalkers; etc, etc.

 

Every faction brings tools to the table that need a response, either tactically or through options your models bring. Currently, Astartes of all stripes are pretty easily managed just through the general purpose weaponry that most factions bring (even the humble Lasgun, given the sheer volume that they're brought in, is enough!) such as the ubiquitous Plasma, or Tau Pulse Rifles, Dark Eldar poisoned weapons, etc, etc.

 

Astartes don't present much of anything that gives anyone any kind of pause: our infantry are pathetic; our speed is mediocre (and our fast stuff isn't particularly cost effective); our melee prowess is, well, pants; our ranged capability is mediocre at best; our vehicles are subpar. Our stuff is either middle of the road at best, and outright terrible and/or overcosted. A wound and attack increase across the board would not be unreasonable.

[Servant of Dante]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348125-codex-space-marines-amendments/

 

This is probably one of the “other same threads” people mentioned, though it has run its course

[Wargamer]

That nerfs Primaris.

It leaves Primaris unchanged.

[Captain Idaho]

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/348125-codex-space-marines-amendments/

This is probably one of the “other same threads” people mentioned, though it has run its course

My the original poster in that linked topic is good looking.

[UnkyHamHam]

That nerfs Primaris.

That's like saying Primaris existing nerfs old marines. Or the Vanguard existing nerfs Assault Marines.

[Ishagu]

Well Primaris do have a different stat-line that makes them Primaris.

[Schlitzaf]

Kallas to be fair I did note “Primaris existing shows this shouldn’t be an issue.”

[Blindhamster]

primaris would need a significant point decrease if they didn't also get the extra wound.

because the extra attack and reduced options certainly wouldn't justify the difference in cost anymore.

[Panzer]

Agreed. The real advantage of Primaris are the additional wound and then the better Bolter. But mainly the additional wound.

[SillyDreadnought]

And that's an advantage that's so easily negated that it rarely comes into effect unless they're being shot at by incidental fire from an infantry unit with nothing else to shoot.

[Ishagu]

It comes into effect plenty of time. Is there nothing in your list but infantry for an opponent to shoot at?

 

A 5 man squad of Intercessors can take 3 wounds and suffer only a single casualty. The same would cripple a 5 man squad of Tacticals. This comes up in CC, when engaging light infantry, etc quite often.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think extra wounds is a bit much and won’t come to pass. I’d rather see more options for Primaris.

[SillyDreadnought]

It comes into effect plenty of time. Is there nothing in your list but infantry for an opponent to shoot at?

 

A 5 man squad of Intercessors can take 3 wounds and suffer only a single casualty. The same would cripple a 5 man squad of Tacticals. This comes up in CC, when engaging light infantry, etc quite often.

 

And that's all well and good against say, bolter or lasgun fire.

 

But the moment any army decides to bring out it's abundant 2 damage weapons and point them at a Primaris squad, that Primaris squad vanishes. And yes, while this same weapons bracket of 2 damage weapons would erase a Tactical Squad just as easily, it reduces the points investment in an intercessor squad to a "Why did I spend points on that and not Scouts?" question.

 

Maybe your local meta allows you to freely have your Intercessors run around and take only light damage, but in mine, where autocannons and plasma guns and other weapons of similar profile ( or better ) are abundant and often make up the majority of firepower coming at me, Intercessors are better off hiding in the Repulsor for 4 turns than running around with their S4 weapons and trying to facetank incoming damage.

 

So the 2 wounds is an advantage that is so easily negated unless they're being shot at by... light weapons.

 

Hmm, it's almost as if I said that. Huh. Funny that.

[Panzer]

You're acting as if there are lots of armies that have no D1 weapons in their lists all the time. Most lists still have plenty of D1 weapons.