"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Come on Silly Dreadnaught - you have scary things in your army to keep the enemy occupied targeting. My Intercessor squads often survive games unscathed.

[Kallas]

I think extra wounds is a bit much and won’t come to pass. I’d rather see more options for Primaris.

I strongly disagree that extra wounds would be too much, and while more Primaris options would be good they don't fix the awful state of regular Marines - if anything all they'd do is further invalidate them, which would be worse for those of us who don't want our investments (of time, money and effort) completely :cuss all over.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

It is not going to happen. I wish terminators have 8" movement - yadda yadda yadda .

[Kallas]

It is not going to happen. I wish terminators have 8" movement - yadda yadda yadda .

Any particular reason? The extra wounds wouldn't break the game and would make Marines actually decent.

 

Making Terminators inexplicably faster is a strawman because it has nothing to do with the point. Extra wounds fits the lore (ie, Marines being actually transhuman) whereas fast Terminators breaks it (Terminators are certainly not faster than Power Armour).

 

Besides being a fairly widespread change, is there any reason to not give extra wounds to Marines (of all stripes)?

[MyD4rkPassenger]

It would be fantastic for DA, BA, SW, GK, and CSM as well, however the caveat now comes how do you handle those armies faction specific units.  I can't speak for the varied Imperial SM but I'd be ecstatic if my plague and rubric marines just get an extra wound and I just can't see that happening.  Would terminators get 3 wounds, would then my Custodes all get extra wounds after since they are touted as being tougher then any marine?  I just can't see stat-line changes happening.  I think the only way to improve a basic marine in any codex is to look at the points and wargear rules until a new edition is ready to come out.  Too much in this game is based off the current marine stat-line.

 

Plus as it stands everyone seems to be harping on how deadly D2 weapons are to even Primaris so I don't see the appeal of giving a standard marine an extra wound if there are so many autocannon equivalents hitting our armies as it stands now.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I can see terminators being faster just like Allarus tbh.

[Kallas]

I can see terminators being faster just like Allarus tbh.

Are Allarus faster than other Custodes though? Terminator Armour doesn't include improved mobility, generally speaking; Tartaros does, and that brings it up to regular PA speed.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

No they are not. But they have the same movement as Guardians, Shield-Captains on foot and Wardens. So at the very least I can see terminators moving at the same speed as Marines.

I was sad to see new Blood Claws costed at around 13 points and Fenrisian Wolves have gone up from 6 to 8 points... doesn’t bode well.

[Panzer]

Space Wolves having no serious points drop was to be expected. Their Codex was most likely finished months ago already and if they are going to touch the point values of Marines it will be for all of them via Chapter Approved.

[Wargamer]

Little thing that jumped out at me as needing a fix.

A regular Dreadnought is 70 points with no weapons and has to pay more than half that for a DCCW.

An Ironclad is 10 points more and gets a DCCW for free.

Since I really don't see anyone complaining that Ironclads are too cheap or overpowered, I can only conclude that Dreadnoughts in general need a points drop (possibly excluding Ironclad) or the DCCW needs to be cheaper / free.

[Ishagu]

I think all Astartes will be adjusted simultaneously in Chapter Approved

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I think all Astartes will be adjusted simultaneously in Chapter Approved

Let's hope so. I'll sing my army's praise all day, but I can admit they're behind the curve.

[autek mor]

how is a combat blade just as effective as a chainsword? at least a -1 rend buff may make units equipped with them more appealing.

[Panzer]

Combat blades with -1 would be awesome. If such a change comes I hope it will be before I decide to build my other 5 with Carbines lol

[Sete]

Why not a squad heavy Chainsword (Cawl Pattern ®™ obviously) with +1 Str -1 Rend.

 

Then Greatswords with +2 Str and -3 rend.

We know we wants it.

[autek mor]

 

Why not a squad heavy Chainsword (Cawl Pattern ®™ obviously) with +1 Str -1 Rend.

 

Then Greatswords with +2 Str and -3 rend.

We know we wants it.

 

i'm all for it. i'm not asking for the loyalists to be good as khorne bezerkers but at least make non terminator armoured squads be able to put a dent in 3+ armour saves or lower in melee at an affordable points cost.

 

@sfPanzer

 

what if combat blades have the -1 and the chainswords do an extra wound on +6?

 

 

 

[BitsHammer]

So in the interest of trying to consolidate which units are the perceived "stinkers" I'm going to list all the ones I know and people should add on if I'm missing anything:

EVERYTHING: Saves aren't as valuable with massed amounts of AP and no mitigation, multiple wounds aren't as valuable as many players rely on D2 weapons for anti-tank/-monster, ATSKNF doesn't mitigate the way a larger squad falls apart if you actually run 10 man units. Additionally everything has trouble killing enough enemy models per turn due to low numbers of shots/attacks when compared to a lot of other armies (due to lower number of models on the table when compared to other armies). If a unit isn't mentioned by name below, it probably has this problem anyways.

All Chaplains: "Everything" +Only buffs melee and LD, but it's aura is easily outdone by a chapter master for re-rolls and Ld isn't important in an edition that punishes 10 man Marine squads

Tacticals: Everything + and a lack of reliable transport options,

Intercessors: Everything +stalker pattern bolt rifle pays for a loss in firepower with no mitigation by allowing for targetting of characters or being heavy 2 to make up for lossed mobility

Scouts: Having access to bolters makes them cheap troops that overlap too much with Tacticals and Intercessors. Perhaps changing them to an "assualt bolter" like the Assault Bolt Rifle (lower AP, 2 shots at 18", assault weapon profile) might mitigate this by making the unit feel more like a harrassment force

Crusaders: Everything +lack of dedicated melee buffs to ensure that when the unit gets into combat it hits harder than a sleeping Tau.

Terminators (all flavors): Everything +Loss of ignoring penalties for moving and shooting (which was part of why they're slower in the first place), Possibly could use a 2+ on BS/WS as well to mitigate combat penalties a bit, but honestly that's likely wishlisting once defensive buffs are applied

Sternguard Vets: Everything +loss of true specialist ammo has hampered what was once a well balanced and flexible unit

Vanguard Vets: Everything +no real bonuses towards melee to mitigate their points costs beyond the veterans +1 attack

Servitors: Suffer too heavily if you have to re-position them during a game for better shooting, loss of repair bonuses for Techmarines

Reivers: Everything +lack of quality attacks in melee means this unit can't hit anything tougher than Gretchin without losing a number of models, the grenade it too short range to hit enemy units when the unit drops in making it almost never used since clever deployment and charge moves are what the unit should be best at but 6" means it never gets used properly.

Aggressor Squad: Everything +flamer variant is too short ranged to ever benefit from the firestorm rule due to needing to constantly advance to get into range (and due to Relentless Assault they pay for that too despite auto-hitting with flamers).

Dreadnoughts (all types): Everything +lack of mitigation for moving and shooting; lack of some built in protection against anti-tank weapons (arguably since every Dreadnought is a former hero they should be Characters at least), lack of ability to take in squads of three, and the fact that this venerable hero of the chapter can't effectively fight hordes with melee variants makes this one often left at home by most people

Centurion Assault Squad: Everything +slow moving melee unit with a lack of strong deployment options and a lack of good melee bonuses

Bike Squad: Everything +taking an all bike army is punished by lowered amounts of CP.

Assault Squad: Everything +lack of melee bonuses for a melee focused unit, lack of ranged options for a unit that seems to be a dedicated harassment unit,

Land Speeders: Everything +loss of fast vehicle bonuses (moving and shooting at reduced or no penalty)

Attack Bike Squad: Everything +loss of "relentless" rules that made it possible to effectively move and fire heavy weapons

Devastators: Everything +loss of reliable extra wounds by taking large squads with bolter marines due to morale issues

Centurions: Everything +slow with a lack of reliable options to get them near their proper targets

Hellblasters: Everything +Heavy Weapon option lacks volume of fire to make it effective against vehicles or to make up for the lowered effectiveness while moving

Tanks (all): Everything +loss of the ability to move and shoot forces tanks to form parking lots instead of using good mobility to move around the board for better positioning, and all variants (save maybe the Land Raiders and Rhinos) should be able to be taken in squads of three (that then split up into separate units). Additionally, the lack of chapter tactics is just silly. The lack of options for dozer blades (which could be melee weapons used on the charge) is also rather odd considering it's a part in almost every vehicle kit. Almost every vehicle has a base points cost that is too high as well.

Predator: Everything +Kill shot is too restrictive to use

Vindicator: Everything +Linebreaker Bombardment is too restrictive to see use

Rhino: Everything +too expensive in its current form, especially since it can't ignore terrain types like flying vehicles and Chimeras can, also lacks fire ports which it had for some time.

Guilliman: Honestly costs too much for what is effectively a Chapter Master reroll buff. If it's really a problem change the reroll to not affect vehicles without the Dreadnought keyword.

Now, did I miss anything, or do I basically have the right idea for the units?

[Sea-People]

Might want to add Drop Pods to the list. The OG 8th edition stinker.

[autek mor]

Might want to add Drop Pods to the list. The OG 8th edition stinker.

 

you know your codex is bad when you can't even fight effectively like they do in the fluff.

[BitsHammer]

Might want to add Drop Pods to the list. The OG 8th edition stinker.

Other than the issues for vehicles the only thing I could say is that they lose out from beta strike, but all of our deep striking options do as Marines needed that alpha strike for board control, something we severely lack now.

[Guest Triszin]

what if you could deploy drop pods as a shooting attack/CP related and enter during the shooting phase?

then shoot or charge the same phase they arrive?

 

i sold my pods as i couldnt figure out a real use for em

[BitsHammer]

what if you could deploy drop pods as a shooting attack/CP related and enter during the shooting phase?

then shoot or charge the same phase they arrive?

 

i sold my pods as i couldnt figure out a real use for em

They almost need a rework from the ground up to work with the edition for sure. Maybe the beta rules won't be as restrictive but right now they're hurting for sure.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

This is definitely one of the best editions ever as far as I am concerned .

[Terrified Templar]

Concerning Sternguard I am not sure that the loss of specialist ammunition has really hurt us all that much, the only discernable loss are hellfire rounds which were extremely useful at tacking on lots of wounds. Kraken and Vengence rounds are pretty much covered as the Special Issue Boltguns kinda of get the best of both worlds with improved ranged and AP. Dragonfire is kinda pointless in this edition. In previous editions Dragonfire rounds were useful at taking out lightly armored units that relied on cover to survive since back then we used the old AP system which allowed us to cancel out both saves with lightly armored units. With the change to AP and Cover in this edition Dragonfire rounds don't matter since a high enough AP value will get the job done, with a -2AP we can negate cover and still reduce their armor save slightly. 

 

This is definitely one of the best editions ever as far as I am concerned .

 

Yes and no. Yes I think the rule system in this edition is pretty good and not as complex as the old systems. No where are Codex is concerned cause we've taken more losses than made gains in my opinion.

 

EDIT: Unless you're just talking about the 8th edition rules changes in general, if that's the case I am in full agreement with you.

[BitsHammer]

This is definitely one of the best editions ever as far as I am concerned .

It's a good edition, it's just been weilded with the care and finesse of a thunderhammer. The way it impacts armies hasn't been addressed well enough to maintain a semblance of balance between more elite armies and horde armies.

 

It's so bad I've seen people arguing that Marines should be pointed slightly above Scions. Yes, that's right, we should be playing a slightly chunkier horde army according to some. THAT is how bad the mighty Astartes has fallen this edition.