A FAQ to get marines back into army lists would be nice

[Sonoftherubric21]

In 2k I regularly field 30-40 some odd marines in 2k; Never had any real issues. 

However, given that the edition MASSIVELY favors hoarding of non-power armored units there are some concessions to be made. 

 

Regarding the use of tons of marines you need to do sets of rhinos, I usually go 10 with Tripple plasma, another 10 with same load out, and 10 Noise Marines. All in Rhinos

However; a top scoring tourney list in the north-east of the US (I believe it was last year?) was actually Abbadon + 100 chaos marines. So it can most certainly be done, though I doubt most would go to THAT extreme lol. I would imagine if you wanted to field 60 chaos marines on foot you could most certainly do that and work it out pretty well. 

 

All of the cult troops are "good" (Rubrics and Plauges) to "excellent" (Zerkers and Noise marines) but again for them due to cost you need to field rhinos. 

Fyi for my Black Legion I use give or take about 30-40 cultists in any given game on top of 20-40 marines (depending on my list build) 

[Raven1]

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

Making other units worse wont make CSM better. We would just have more substandard choices than more worthwhile choices. Its just CSM either, all power armor and termintators too just arent up to snuff this edition. I would first try and improve power armor in general. They cost too much just across the board and having a bolter be a lasgun+1 is bad as well. I get they needed to make people want primaris but at the expense of all power amror including armies that dont get primaris was just a bad idea.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

In the FAQ, they could easily just remove the access to Vets of the Long War from Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors, and then give base CSM squads back their old Bolter + Pistol + Chainsword option and that would go a long way.

 

Then in CA, they could address points.

Making other units worse wont make CSM better. We would just have more substandard choices than more worthwhile choices. Its just CSM either, all power armor and termintators too just arent up to snuff this edition. I would first try and improve power armor in general. They cost too much just across the board and having a bolter be a lasgun+1 is bad as well. I get they needed to make people want primaris but at the expense of all power amror including armies that dont get primaris was just a bad idea.

I said in another post that Guardsmen were undercosted and Scouts were too effective at the traditional Tactical

Squad role. Those all need to be looked at. Cultists, Poxwalkers, and Tzaangors are all a little too effective for what they cost right now. The above changes would fix the internal balance issue within the three relevant codexes. Then Scouts and Guardsmen would have to be addressed separately. This also needs to be done in conjunction with a look at the constant stratagem use that Guard can maintain in combination with cheap HQ's and Orders.

[Raven1]

While i agree that AM CP batteries are far too effective and basic grant infinite CP. I dont know enough about scouts to say one way or another. I still disagree that making one unit in the codex worse fixes the problem. SM in general will still be subpar even if their cheap alternative is nerfed. Power armor troops and terminators are not points efficient making the a alternative unit less points efficient wont make the other more points efficient. On that point we will have to agree to disagree. I still think the best way is to improve the problem unit.

[masterstrider]

GW won't make tactical marines better because they can't sell them in large quantities anymore. There is an oversaturation of them in the market e.g. eBay and in people's personal collections, because they have been a cornerstone of every army since 40k started, and so there is no way to increase sales. In saying that, I predict that there may be a new CSM/SM codex early next year, that will introduce new models in the troop slot, e.g. Primaris as a codex or something. These will be pointed appropriately, and they will push sales of these instead. The only time GW make something worth using is when they a) have an abundance of stock they want to move, b) it's a new product they want to recover costs, or c) the community demand is high and they know they can sell them in droves.

 

In saying all that, you can always take tactical marines/CSM, it's just that they won't be as competitive as possible. But if you're not playing GTs or trying to win NOVA/LVO, then it doesn't really matter. Don't rely on GW to balance the game perfectly because that won't happen. GW is more likely to shift the meta, than balance it. Shifting increases sales, and, they are a company first.

 

Finally, I suggest you build to the meta you're going to play in and forget chasing the impossible net-listers. The top players afford a prodigious amount of time to the hobby, in time and cost, so unless you want to do that, and keep up with the meta, I'd say focus your attention more locally and build with that in mind. You'll enjoy the hobby way more.

[Iron_Within]

Problem with the edition is it massively favours hordes over MEQ. There was a bunch of mathhammering a while ago, but the short of it is a cultists are point for point better in every way to a bolter armed marine. In order for Chaos Space Marines to be comparable to their points cost of Cultists they would have to be about 9-10 points, which is silly. Also, this is before factoring in Imperial Guards orders and other shenanigans.

 

It's not about "efficient" optimised or anything else, it's about being equivalent, and in every way Marines are worse than Cultists and GEQ as a basic troops unit when compared against each other.

[Trevak Dal]

Maybe if veterans of the long war worked in the shooting phase too?

 

And I maintain if all marines got +1 wound and attack with no points increase (not Custard Bois they got plenty) the odds get better.

[Stofficus]

Maybe if veterans of the long war worked in the shooting phase too?

 

And I maintain if all marines got +1 wound and attack with no points increase (not Custard Bois they got plenty) the odds get better.

 

Uh, it does already, and is great on Noise Marines I must say, less so on regular CSM due to their truly mediocre damage output. 

 

Noise Marines, much like say Deathwatch or `zerkers, have some very nice offensive power, but I would agree that defensive buffs would make them feel more like how I at least picture an 8 ft tall supersoldier with power armour. Death Guard are a nice example of getting only minimal damage output bonuses for their infantry, but due to extensive durability improvements they make a convincing heavy infantry force. 

[Cryptix]

I'd honestly just make bolters Rapid Fire 2 if the user stands still and allow power armor to either ignore ap -1 or add 1 to their saves against ap 0, but the latter would overlap with TS.

[Trevak Dal]

I was thinking death to the false emperor, the one you don't have to pay for.

[Tyriks]

I'd honestly just make bolters Rapid Fire 2 if the user stands still and allow power armor to either ignore ap -1 or add 1 to their saves against ap 0, but the latter would overlap with TS.

Either of those would make TS too tough, I think. But All is Dust could be reworked at the same time.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

For each model a Marine unit kills in the fight phase they get an additional attack added to their Attacks Characteristic for the rest of the game. It would make them brutal in melee like they should be.

[Cryptix]

For each model a Marine unit kills in the fight phase they get an additional attack added to their Attacks Characteristic for the rest of the game. It would make them brutal in melee like they should be.

Way too much bookkeeping. For aspiring champions and characters maybe, but not every single marine.

[DuskRaider]

Or just play Marines and have fun with it. Good god...

[Panzer]

For each model a Marine unit kills in the fight phase they get an additional attack added to their Attacks Characteristic for the rest of the game. It would make them brutal in melee like they should be.

 

Meh. I have two major problems with that idea.

1. Marines aren't that great in melee outside of few dedicated melee units. They usually want to stay close-mid range and shoot most of the time.

2. It only makes them better after they have done their job, so it doesn't help them doing their job at all.

[Closet Skeleton]

. The only time GW make something worth using is when they a) have an abundance of stock they want to move, it's a new product they want to recover costs, or c) the community demand is high and they know they can sell them in droves.

 

The rules designers don't let crappy units stay crappy edition after edition because they know they can't sell, they just forget about them. Sometimes they make a new unit over powered but there were tons of new units that completely sucked. The whole Primaris range was useless on release. Warp Talons and Raptors were pretty useless, the last ork release became useless after a few months and a lot of the new models were never good (mega nobs).

 

Competitive play is just too small to drive sales.

[Daemon Prince Marbas]

I think Marines, heretical or not, need a buff but on a legion basis. Just for Chaos I have a few ideas.

Emperor's Children- normal Marines can fight twice. They're no Khorne Berzerkers but it's something.

Iron Warriors- representing their lore of them having tougher armor than most legions I'd say give them a 2+ save

Night Lords- a "dirty fighter" rule that states if a Chaos Space Marine takes damage in the fight phase roll a d6. On a 5+ the enemy unit takes it instead. It's fluffy and it'd be a pain in the ass for opponents to deal with without being broken.

World Eaters- if a marine model dies it can immediately fight again before removal from the table. Pretty cheeky ability

Black Legion- representing their superior experience, discipline, and blessings compared to other legions they have a BS and WS of 2+. Nice but not broken

Word Bearers- representing their occult knowledge and sorcerous studies as they're the second most powerful psychic traitor legion, they get a one mortal wound smite like Rubric Marines do as long as their aspiring Champion lives.

Alpha Legion- Marines can infiltrate for free but only generic CSM

[DreamIsCollapsing]

In fact Primaris Marine got great baseline stats to represent them in the fluff : 3+ save, 4E and 2W are a great way to represent a Space Marine. We just need a way to make that a base for all imperial and chaos SM (wich means Terminators, possessed, HQ will have 3 wounds each)

What we need is : 

- A bonus for Jetpack unit, something like +2 on the charge roll for ALL units with Jetpack keyword

- Make the Bolter great again : AP-1 will be great, or reroll 1 to wound. Bolt are supposed to simply destroy simple human, even in cover, and are a real threat even for power armor. 

- Give us back REAL anti horde weapons : 

       - Whirlwind Castellan, Defiler battlecanon : Select a unit, throw a dice for every model in this unit. Each 4+ is a hit, strenght 5, AP-1.  

[ChazSexington]

In fact Primaris Marine got great baseline stats to represent them in the fluff : 3+ save, 4E and 2W are a great way to represent a Space Marine. We just need a way to make that a base for all imperial and chaos SM (wich means Terminators, possessed, HQ will have 3 wounds each)

What we need is : 

- A bonus for Jetpack unit, something like +2 on the charge roll for ALL units with Jetpack keyword

- Make the Bolter great again : AP-1 will be great, or reroll 1 to wound. Bolt are supposed to simply destroy simple human, even in cover, and are a real threat even for power armor. 

- Give us back REAL anti horde weapons : 

       - Whirlwind Castellan, Defiler battlecanon : Select a unit, throw a dice for every model in this unit. Each 4+ is a hit, strenght 5, AP-1.  

 

I completely agree, especially for jump pack infantry. Raptors and Warp Talons badly need improvement. 

[Iron_Within]

So if I'm pure wishlisting

• Reduce the points of Marines across the board - they've heavily overestimated the effectiveness of 3+ and T4.
• Increase the points of any "anti marine" weapons - Plasma guns etc. these weapons have been underestimated in effectiveness. Chaos Marines would be down to 10 points (yes 10 points)
• Remove the ability of Cultists to use most Strategems - come on, it's silly that they get VotLW.
• Increase the cost of Astra Militarum Guardsmen by 1 point - this accounts for the utility of all the orders and are better than cultists and conscripts.
• Introduce "Fury of the Legion/Chapter" for all Marine units - bolter armed marines can shoot twice if they don't move.
• Redress the imbalance between the Legions/Chapters, Alpha Legion are flat better than all others, and poor poor Word Bearers. I wouldn't do this through points etc. or nerfing Alpha Legion, I would raise up the abilities of weaker Chapters/Legions. e.g. Iron Warriors/Imperial Fists gain current and +1 bonus to cover save even in open is one off the top of my head.

[brother_b]

Nice ideas. I've been pondering chaos marines for a long time and have blood angels for imperial.

 

Imperial guard are some of the best infantry and with their cheap cost and orders are hyper efficient. Too efficient.

 

Points increases and decreases are the only fixes I can see gw implementing.

 

I've got a hoard of CSM and want to field them. The hardest part has been picking the legion!

[Zodd1888]

Nice ideas. I've been pondering chaos marines for a long time and have blood angels for imperial.

 

Imperial guard are some of the best infantry and with their cheap cost and orders are hyper efficient. Too efficient.

 

Points increases and decreases are the only fixes I can see gw implementing.

 

I've got a hoard of CSM and want to field them. The hardest part has been picking the legion!

Don't pick one.

 

Well, kind of pick one.

 

Do a undercoat of Alpha Legion, and paint another chapter over it weathered. Be who you want to be lol

[Iron_Within]

Other things I would change is adding "Power of the Machine Spirit" to all Space Marine Vehicles - it makes no sense whatsoever that a Predator isn't an agile medium tank able to move and fire/ franky Leman Russes seem more manoeuvrable under current rules. 

I'd also change Battle Cannons to bring them into line with Demolisher cannons - D3 or D6 shots over 10 troops. Additionally with Demolisher cannons I would have them cause a flat 6 hits against Titanic models and buildings - as that's their purpose. 

 

I think the problem I find with GW current process of reviewing stuff is they look at the most abusive stuff from tournaments but not lower down stuff. We have Astra Militarum armies in local group that frankly take the mick and are way overpowered for that level of play.

[RobWrath]

Nice ideas. I've been pondering chaos marines for a long time and have blood angels for imperial.

 

Imperial guard are some of the best infantry and with their cheap cost and orders are hyper efficient. Too efficient.

 

Points increases and decreases are the only fixes I can see gw implementing.

 

I've got a hoard of CSM and want to field them. The hardest part has been picking the legion!

Think about how many virtually identical models you'd have to paint to field a Guard army.

 

Then think about how compact and varied (looking, at least) a CSM army can be.

 

I'm collecting a very fluffy 'pure' Khornate CSM army (i.e..no culists planned and maybe some daemons). I'm expecting to get shot off the board by T2 in every game I play, judging by the comments I'm reading here and on other boards. 

[Trevak Dal]

Depending on what you don't want to take, like if you don't want to take rhinos, then you could take larger unit sizes to get a lower drop count and increase your odds of having a choice to go first or second.

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to big units of marines/zerkers. They can be unwieldy and hard to manage (I prefer several 5 or 8 man squads acting as a "dispersed horde", I designed the core of my list for 6th/7th edition and to abuse the targeting rules by just oversaturating Phil Kelly's favorite army's shooting.

 

"30 some shots with bladestorm, that's impressive you killed...5 Khorne Berserkers".

 

If I was to start over, I'd have world eaters probably halfway between Wade's World Eaters and wargamer Fritz's Berserkers of Skallathrax, and maybe a combined arms loyalist army of Raptors (the Raven guard successor) or Crimson Fists or maybe even Ultramarines (led by Captain Titus)

 

My black legion was/is that kind of army and when I theory build for a loyalist army I pause and say "...that's pretty much my black legion army, except my assault marines can't take melta guns or plasma guns as an option".

 

Basically with what I would take, I could get thunderhammers, stormshields, razorbacks, drop pods, some cool units like company champion and apothecary, but lose out on combiweapons on terminators, weapon options on raptors/asm. But I like how they generally function as an army. I've played them with loyalist rules, but I just like how it's built. 3 ctacs, in rhinos, 3 plasma each, 2x5 Terminator squads, 3x5 raptor squads, 3x5 havoc squads, led by a lord and a sorcerer (I'd use an exalted champ if I could give them a jump pack)

 

I got the spare models to have the 10 man squads be Combi/plasma 5 man squads to do party bus/clown car tactics.

 

More often than not I take flamers or melta in my raptors with Combi on champ.

 

With the exception of the raptors, and some banding, my army looks pretty codex.