"Fixing" the Space Marine Codex

[Ishagu]

But there are now multiple sources hinting at version 2 of the Marine Codex also. We could be looking at a new book dropping alongside additional model releases.

[Sete]

You know, I'm gonna get a few GK arms, add them to Primaris and use Custodes rules for it.

Lore wise a dude named crawll (ah) had successfully developed Primazoids but had them on ice for 10k and 1 year

[Xisor]

 

Seriously, there's over thirty different types of boltgun on the loose with its own profile.

 

Exagerating much?

• Boltgun
• Boltpistol
• Heavy bolter
• Stormbolter/Combi-bolter (same thing just differently named across imperial and chaos marines)
• Stalker pattern boltgun (Deathwatch only)
• Hurricane Bolter (basically just 6 Bolter that have to shoot at the same target)
• Special Issue boltgun
• Bolt rifle (P)
• Stalker bolt rifle (P)
• Bolt carbine/Auto bolt rilfe (exact same thing) (P)
• Assault bolter (P)
• Absolver bolt pistol (P)

And then the few special cases like hybrid weapons which don't really count like Auto Boltstorm gauntlets and the Custodes Bolter spears.

Nonsense. Count through Guard and Custodes and Deathwatch and Grey Knights and Ministorum (and whoever else I forget offhand) without exceptions ("just because") and you'll find 30+ entries.

 

Thoroughness isn't exaggeration.

 

Between Intercessors, Reivers, Primaris Chaplains, and Inceptors, you get a solid seven *new* bolt gun profiles. (Two of which are identical in end result.)

 

Having two Stalkers, plus the Stalker tank, just seems bizarre, with distinct effects!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I’m sure SM will get some love too.

[Blindhamster]

 

 

Seriously, there's over thirty different types of boltgun on the loose with its own profile.

Exagerating much?

• Boltgun
• Boltpistol
• Heavy bolter
• Stormbolter/Combi-bolter (same thing just differently named across imperial and chaos marines)
• Stalker pattern boltgun (Deathwatch only)
• Hurricane Bolter (basically just 6 Bolter that have to shoot at the same target)
• Special Issue boltgun
• Bolt rifle (P)
• Stalker bolt rifle (P)
• Bolt carbine/Auto bolt rilfe (exact same thing) (P)
• Assault bolter (P)
• Absolver bolt pistol (P)

And then the few special cases like hybrid weapons which don't really count like Auto Boltstorm gauntlets and the Custodes Bolter spears.

Nonsense. Count through Guard and Custodes and Deathwatch and Grey Knights and Ministorum (and whoever else I forget offhand) without exceptions ("just because") and you'll find 30+ entries.

 

Thoroughness isn't exaggeration.

 

Between Intercessors, Reivers, Primaris Chaplains, and Inceptors, you get a solid seven *new* bolt gun profiles. (Two of which are identical in end result.)

 

Having two Stalkers, plus the Stalker tank, just seems bizarre, with distinct effects!

 

 

Bolt Rifles should be different from Bolt Guns, they're distinctly shaped weapons.

 

The difference between stalker and auto was clearly to allow players to adjust their play style, i for one like it and would appreciate it staying how it is.

 

Absolver Pistol isn't actually a bolt pistol, its a solid shell weapon for putting people out of their misery, designed to punch through power armour.

 

where you get annoyed, I was pleased to see the different models get different rules.

 

the one thing i felt was odd was that auto bolt rifles and bolt carbines had the same rules.

[Medjugorje]

Did you guys hear that Cruddace and the design team were at Nova?

 

They've already identified problems with the game and the cheaper infantry.

 

Expect the FAQ, and then Chapter Approved to impact the game significantly.

 

In Warhammer Fest Europe the GW Designer told us that we can expect some new things for Space Marines.

I interpreted that in some things like new stratagems and maybe a change in chapter tactics.

 

In fact they said that mass armies will be nerfed.

[Medjugorje]

I’m sure SM will get some love too.

 

like I said, the GW designer told us about a few codex are weak now. He named C:CSM C:GL and C:SM,.. but no word about Necrons, Mechanicus...

[Panzer]

 

 

Seriously, there's over thirty different types of boltgun on the loose with its own profile.

Exagerating much?

• Boltgun
• Boltpistol
• Heavy bolter
• Stormbolter/Combi-bolter (same thing just differently named across imperial and chaos marines)
• Stalker pattern boltgun (Deathwatch only)
• Hurricane Bolter (basically just 6 Bolter that have to shoot at the same target)
• Special Issue boltgun
• Bolt rifle (P)
• Stalker bolt rifle (P)
• Bolt carbine/Auto bolt rilfe (exact same thing) (P)
• Assault bolter (P)
• Absolver bolt pistol (P)

And then the few special cases like hybrid weapons which don't really count like Auto Boltstorm gauntlets and the Custodes Bolter spears.

Nonsense. Count through Guard and Custodes and Deathwatch and Grey Knights and Ministorum (and whoever else I forget offhand) without exceptions ("just because") and you'll find 30+ entries.

 

Thoroughness isn't exaggeration.

 

Between Intercessors, Reivers, Primaris Chaplains, and Inceptors, you get a solid seven *new* bolt gun profiles. (Two of which are identical in end result.)

 

Having two Stalkers, plus the Stalker tank, just seems bizarre, with distinct effects!

 

 

Seriously, what are you even talking about? Neither Astra Militarum, Custodes, Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have any additional bolter variant. They all use one of the ones I've listed. Please check your facts, especially after getting called out on it, or what you post looks just like pointless ranting for the sake of ranting.

 

To the Primaris, yes you do because they are supposed to have better Bolter variants. It's INTENDED. That has nothing to do with bloat. As I mentioned myself only the Auto bolt rifle/Carbine situation is dumb.

 

About the Stalker ... did you just seriously compare the Stalker tank to the Stalker bolt rifles? Like what? Just because they have similar names it doesn't mean you can just lump them together.  I mean it might not have been overly creative to give the tank the same name but not even people who just started out with 40k would ever confuse a bolter with a friggin tank.

[Ishagu]

 

 

Did you guys hear that Cruddace and the design team were at Nova?

 

They've already identified problems with the game and the cheaper infantry.

 

Expect the FAQ, and then Chapter Approved to impact the game significantly.

In Warhammer Fest Europe the GW Designer told us that we can expect some new things for Space Marines.

I interpreted that in some things like new stratagems and maybe a change in chapter tactics.

 

In fact they said that mass armies will be nerfed.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. We won't have too long to wait now

[BitsHammer]

 

Did you guys hear that Cruddace and the design team were at Nova?

 

They've already identified problems with the game and the cheaper infantry.

 

Expect the FAQ, and then Chapter Approved to impact the game significantly.

 

In Warhammer Fest Europe the GW Designer told us that we can expect some new things for Space Marines.

I interpreted that in some things like new stratagems and maybe a change in chapter tactics.

 

In fact they said that mass armies will be nerfed.

 

Since it's coming out of a dev's mouth then I'll abstain from sending this off too early. I'm still going to compile things but who knows, maybe they'll fix everything and it'll be moot? I doubt it, but it'll be interesting to see.

[Medjugorje]

 

 

Did you guys hear that Cruddace and the design team were at Nova?

 

They've already identified problems with the game and the cheaper infantry.

 

Expect the FAQ, and then Chapter Approved to impact the game significantly.

In Warhammer Fest Europe the GW Designer told us that we can expect some new things for Space Marines.

I interpreted that in some things like new stratagems and maybe a change in chapter tactics.

 

In fact they said that mass armies will be nerfed.

Interesting! Thanks for sharing. We won't have too long to wait now

[Captain Idaho]

Let's not count our chickens though. A Sisters beta Codex and loads of Marines updates that save the Codex in the same release? If that happens I'll never doubt GW again!

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

* HEAVY BREATHING

[Ishagu]

More than one play-tester has now stated that CA will be good for Marines AND Grey Knights.

 

Exciting times for sure. If we get a decent point adjustment allowing us to take bigger armies I'll be very happy, never mind any additional rules!

[Xisor]

Seriously, what are you even talking about? Neither Astra Militarum, Custodes, Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have any additional bolter variant. They all use one of the ones I've listed. Please check your facts...

By your command.

 

Starting with Codex: Adeptus Astartes - Space Marines and checking the facts as methodically as I'm able, at short notice:

 

01- Absolvor BOLT pistol

02- Assault bolter

03- Auto bolt rifle

04- Auto boltstorm gauntlets

05- Bolt carbine

06- Bolt pistol

07- Bolt rifle

08- Boltgun

09- Boltstorm gauntlet

10- Combi-bolter

11- Combi-flamer

12- Combi-grav

13- Combi-melta

14- Heavy bolter

15- Heavy bolt pistol

16- Hurricane bolter

17- Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

18- Master-crafted boltgun

19- Master crafted stalker bolt rifle

20- Special issue boltgun

21- Stalker bolt rifle

22- Storm bolter

23- Twin boltgun

24- Twin heavy bolter

25- Hand of Dominion (debatable, looks like a bolt weapon, quacks like a bolt weapon...)

26- Gauntlets of Ultramar

27- Dorn's Arrow

28- The Primarch's Wrath

29- The Spartean

30- Quietus

31- Vulcan mega-bolter (C: Astra Militarum)

32- Guardian Spear (C: Deathwatch)

33- Hellfire Extremis (C: Deathwatch)

34- Infernus heavy bolter (C: Deathwatch)

35- Condemnor boltgun (I: Imperium 2)

36- Executioner pistol (I: Imperium 2)

37- Master-crafted condemner boltgun (I: Imperium 2)

38- Blood Song (I: Imperium 1, I don't have C:BA, so I don't know if it was preserved.)

39- Angelus Boltgun (I: Imperium 1, again as per #39...)

40- Lion's Wrath (I: Imperium 1, again...)

41- The Deliverer (I: Imperium 1, again...)

42- Avenger mega bolter (I: Imperium 1, again...)

43- The Fury of Demios (C:GK)

44- Sentinel blade (C: Adeptus Custodes)

45- The Gatekeeper (C: Adeptus Custodes)

46- The Veiled Blade (C: Adeptus Custodes)

47- Castellan axe (C: Adeptus Custodes)

48- Watcher's axe (C: Adeptus Custodes)

 

And, to be fair, I may have missed a few.

 

Whilst Ishagu is right: I don't need to remember them, it would massively help the game speed up and make me feel like less of an idiot in front of my opponents without having to check the book so bloody often.

 

I'm confident I'm not alone on that front.

 

It's INTENDED. That has nothing to do with bloat.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

About the Stalker ... <snip> I mean it might not have been overly creative to give the tank the same name

So you do understand. And not just one tank and a gun. One tank and two guns.

 

---

 

Many patterns of boltgun are available, they can (and indeed: are) coalesced into a single profile where expedience and simplicity is given higher priority massively multiplying profiles. Consider: Special Issue Boltguns.

 

 

especially after getting called out on it, or what you post looks just like pointless ranting for the sake of ranting.

Please, be as dismissive as you feel you must be, but I did make the list, and I have checked it twice. I recognise I was wrong in claiming to see 'over thirty'.

 

In fairness to myself 'almost fifty' is indeed more than thirty.

 

It may not be a universal opinion, and I'll absolutely concede that a lot of these are edge cases (relics), but it nevertheless remains an improbable array of bolt weaponry.

 

And that is glossing over the distinct forms of boltguns - are IG boltguns really as powerful as Astartes? (Etc.)

 

From my perspective, it's an unhappy half-way house. And it really slows me down in thinking about the game.

 

As I said earlier: I am confident I'm not alone in that.

 

And hooray, of course, for everyone that it doesn't slow down - that's lovely! - but it's a massive hassle for the likes of me.

[Ishagu]

I've got no issue with all the bolt weapon variety.

[Lemondish]

Thanks for the list Xisor, it's nice to visualize.

 

Though I will stand firmly on the side of it not being an issue one bit.

[Panzer]

 

Seriously, what are you even talking about? Neither Astra Militarum, Custodes, Grey Knights nor Deathwatch have any additional bolter variant. They all use one of the ones I've listed. Please check your facts...

By your command.

 

Starting with Codex: Adeptus Astartes - Space Marines and checking the facts as methodically as I'm able, at short notice:

 

01- Absolvor BOLT pistol

02- Assault bolter

03- Auto bolt rifle

04- Auto boltstorm gauntlets

05- Bolt carbine

06- Bolt pistol

07- Bolt rifle

08- Boltgun

09- Boltstorm gauntlet

10- Combi-bolter

11- Combi-flamer

12- Combi-grav

13- Combi-melta

14- Heavy bolter

15- Heavy bolt pistol

16- Hurricane bolter

17- Master-crafted auto bolt rifle

18- Master-crafted boltgun

19- Master crafted stalker bolt rifle

20- Special issue boltgun

21- Stalker bolt rifle

22- Storm bolter

23- Twin boltgun

24- Twin heavy bolter

25- Hand of Dominion (debatable, looks like a bolt weapon, quacks like a bolt weapon...)

26- Gauntlets of Ultramar

27- Dorn's Arrow

28- The Primarch's Wrath

29- The Spartean

30- Quietus

31- Vulcan mega-bolter (C: Astra Militarum)

32- Guardian Spear (C: Deathwatch)

33- Hellfire Extremis (C: Deathwatch)

34- Infernus heavy bolter (C: Deathwatch)

35- Condemnor boltgun (I: Imperium 2)

36- Executioner pistol (I: Imperium 2)

37- Master-crafted condemner boltgun (I: Imperium 2)

38- Blood Song (I: Imperium 1, I don't have C:BA, so I don't know if it was preserved.)

39- Angelus Boltgun (I: Imperium 1, again as per #39...)

40- Lion's Wrath (I: Imperium 1, again...)

41- The Deliverer (I: Imperium 1, again...)

42- Avenger mega bolter (I: Imperium 1, again...)

43- The Fury of Demios (C:GK)

44- Sentinel blade (C: Adeptus Custodes)

45- The Gatekeeper (C: Adeptus Custodes)

46- The Veiled Blade (C: Adeptus Custodes)

47- Castellan axe (C: Adeptus Custodes)

48- Watcher's axe (C: Adeptus Custodes)

 

And, to be fair, I may have missed a few.

 

Whilst Ishagu is right: I don't need to remember them, it would massively help the game speed up and make me feel like less of an idiot in front of my opponents without having to check the book so bloody often.

 

I'm confident I'm not alone on that front.

 

 

---

 

Many patterns of boltgun are available, they can (and indeed: are) coalesced into a single profile where expedience and simplicity is given higher priority massively multiplying profiles. Consider: Special Issue Boltguns.

 

 

especially after getting called out on it, or what you post looks just like pointless ranting for the sake of ranting.

Please, be as dismissive as you feel you must be, but I did make the list, and I have checked it twice. I recognise I was wrong in claiming to see 'over thirty'.

 

In fairness to myself 'almost fifty' is indeed more than thirty.

 

It may not be a universal opinion, and I'll absolutely concede that a lot of these are edge cases (relics), but it nevertheless remains an improbable array of bolt weaponry.

 

And that is glossing over the distinct forms of boltguns - are IG boltguns really as powerful as Astartes? (Etc.)

 

From my perspective, it's an unhappy half-way house. And it really slows me down in thinking about the game.

 

As I said earlier: I am confident I'm not alone in that.

 

And hooray, of course, for everyone that it doesn't slow down - that's lovely! - but it's a massive hassle for the likes of me.

 

 

So let me get this straight, you simply counted every single weapon towards it that either has bolt in its name, description, bit or has part of the profile similar to any of the bolter profiles. Well d'uh of course your list would be a lot longer. It's also not exactly a helpful list unless you just want to rant about something but lets break it down:

• weapons that aren't exactly bolter aside from fluff due their dual profile nature (shooting) or non standard bolter portion (melee). If you'd part those you'd either need an additional special rule on the datasheet which shifts the bloat you complain about just from the weapon to the unit or you'd need an additional weapon entry in the codex which would basically be the exact same thing as the current situation except that you'd have two different weapons listed on the datasheet instead of just one. The weapons in question would be the following: Auto boltstorm gauntlets, Boltstorm gauntlet, combi-flamer, combi-grav, combi-melta, guardian spear, Infernus Heavy bolter, Sentinel blade, Castellan axe, Watcher's Axe. A wopping 10 items from your list.
• weapons that are are supposed to be special so it would make no sense to give them the same name and profile as other weapons. Those would be relics (special characters included) and master crafted weapons = Master-crafted auto bolt rifle, Master-crafted boltgun, Master-crafted stalker bolt rifle, Hand of Dominion, Gauntlets of Ultramar, Dorn's Arrow, The Primarch's Wrath, The Spartean, Quietus, Hellfire Extremis, Master-crafted condemner boltgun, Blood Song, Lion's Wrath, The Deliverer, The Fury of Deimos. Another 15 items from your list that don't belong on that list.
• Then we have Index weapons (according to your list) which shouldn't count at all since we aren't supposed to use Index rules anymore anyway and the rule that allows us to still use them could go away any time (if you think it'll stay like that forever then you're fooling yourself). Those would be = Condemnor boltgun, Executioner pistol, Master-crafted condemnor boltgun. Basically the SoB special bolter. We will see what they'll get with their Codex but chances are that they either use the same bolter as any other and the units who use special bolter have proper justification for that like Sternguard&Co.

So I'll take those away from your list and it's down to 20 valid bolter variant entries to look at and discuss about. Some of those I can give you (and already did). Those are Stormbolter&Combi-bolter, Auto bolt rifle&Bolt carbine and Hurricane Bolter (just 6 Bolter).

All the other bolter variants are okay to be there because they are supposed to be different from eachother. You can't just merge profiles that are supposed to differ just for the sake of making them easier to remember. That's exactly the kind of dumbification people don't want. It helps nobody and just makes things less interesting. Next thing we see is somebody complaining different factions have different basic guns and eventually all have just regular Boltguns "because it's easier to remember".  

40k IS a more or less complex game with lots of stuff to remember. It's not chess with just 6 different units in the whole game. If you can't handle that then warhammer maybe isn't for you.

 

(Just to pour a little bit salt into the wound, there are a bunch of weapons in xenos codexes with a boltgun-similar profile too and they aren't even named anything with bolt)

 

 

 

It's INTENDED. That has nothing to do with bloat.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

 

About the Stalker ... <snip> I mean it might not have been overly creative to give the tank the same name

So you do understand. And not just one tank and a gun. One tank and two guns.

 

 

Alright let me phrase it better. It has nothing to do with unnecessary bloat.

 

Aye a tank and TWO guns makes it so much better an argument. 

 

 

 

Please don't misunderstand, I understand your concern that it might be a bit overwhelming, but I do think you're exagerating this a lot.

[Xisor]

Warhammer isn't for me, I see.

[Ishagu]

Why are you concerned about bolt weapons across multiple books?

 

Unit datasheets now have their weapons and options listed, including the rules. I don't see an issue in all honesty.

[Xisor]

Why are you concerned about bolt weapons across multiple books?

Unit datasheets now have their weapons and options listed, including the rules. I don't see an issue in all honesty.

Whilst Ishagu is right: I don't need to remember them, it would massively help the game speed up and make me feel like less of an idiot in front of my opponents without having to check the book so bloody often.

 

I'm confident I'm not alone on that front.

 

<snip>

 

And it really slows me down in thinking about the game.

 

As I said earlier: I am confident I'm not alone in that.

 

And hooray, of course, for everyone that it doesn't slow down - that's lovely! - but it's a massive hassle for the likes of me.

Fewer barely significant variations, fewer things to remember. Big variations? Hooray. Small variations? A nuisance.

 

E.g. sure, the difference between a bolt pistol a vulcan mega-bolter. But bolt pistol and heavy bolt pistol?

 

And sure, if its on the datasheet that's sort of useful. But not all weapons are on all datasheets, and that still involves looking up a ton of stuff.

 

(I'm not a fan of Ad Mech Canticles for the same reasons. Weird complications masquerading as flavour.)

 

Boltgun and bolt rifle? Stalker pattern boltgun and Stalker bolt rifle?

 

Give them distinct names and distinct profiles, for pity's sakes.

 

But don't do similar names and subtle differences, that's a hassle. Even for folk with excellent working memory!

 

---

 

And whilst I'm thinking about it? More options mean more things to balance. (Or rather: more choices that are very likely to be suboptimal. Is presenting suboptimal choices really useful? Is it desirable? I'm not convinced it is.)

 

I'm probably not the first to remark that Occam's transonic razor may have a use here.

[BluejayJunior]

I get that bolt rilfe and boltgun are very similar names. But they do have distinct profiles. And it's not like they can be used by the same units. Are you really using such a large variety of bolt weaponry at one time? And unless it's on obscure choice, bolt weapons are almost always on the unit's datasheet. And even if you can't remember them, looking up rules isn't necessarily bad. Just put tabs on the book for the units you're using.

This seems like an odd battle to have. It's not even close to being one of the major problem with the space marine books. 

[Prot]

Guys please let’s not grind this into a bolt weapon debate any further. We are all on the same side. We want our favourite codexes to become competitive. We’re all crossing our fingers. We’re all hoping they’ve read the open letters to GW we’ve posted all over the forum whether it be about Grey Knights or CSM...

 

On another note I just heard Reece of Frontline Gaming give out the tiniest of tidbit... saying the FAQ was entirely 100% positive and that marine players (including Grey Knights) should be happy. (A slight indication of a positive change towards Terminators as well).

 

He did not go into detail however he added the commonly shared perception that the problem has historically been “ marines do not currently reflect their background in the lore”.

 

I don’t know if that means he thinks it’s fixed or not.... hopefully not long now!

[redmapa]

Reece is always positive about the FAQs and their effects they may or may not have in certain armies, I still remember when the first FAQ dropped and he told I should be thankful for the Deep Strike restrictions and how Black Templars are now one of the best/most benefited chapters in the SM codex AND THEN  a month or two later when they published the Chapter Tactic review from Nick Nanavati's site he then changed his tune to "Yeah BT dont have much beside Rhino Rush, they seem to struggle against other armies". So I personally would not take anything Reece says as a real judgement of the situation, I have nothing against him but he is a fanboy and eternally positive about some stuff.

[SanguinaryGuardsman]

Reece is always positive about the FAQs and their effects they may or may not have in certain armies, I still remember when the first FAQ dropped and he told I should be thankful for the Deep Strike restrictions and how Black Templars are now one of the best/most benefited chapters in the SM codex AND THEN  a month or two later when they published the Chapter Tactic review from Nick Nanavati's site he then changed his tune to "Yeah BT dont have much beside Rhino Rush, they seem to struggle against other armies". So I personally would not take anything Reece says as a real judgement of the situation, I have nothing against him but he is a fanboy and eternally positive about some stuff.

Doesn't he also run a business that sells marines?  If so, I would be very skeptical about anything he says about marines being good every time GW adjusts the rules.