A FAQ to get marines back into army lists would be nice

[sunspear]

I have wanted to start a heretic astartes army for a while now but I can’t get past the fact that they only seem viable with cultists. While I think cultists definitely have a spot in the army I would just like to be able to field more marines.

[Halandaar]

So field some. 

[Vykes]

Not just some, like, lots... lots of power armour is fun.  A lot of the time that 'viable' word gets tossed around along with 'efficient' and 'optimized' and really that's kinda like saying there's only one way to bake cookies.  Bunch of tasty bits out there, go try something new (just leave out the nurgly bits, they're gross).  

 

Cultists have some place, I just find their place is a single 10-strong unit that backs up my platoons of 20-strong power armoured old-marines.  After all, having a 20-strong power armoured platoon going a shuttle run while everything else advances to grind up the alien and Imperialist scum is counter productive.  And it looks silly.  The mortals are there to fetch and carry. 

[Wassa]

There are plenty of combinations, you don't always have to go with the most efficient optimized list.

 

Have casual games with others doing the same and it will be a lot more fun.

[Pearson73]

I find Noise Marines do a very satisfactory job, lots of cover ignoring shots there.

[Slan Drakkos]

I find Noise Marines do a very satisfactory job, lots of cover ignoring shots there.

shots that ignore cover, advancing and shooting, extra shots, surprisingly solid in close combat.....yeah NM are very good.

[Mekhitar]

I love running large numbers of power armored bodies. My classic league night lists run 30+, between havocs, noise marines, and either 5 man with a heavy weapon objective holders or even base csm with double plasma party bussing in a rhino.

 

Am I going to take that to a tournament? No way. But mostly I don’t play tournament style games, and among friends, they still do great work.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

You know what Troop CSM squads are good for? Taking two heavy weapons in a 10 man squad. They're not priority targets like Havocs because after all they're "just" CSMs, but they're OBSEC and ten models takes up plenty of room on the tabletop to shut down deep strike LZs and if they do draw fire, that's right models to chew through before they get to lascannons or missile launchers that are causing so many problems.

[Bloody Legionnaire]

lots CSM troops are absolutely fine outside of the ultra competitive environment. I'm sure there's even a way to build a pretty competitive list using CSM but nobody wants to take the risk of trying something different than the same old, played out, massed cultist lists. 

[sunspear]

It’s good to hear, I haven’t played a CSM army in 8th yet. I have wanted to build one but all I ever read is how bad marines are and everyone using cultists. I don’t play ultra competitive games so maybe I would be fine.

[Captain Idaho]

I would like to see Chaos Marines get the same sort of Amendments discussed elsewhere for their loyalist counter parts.

 

I didn't talk much about points drops except for the stuff that absolutely needed it but I did champion multitudes of new Stratagems that boost Tactical squads which I believe would be beneficial to you guys.

 

After all, something like "merciless cull" where a Chaos Marines squad or Chaos Terminator squad (along with the same boosts I spoke of for loyalist Terminators) get +1 to their Bolt weapons number of shots and if the target unit has an armour save worse than a 3+ they get +1 to wound as well.

 

Pure example and off the top of my head but you get the point.

 

#makeChaosMarinesgreatagain

[Ketzer]

Well... the easiest way to boost standard Chaos Marines would be: give them a strategem that simulates the "Fury of the Legion" from the good old 30k universe.

One could say, that the already have something like that: Veretans of the long war. Yes, but that's not the same, because Votlw is for every unit. I'd love to see that for Standard CSM only.

Place 20 CSM on a objective and put your best troll face on, when you play Fury of the Legion against anything that is in range.

 

That being said, though Chaos Space Marines are not the be-all-end-all unit, they still are valid. I never leave home without some. They aren't ultra competitive but that also counts for their loyalist counterparts.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

No thanks. I already tear through CPs with my CSM super quickly already, I don't need another drain on the battery. Give me something built into their point cost.

[Tyriks]

I've enjoyed playing Thousand Sons because I can drop 30+ marines on the table and still do fine. Now, I'm rarely playing Eldar these days but against other armies they hold up just fine.

[Captain Idaho]

No thanks. I already tear through CPs with my CSM super quickly already, I don't need another drain on the battery. Give me something built into their point cost.

True my ideas require a change in the CP rules for some players though I still contend that Strategums and a new points adjustment might work out for us.

[Redtoof]

I already use power armour guys in my armies. A nice points drop (or increase for basically all other troops) would be appreciated though.

 

There are lots of ideas out there to ‘fix’ tac equivalents, but I’d be happy for them to just be costed around 10-11 points. 10 would be nice to make maths easier :p

[ChazSexington]

The bog standard CSM is pretty useless, and no amount of saying "play fluffy, man! Play what you want!" will make them any better. It does not feel good picking a unit that hamstrings your army. I play them, and I always sit there going "Cultists would be much better."

 

However, I wouldn't expect them in the FAQ. Point adjustment takes place in Chapter Approved. 

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

You know what Troop CSM squads are good for? Taking two heavy weapons in a 10 man squad. They're not priority targets like Havocs because after all they're "just" CSMs, but they're OBSEC and ten models takes up plenty of room on the tabletop to shut down deep strike LZs and if they do draw fire, that's right models to chew through before they get to lascannons or missile launchers that are causing so many problems.

Plus, if you play Black Legion, 1 squad can reroll all misses with Let the Galaxy Burn and they have +1 Ld. Take an Icon of Vengeance and they're functionally LD 10. That squad, or even multiples of it, tends to appear in BL lists either wrapped around Abaddon or deployed far out to rely on the Stratagem.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The bog standard CSM is pretty useless, and no amount of saying "play fluffy, man! Play what you want!" will make them any better. It does not feel good picking a unit that hamstrings your army. I play them, and I always sit there going "Cultists would be much better."

 

However, I wouldn't expect them in the FAQ. Point adjustment takes place in Chapter Approved. 

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

[ChazSexington]

 

The bog standard CSM is pretty useless, and no amount of saying "play fluffy, man! Play what you want!" will make them any better. It does not feel good picking a unit that hamstrings your army. I play them, and I always sit there going "Cultists would be much better."

 

However, I wouldn't expect them in the FAQ. Point adjustment takes place in Chapter Approved. 

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

 

 

I kind of agree, but that makes Cultists worse, not CSM better. I agree with the change though, but I would prefer seeing an Endless Cacophony adjusted for the unit's PL or a cheap version for CSM units à la Fury of the Legion. They also badly need Battleshock mitigation.

[Cruor Vault]

 

The bog standard CSM is pretty useless, and no amount of saying "play fluffy, man! Play what you want!" will make them any better. It does not feel good picking a unit that hamstrings your army. I play them, and I always sit there going "Cultists would be much better."

 

However, I wouldn't expect them in the FAQ. Point adjustment takes place in Chapter Approved. 

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

 

I've long be a proponent of removing the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword from those units.  It would make cultists significantly more balanced compared to other troops units in the Chaos faction.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

The problem is that the 8th edition AP system changes totally hosed marines, as did most of the close combat changes. Bolters used to ignore the armor of horde units likes guard and orks, and now don't.

 

On average, it takes 6 hits from a bolter to kill a marine. To kill an equivalent points cost of guardsmen (3 of them, so even less than a marine) takes 6.75 bolter  hits now, when it used to take 4.5. That's a 50% change. Marines have totally lost their teeth and their superior durability.

 

Couple that with the loss of meltas being able to regularly cripple armor in 1 shot, powerfists threatening anything in CC, melee vs rear armor, and sweeping advance to clear out hordes that we can't kill through weight of attacks, and what's left? Uncompetitive fluff lists that struggle even against other faction's uncompetitive fluff lists.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

The problem is that the 8th edition AP system changes totally hosed marines, as did most of the close combat changes. Bolters used to ignore the armor of horde units likes guard and orks, and now don't.

 

On average, it takes 6 hits from a bolter to kill a marine. To kill an equivalent points cost of guardsmen (3 of them, so even less than a marine) takes 6.75 bolter  hits now, when it used to take 4.5. That's a 50% change. Marines have totally lost their teeth and their superior durability.

 

Couple that with the loss of meltas being able to regularly cripple armor in 1 shot, powerfists threatening anything in CC, melee vs rear armor, and sweeping advance to clear out hordes that we can't kill through weight of attacks, and what's left? Uncompetitive fluff lists that struggle even against other faction's uncompetitive fluff lists.

This is because Guardsmen and Chaos Cultists are undercosted and/or Marines are overcosted. Those first two are two of the most point-efficient Troop units in the entire game, with Scouts being pretty close. Scouts are a particular problem because they are in the same army and hold table position BETTER than Tactical Squads for less points, which should not be the case. Back when Scouts were either Elites or more expensive than Tacticals (depending on edition), this made sense. Not now.

[Drudge Dreadnought]

 

The problem is that the 8th edition AP system changes totally hosed marines, as did most of the close combat changes. Bolters used to ignore the armor of horde units likes guard and orks, and now don't.

 

On average, it takes 6 hits from a bolter to kill a marine. To kill an equivalent points cost of guardsmen (3 of them, so even less than a marine) takes 6.75 bolter  hits now, when it used to take 4.5. That's a 50% change. Marines have totally lost their teeth and their superior durability.

 

Couple that with the loss of meltas being able to regularly cripple armor in 1 shot, powerfists threatening anything in CC, melee vs rear armor, and sweeping advance to clear out hordes that we can't kill through weight of attacks, and what's left? Uncompetitive fluff lists that struggle even against other faction's uncompetitive fluff lists.

This is because Guardsmen and Chaos Cultists are undercosted and/or Marines are overcosted. Those first two are two of the most point-efficient Troop units in the entire game, with Scouts being pretty close. Scouts are a particular problem because they are in the same army and hold table position BETTER than Tactical Squads for less points, which should not be the case. Back when Scouts were either Elites or more expensive than Tacticals (depending on edition), this made sense. Not now.

 

 

 

Cost is part of it, but not the whole issue. And the wider issue can't be fixed just by adjusting cost. For example, Tac marines would need to cost like 10 points, or perhaps less, to be worth using right now. But then they're not tough, elite infantry anymore. They already got cheaper this edition compared to previous ones, but are still not really good to use.

 

Part of it is proportional points costs. But more is because of the changes I mentioned above. And other armies didn't get hit by the same effects. For example, bolters went from s4 ap5 to s4 ap 0. Gauss rifles on necron warriors went from s4 ap5 to s4 ap-1. Shurikens for eldar went from s4 ap5 to a4 ap0 but with rending.

 

And now we have a whole host of weapons that now decrease marine armor saves, but in the past did not (heavy bolters, autocannons.) So marines have lost durability vs a lot of weapons that they were strong against before.

 

Then there's also the twin link changes, auras, generally more offense increasing abilities than defense, and much more. Marines used to rely on their durability to function. Now they are proportionally weaker compared to other stat profiles, AND also weaker in an absolute sense.

 

I wrote about the whole problem in a lot more detail here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751394.page

[ChazSexington]

 

 

The bog standard CSM is pretty useless, and no amount of saying "play fluffy, man! Play what you want!" will make them any better. It does not feel good picking a unit that hamstrings your army. I play them, and I always sit there going "Cultists would be much better."

 

However, I wouldn't expect them in the FAQ. Point adjustment takes place in Chapter Approved. 

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

 

I've long be a proponent of removing the HERETIC ASTARTES keyword from those units.  It would make cultists significantly more balanced compared to other troops units in the Chaos faction.

 

 

I agree, CSMs (Havocs, CSMs, Berzerkers etc.) should have a separate keyword. It would require a new edition of the entire codex to fix all the keywords (Psychic Powers etc) though. But I'm a proponent of that too. 

 

The problem is that the 8th edition AP system changes totally hosed marines, as did most of the close combat changes. Bolters used to ignore the armor of horde units likes guard and orks, and now don't.

 

On average, it takes 6 hits from a bolter to kill a marine. To kill an equivalent points cost of guardsmen (3 of them, so even less than a marine) takes 6.75 bolter  hits now, when it used to take 4.5. That's a 50% change. Marines have totally lost their teeth and their superior durability.

 

Couple that with the loss of meltas being able to regularly cripple armor in 1 shot, powerfists threatening anything in CC, melee vs rear armor, and sweeping advance to clear out hordes that we can't kill through weight of attacks, and what's left? Uncompetitive fluff lists that struggle even against other faction's uncompetitive fluff lists.

 

The bolter not getting AP -1 hosed them. Meltas are also terrible these days and should have a serious price drop due to the insane opportunity cost. I've played Leviathans with Strength of Heroes with my melta bikes... Even with Death Hex, trying to get any amount of meaningful wounds against T9 with S8 is hard.