Vs knights

[sn33r]

Has anyone came up with a way to face knights yet?. I've got a game soon with a nasty knight list..

[sn33r]

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Mechanicus) [] ++

 

+ Uncategorised +

 

Forge World: Stygies VIII

 

+ HQ +

 

Tech-Priest Dominus ]: Autocaduceus of Arkhan Land, Omnissian Axe, Phosphor Serpenta, Volkite Blaster, Warlord

 

+ Heavy Support +

 

Onager Dunecrawler []: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array

 

Onager Dunecrawler []: Broad Spectrum Data-tether

. Neutron laser & cognis heavy Stubber: Cognis heavy stubber, Neutron Laser

 

Onager Dunecrawler []: Broad Spectrum Data-tether, Icarus Array

 

++ Super-Heavy Detachment +3CP (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [] ++

 

+ No Force Org Slot +

 

Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus

 

+ Lord of War +

 

Armiger Warglaives []

. Armiger Warglaive: Heavy stubber

 

Cerastus Knight-Acheron []: Acheron flame cannon, Reaper chainfist, Twin heavy bolter

 

Knight Crusader []: Character, Heavy stubber, Thermal cannon

. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger gatling cannon, Heavy flamer

 

Knight Gallant []: Heavy stubber, Reaper chainsword, Thunderstrike gauntlet

[Jackalwolf]

Which toys you got available to choose from?

[sn33r]

Most stuff.. if not I can proxy or borrow

[GrFlur]

As far as I know by reading the wolves forum (I don't read anywhare else due lack of time) the best way to go for knights is close combat, if you search a bit you will find a Topic or two talking about it

[Guest]

Have a guy in my group that runs IK+securatii+that tunnel transport, it's freaking impossible to take down that IK. You can't charge it because securatii surround it. You move up and he pops that transport behind you or your sides.

[sn33r]

Hhhmmm.. wulfen and lots of them then

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

Wulfen do good. Bjorn does good. Shield dreads might still work but I'm not sure with the updates. And due to the high volume of armor I can't recommend a stormfang with multimelta more highly. That plane is a beast and is like 50 points cheaper now.

[M.Redbeard]

Two Stormwolves filled qith Wulfen and a Wolf Priest. 6 TH/SS Wulfen do 26 in average wrecking them. You can also de Honour the Chapter them to finish the job if necessary. Use a two Wulfen Lords (TH/SS, Wulfen Stone and Saga of the Wolfkin, probably better one on each) for another Knight. And bring the Armour of Russ for the Gallant and Acehron to make them fight last. Use seeking a Saga Against them. Mentor's guidance too if you have a Wolf Priest near you. If he kill either one use Only in Death Does Duty End to hit him again. Bjorn ans a Chaplain Dread might be good force mutpliers too againsr them. Use TWC to better lock them in combat too. A screen is useful to keep his charging knight from the characters and getting an edge wirh Heroic Intervention. You can also use a unit of 10 Hellblaster, against the Dunecrawlers. With Keen Sense you can ignore the Stygies penalty and you get Bjorn or a WL near to reroll 1s you make 13 wounds average. I think those could help. Amd use RP as much as possible. He can't stop psychic with that configuration, so if you need cover use Cloaked by the Storm. And Ven Dread although not as good as they used to be can still protect characters amd hit pretty strong when they get there

[sn33r]

Ah I sold one of my fliers as I wasn't taking one let alone two...lol looks l need another one.

[TiguriusX]

When you fight knights they have a stratagem to improve the invulnerable save by 1

 

If you fire in a specific order you can make him use it then swap targets to increase your odds

 

For example use bjorn and his 2 lascannons then swap targets with your long fangs to help punch through

 

However if you look at his list it is all elite stuff.

 

if you have infantry he cant get you in ruins. you can try and focus on objectives if the board and mission are favorable

[M.Redbeard]

Ah I sold one of my fliers as I wasn't taking one let alone two...lol looks l need another one.

It happens, Stormwolves are pretry good though. I'd recommend making a threat priority list. I am not that familiar with FW Knights bur checking a bit that Acheron he might be the biggest threat. A 40" average threat range flamer is very brutal.and using Raven with them is pretty shrewed since he can advance amd fire it. You will need a way to hide the Wulfen. Atrangely I am thinking that a Land Raider might not be an aweful in this case. Without gear only the neutron laser would wound it on anything better than a 4+ in shooting. And you can use it to eat the overwatch of the flamer. Wulfen can hide on it amd since his knights might be very aggressive even if he goes first you might disembark, advance and charge giving between everything the Wulfens a pretty effective 20" charge range.

 

A strange thing I noticed though. Crusaders can't have two of the same weapon (only filthy Heretics can do that) so preare for either a Thermal Cannon or a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon.

[Yoyo ninja]

However if you look at his list it is all elite stuff.

 

if you have infantry he cant get you in ruins. you can try and focus on objectives if the board and mission are favorable

There is a strat in the Knights dex that alowes you to attack units on upper levels of ruins. So hiding off the floor doesn't save you from Knights charging you I'm afraid.

[TiguriusX]

 

However if you look at his list it is all elite stuff.

 

if you have infantry he cant get you in ruins. you can try and focus on objectives if the board and mission are favorable

There is a strat in the Knights dex that alowes you to attack units on upper levels of ruins. So hiding off the floor doesn't save you from Knights charging you I'm afraid.

the stratagem doesn't work on ground floor units (first tournament using my gallant i learned this the hard way)

 

if you can enter a building and stay on the ground floor and more than 1" from the wall you can avoid the knight

 

*let me clarify i play ITC rules so terrain may play differently where you are and change this

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

However if you look at his list it is all elite stuff.

 

if you have infantry he cant get you in ruins. you can try and focus on objectives if the board and mission are favorable

There is a strat in the Knights dex that alowes you to attack units on upper levels of ruins. So hiding off the floor doesn't save you from Knights charging you I'm afraid.

the stratagem doesn't work on ground floor units (first tournament using my gallant i learned this the hard way)

 

if you can enter a building and stay on the ground floor and more than 1" from the wall you can avoid the knight

 

*let me clarify i play ITC rules so terrain may play differently where you are and change this

Devastating Reach. The stratagem itself clarifies that there must be no models on the ground floor. So you could be sneakier if you want, leaving a single model on the ground floor as far as possible and the rest on the second floor. A bit on the going very hard to win court for my tastes, but perfectly valid strategy.

[PeteySödes]

A famous poet once said, “it doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning’s winning”.

 

Wise words from a great man.

[TiguriusX]

A famous poet once said, “it doesn’t matter if you win by an inch or a mile, winning’s winning”.

 

Wise words from a great man.

lol well now i am curious if you will grace us with a wolf lord toretto at some point and show off those green stuff and conversion skills

[PeteySödes]

Haha speed freeks!

[Kasper_Hawser]

Gah, yet another ridiculous Knight matchup. Unless your opponent is a genuine Admech player and fan, I wouldn't play him.

 

As mentioned by everyone, close combat is the SUREST way to kill Knights. Range is risky due to their invuln saves, at worst 5++, at best 3++ on Warlord with Relic and strategem.

 

If you go Long Fang heavy though, a crazy idea I did back before the codex hit was to outflank the Long Fangs in order to get behind the Onagers hiding in ruins (I fought a pure admech list some time ago, I lost but only by a hair's breath.) I had minus one to hit on arriving from reserves, but it at least minimised the Onager's lasers hits. But now with Keen Senses, we can ignore the penalty to hit on movement for a CP, so make it more chances of hitting and wounding with Wolf's Eye CP as well. Expensive but potentially worth it to remove at least one backline firepower, either the Crusader or the Onagers. 

 

In the end, what you bring is less important than your target priority. Who will be the Knight with the improved invulns? If he DOESN'T make a Knight his warlord with the +1 invuln, I think you'll have a slightly easier time as the best invuln he'll have is 4++. Not sure what the FW Knight stats and invulns are though.

 

Hide your guys on the Ground floor for first turn, then pop out of hiding in turn 2 once his Knights/army start moving forward. In the end play to game objectives. One thing about Knight players I noticed, they tend to focus on tabling you rather than winning the game. Use this to your advantage and then laugh at his face later as his fancy Knights can't maneuver around the ruins to get to your last guy hiding on the ground floor with the objective. (assuming u use ITC rules)

[Vash113]

As someone who plays knights I have to agree with the general sentiment that the best way to get rid of Knights is close combat. It can be done with firepower as well but some good invuln rolls can really make taking out a knight at range difficult. Ion Bulwark plus Rotate Ion Shields can give a knight a 3+ invuln at range. So if you are going to take on knights with guns I think the most effective thing is to walk a fine line between focusing fire on one target and yet forcing your opponent to use rotate ion shields on a knight that is not your primary target. Throw a few lascannon shots at one knight and make your opponent use the strategem and then throw the rest of your firepower at another knight with a worse invulnerable save and try to target and completely destroy one knight a turn. A knight reduced to one wound can still (with the help of a 1cp strat) fight at full effectiveness and even without that is still hitting on 5's, and that's if it isn't using flamers that auto hit.

So for wolves I think good options are Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields, Wulfen with TH+SS or great frost axes, axe and shield Ven Dreads, Bjorn and so forth. Otherwise as many lascannons, demolisher cannons and melta weapons as you can get. Knights can dish out a lot of punishment but not against a lot of targets, they have few shots and few weapons and few models, so every knight killed is a significant blow to your opponent and a knight player has to be very careful about target selection to be truly effective.

An alternative is to simply play objective missions and pack in the troops. Put enough bodies on the table and Knights not only can't kill them all but they can't take or hold objectives from you either. Knights have few real options for ob sec and will still be beat by 11 guardsmen. Throw down a hundred Blood Claws and Grey Hunters, stick them in cover with a few characters with Thunder Hammers around for good measure and Knights will have real issues even if you kill none of them you'll still probably win, and hiding on upper floors helps as well, even with the strat Knights can't hurt troops on third floors and up. Cherry pick the terrain for larger, multi-storied ruins and stick some objectives and troops up there and knights can't really do much.

[Guest]

How about a Leviathan with grav flux?

[Karhedron]

How about a Leviathan with grav flux?

 

The 5 fixed damage is nice but it is only D3 shots.  Average damage output will be 10 shots, 6.67 hits, 4.44 wounds and only 3 wounds getting passed the saves. In practice this likely means 5 damage assuming your opponent fails his 5++ save but it is swingy and unreliable. Also the range is only 18" meaning that your slow Leviathan has to trudge close to the Knight and then hope it does not get blown away or charged.

 

If you want to go FW, the Sicaran Venator is a bit more promising. It is fast, fairly tough and mounts guns that are roughly equivalent to 5 lascannons. The big deal though is that any target wounded by the Neutron laser suffers a -1 to Hit penalty in its next shooting phase. If you are shooting at a Crusader or Castellan, that is a LOT of shooting you will be nerfing.

 

From the regular Codex, Tempest's Wrath is great against Knights as a successful cast nerfs a lot of points and Knights rarely bring much in the way of psychic defenses.

 

Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields in close combat are probably your best option and we have several viable candidates in our codex. For my money, TWC are the best option as they are not infantry. This means that Knights cannot move over them in the movement phase and potentially means you can pin a Knight in close combat. This is a big deal as most Knights need to be shooting every turn as well as fighting in CC so any opportunity to tarpit one is a big bonus.

 

Also remember that Knights are a CP-hungry army. The list above only has 7 CPs and they won't last long for rotating Ion Shields or using the CC stratagems to hit you in ruins. Once Knights burn through their CPs, they lose a lot of the tricks that make them so nasty.

[Vash113]

 

The list above only has 7 CPs

After a quick look at that list it should be getting 10 CP. An Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment was FAQ'd to now give 3CP if it has at least one big Knight, Questoris, Dominus, Cerastus or Acastus, and 6CP if it has 3 or more. Since the detachment includes a Cerastus and two Questoris Knights it should be netting 6CPs, added to the 1 for the Mechanicus patrol and the 3 each player gets standard that comes to 10.

[TiguriusX]

 

 

The list above only has 7 CPs

After a quick look at that list it should be getting 10 CP. An Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment was FAQ'd to now give 3CP if it has at least one big Knight, Questoris, Dominus, Cerastus or Acastus, and 6CP if it has 3 or more. Since the detachment includes a Cerastus and two Questoris Knights it should be netting 6CPs, added to the 1 for the Mechanicus patrol and the 3 each player gets standard that comes to 10.

 

 

Patrol is 0 CPs

[Vash113]

 

 

 

The list above only has 7 CPs

After a quick look at that list it should be getting 10 CP. An Imperial Knight Super-Heavy Detachment was FAQ'd to now give 3CP if it has at least one big Knight, Questoris, Dominus, Cerastus or Acastus, and 6CP if it has 3 or more. Since the detachment includes a Cerastus and two Questoris Knights it should be netting 6CPs, added to the 1 for the Mechanicus patrol and the 3 each player gets standard that comes to 10.

 

 

Patrol is 0 CPs

 

 

I misspoke (misstyped?), the list is a Spearhead detachment, not a Patrol, hence the +1 CP. So the final result should still be 10.