"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They were top tier with the rules for Armageddon.

[Medjugorje]

They were top tier with the rules for Armageddon.

oh, i forget this times. Back then I started 40k - I was young and need the money^^

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

They were really amazing back then and had two pages for rules - just shows you don’t really need a lot. :)

[Captain Idaho]

Just looking at the news and Warhammer Community site... so SoB are getting a new Beta Codex in Chapter Approved. That tells me we'll get nothing other than a few points changes for Codex Space Marines.

 

Pessimistic perhaps but can any of us see GW stuff Chapter Approved with a Codex AND demi-Codex (all the changes required for a start) in the same release?

[Kallas]

Just looking at the news and Warhammer Community site... so SoB are getting a new Beta Codex in Chapter Approved. That tells me we'll get nothing other than a few points changes for Codex Space Marines.

 

Pessimistic perhaps but can any of us see GW stuff Chapter Approved with a Codex AND demi-Codex (all the changes required for a start) in the same release?

I doubt we'll get big changes, but that's the advantage of pessimism: it's better to be surprised with a positive than surprised with a negative! :D

[Ishagu]

If the point reductions are substantial it can be a big boost. Imagine you can suddenly take a few extra squads in your army without sacrificing anything.

[redmapa]

I would rather have a set of stratagems that are actually useful instead of point reductions, I honestly hope that they dont forget about Black Templars IF Chapter Approved will be a mini-supplement for some armies, I would not like to have another Angels of Death situation. 

[BitsHammer]

Just looking at the news and Warhammer Community site... so SoB are getting a new Beta Codex in Chapter Approved. That tells me we'll get nothing other than a few points changes for Codex Space Marines.

 

Pessimistic perhaps but can any of us see GW stuff Chapter Approved with a Codex AND demi-Codex (all the changes required for a start) in the same release?

Probably not. That said, my final copy will be post FAQ just in case anything within the FAQ somehow fixes anything raised regarding Marines as a whole. It's a long shot, but better safe than sorry.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m sure they are well aware we aren’t happy. Kudos to everyone raising the flag.

[BitsHammer]

Just to give a status update: I am still working on this. I'm starting work on the first draft of the actual document that will be submitted and once that's done will be looking at feedback on how to clean it up or word it better. 

 

Also I've just about gone crosseyed lately from all the Astartes army reading I've been doing. A lot of hyperbole (6 point Assault Marines) and a lot of repeated ideas, but the repetition has helped me ensure I'm on the right track.

 

My biggest hope is that by giving the studio that outside perspective of Astartes (I've ultimately expanded my scope beyond the basic Astartes to include the unique units from the other books as well meaning this is turning into something that is turning into a monster, but since most of the changes needed can be summed up I'm not going to dwell on individual units as much as outside of the troops the biggest changes needed are durability related or needing to allow vehicles to benefit from CT/LT rules).

[Ishagu]

I would rather have a set of stratagems that are actually useful instead of point reductions, I honestly hope that they dont forget about Black Templars IF Chapter Approved will be a mini-supplement for some armies, I would not like to have another Angels of Death situation.

I've resigned myself to thinking that bigger changes like new rules and strats will only appear in a new codex or campaign book. It would be nice to be wrong!

[Ishagu]

To Fulkes:

 

Why do you think an assault marine at 6 points is hyperbole?

 

That's how much they are worth lol. You only need to look at other units from other books for a performance/point comparison.

 

I have already submitted a list of desired changes to GW, as has Captain Idaho. When I submitted my list I did so alongside various results and comparisons from competitive tournaments as well as comparison with other books. I'm not sure they need multiple sets of different requested changes, and I don't feel your chapter tactics suggestions go far enough to actually boost the Astartes a significant ammount.

 

Iron Hands only lose 1 model? I've never seen an Astartes unit lose more than one to morale anyway.

 

Roll 2 dice for flamers on Salamanders? A minimal buff that applies to unpopular weapons that won't have an impact.

 

No change to Ultras? The biggest weakness of the Codex is that our vehicles don't gain chapter tactics or special rules - that's what needs to be addressed.

 

Other changes like Chaplains denying powers within 12", that's fluffy but weak unfortunately. Easy to counter.

[Ishagu]

These were my proposals for changes and additions that would have an impact.

 

 

Chapter Tactics:

Ultramarines – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads. Vehicles can fire without penalty to their BS if they move half or less of their movement characteristic.

Raven Guard – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads, extend hit modifier to apply to vehicles that have remained stationary and are more than 12” away from an enemy unit that is targeting them.

Salamanders – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads, now also applies to vehicles. Add 3" to the maximum range of non heavy infantry weapons - does not affect rapid fire or melta rule.

Iron Hands – 5+ FNP to infantry and Dreadnoughts. Vehicles can regain D3 wounds at the end of each turn.

Black Templars – Re-roll charge distance. Strength increased by 1 on the turn in which a unit has made a successful charge.

Imperial Fists – Unchanged for infantry and Dreads. Vehicles are immune to hit modifiers when targeting enemy units but are still subject to movement penalties if applicable

White Scars - Unchanged for infantry and Dreads, Vehicles may advance and fire heavy weapons as if they were Assault Weapons.

 

 

Psychic powers:

Veil of Time – Unchanged

Might of Heroes – Now affects a whole unit, not just a single model

Psychic Scourge – Drop this power and replace with Warp Time going by a different name.

Fury of the Ancients – Drop this power and replace with Psychic Barrier (target a friendly unit and improve save by 1, WC6)

Psychic Fortress – now applies to all wounds, not just Mortal. Increase WC by 1

Null Zone – change to WC6

 

 

Unit changes:

Black Templars – Intercessors in a Black Templar detachment can take a Chainsword in addition to their existing wargear at no additional cost.

Landraider – Add the Steel Behemoth rule to this unit’s datasheet. It allows the unit to disengage from combat and still shoot/charge. In addition, it can shoot whilst enemy units are within 1” of this model.

Aggressors – Models in Gravis armour have a 2+ save. This should also apply to the Gravis Captain.

Redemptor Dreadnought – this model does not suffer a penalty to its BS when moving and firing heavy weapons

Razorback – change this unit’s battlefield role from Dedicated Transport to Fast Attack. This prevents the Spam of cheap tanks that scales badly when combined with re-roll auras.

Vindicator - Gyro Stabilising - Taken this rule from FW Tanks. It no longer suffers the BS Penalty for moving and shooting. The Siege Shield should be a 10/20 point upgrade that improves the save of the unit to 2+

 

 

Strategems:

This is a big one. Possibly the biggest failing of the book are the stratagems. They are so weak when compared to what other armies have access to and are limited to specific unit or require us to take multiple of units that we might not find appealing.

Here is a list of additional stratagems that would help to elevate the performance of the army.

Aggressor Protocols – 2 Command Points – a unit of aggressors can use the Fire Storm special rule even if has moved and advanced in the preceding movement phase.

Concealed fire – 1 Command Point. An Adeptus Astartes vehicle can fire all weapons as normal even if has used its smoke launchers in the same turn.

Trans-human agility – 2 Command points – an Adeptus Astartes unit may declare a charge even if has advanced this turn.

Angels of Death – 2 Command points – An Adeptus Astartes infantry unit may shoot twice in the shooting phase. It can also target a different unit when doing so.

Machine Spirit target lock – 1 Command Point – An Adeptus Astartes Vehicle may re-roll hit and wound rolls of 1 if it fires all weapons at the same target

Defensive Fire – 1 Command point – An Adeptus Astartes unit can hit on a 5 and 6 when firing Overwatch.

Sons of Dorn – 1 Command point – an Imperial Fist infantry unit may re-roll all hits and wound rolls of 1 when firing bolter weapons

Sigismund’s fury – 2 Command points – a Black Templar infantry unit may disembark from a transport and declare a charge from a transport after the vehicle has moved.

[Guest MistaGav]

 

Just looking at the news and Warhammer Community site... so SoB are getting a new Beta Codex in Chapter Approved. That tells me we'll get nothing other than a few points changes for Codex Space Marines.

 

Pessimistic perhaps but can any of us see GW stuff Chapter Approved with a Codex AND demi-Codex (all the changes required for a start) in the same release?

I doubt we'll get big changes, but that's the advantage of pessimism: it's better to be surprised with a positive than surprised with a negative!

 

I never expected anything more than a points changes but depending how major and how many units the points changes cover, it should be enough for now to give SM and other sub SM factions. If they can drop most things in the SM dex and others by about 20-25% that will be enough for now I reckon.

[ashc]

Nice suggestions Ishagu, subtle changes that would vastly improve the playability of the codex. Throw in some liberal points tweaks and it would help out immensely.

[Ishagu]

Nice suggestions Ishagu, subtle changes that would vastly improve the playability of the codex. Throw in some liberal points tweaks and it would help out immensely.

Yes, definitely. I simply took ideas and rules seen in other, more recent books that also repeat across more than one Codex. There is already established precedence for all of my suggestions.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Like I said before I doubt GW will use rules from a special interest group as this was a disaster when they did the BT codex, which was universally panned.

[Medjugorje]

https://www.change.org/p/vows-for-black-templars?signed=true

 

 

VOWS for Templars

[BitsHammer]

Petitions aren't likely to work. And again any rules I'm using will be to illustrate a point on how something could work. I'm not trying to write rules for GW to use, but to give examples on how something could work.

 

As for 6 point Assault Marines, the point of this is to hopefully help the studio bring them and other Astartes up to what they cost, not drop points down to where they actually and calling it "good 'nough".

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Make sure to send it literally an hour before CA is released bruh . Yer my hero !

[BitsHammer]

Make sure to send it literally an hour before CA is released bruh . Yer my hero !

I'm not pushing it back to December. And the sarcasm is noted, but honestly not helpful, so it gets a meh/10.

[Stealth_Hobo]

I've resigned myself to thinking that bigger changes like new rules and strats will only appear in a new codex or campaign book. It would be nice to be wrong!

In AOS the General's Handbook gave some armies new artifacts and abilities/special rules, so I think new stratagems and special rules in CA is not out of the question. Though, in 40k things are a bit different as most armies have been updated for 8th edition.

 

I'm pretty sure that new SM codex will drop when the new Primaris models arrive, but when that will happen is anyone's guess.

[Panzer]

Honestly I rather feel like every rules proposition even if it's just to illustrate how it could be better is making it less likely for GW to make it better just not to end up using something people have been suggesting.

It's probably also not exactly helpful to get like 5 different compilations of "how to fix space marines" from the B&C community alone which all are hugely different from each other. I don't even want to know what else they get send by random people and other forums.

[Captain Idaho]

I did once send in rules I worked on for race specific missions and some of the elements were used for a supplement. No acknowledgment of the rules but I noticed similarities.

 

So you gotta have faith. Like George Michael.

[Ishagu]

I just don't want to see GW loaded up with suggestions that won't have any tangible impact on the codex.

 

If they followed HALF of my suggestions the book will be better for sure. I don't care for a bunch of thematic ideas that have 0 impact but might add additional bloat.

 

The suggestions I listed above were based on experience with other recent books and already have a precedence.