C:SW 8th Ed.: Unit Purpose and Mission Hypotheses

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all.

 

Another hypothesis thread; if need be, hypotheses, at that.

The purpose of this thread is to figure out what role each and every single pack in your list will have, thus, how to figure out how to get the packs to work as a single, cohesive fighting force. As in, you as the general intend to take a Battalion Detachment; well, what goes in it? What do your three minimum Troops choices have for kit, role, leaders, etc.?

 

Here's some guidelines.

 

Grey Hunters: solid, rank and file line infantry. Should now always get a chainsword, if interested, a WGPL, and likely two PG's in the pack. Transport to taste.

 

The 'Claws: all can now to up to a max of 15, excluding the WPGL; this is actually more useful than it seems, but, with MSU being pretty easy to run and also fast to kill off, there's a bit of a tradeoff between large packs, and the MSU setup.

 

Intercessors, Hellblasters, Long Fangs: light, medium, and heavy fire support. As in, if you need a pretty powerful gunline, an Intercessor pack with the bolt rifle variant you need for their set role, per pack, will only aid you. Hellblasters are a dedicated medium role unit, especially as decent anti-vehicle, and pretty solid anti-chaff, with the option to hunt TEQ units somewhat well. Long Fangs are stupid strong, especially with their pretty easily accessible rerolls.

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry, Wulfen: while two separate unit types and purposes, the scary part is, if you want, a TWC pack with SS/(xx) escorting in a Wulfen pack armed to the teeth with Frost Claws, Great Frost Axes, well... the saga of the slaughter would be epic, if the Wulfen can be safely delivered.

 

Wulfen specifically: the buff that the Wulfen provide, means that, on the charge, any nearby 'Claw packs are able to reroll the charge and add an additional die from their chaiinsword and Berserk Charge rule on the attack. That's the Wulfen Hunt rule bonus. On the following turns, they constantly get the +1 A die, due to the Wulfen: Kill rule.

 

Vehicles: wow, is this a very wonderful range of options now. By adding the Stormhawk, the Wolves now have a dedicated anti-horde air-mobile fire support platform with tank-hunting ability. Twin Assault Cannon, a Typhoon Missile Launcher, and the Las-Talon? Yes please. As another option, Skyhammer Missiles and the Icarus stormcannon in the nose will only aid you. The twin Assault cannon are fixed; not exacty a detriment.

 

There's also a pretty broad range of transport, fire support, and anti-air ability now. Dreadnoughts, Wulfen Dreadnoughts, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Stalker, Hunter, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Predator... Some are new, but fit a very needed role, if intended. The Hunter and Stalker can fulfill the anti-air role, thus freeing up Long Fangs to provide ample fire support for the packs closing the distance to bring the foe to heel, or, to crack open enemy transports...

 

The Stormwolf and Stormfang, primarily the Stormwolf, truly changes the scope of the Wolves assault game. Nothing new there; but, now, with a possible Air Wing Detachment, a Stormwolf or two, or, if interested, three Stormhawks in varying roles, listed above, will likely keep most other air assets off the Stormwolf. This will permit said 'Wolf's lethal payload to be delivered, and do its job. The snow will run red, if you as a general can see this task done.

 

HQ's: wow, I could make this a thread on its own....

 

Rune Priests are possibly in competition for the best Loyalist SM Librarian equivalent in the game right now. Between the solid powers, can take Psychic Hoods, Runic Armor, great weapon options to go with something useful, and the Runic Axe being no weak default, well... Yea, brosef be cool.

 

Wolf Priests will truly help a 'Claw pack shine. Between the three options of said 'Claws, Blood, Swift, Sky, none will lack from the rerolls to hit. If there's Wulfen nearby, well... Ouch!

 

Wolf Guard Battle Leaders will only aid the various 'Claw packs on reroll 1's to wound. Yes, not great, on its own; but, consider this: if you can afford a single, massive pack, or, two smaller 'Claw packs, that can stay together as a team, and hunt as one massive pack, that's up to 45 dice to hit, hitting on 2's, rerolling misses (1's), AND, rerolling 1's to wound. That sounds painful; yes, the number of attack dice drops to 30 on follow up turns. Just have a Wulfen pack nearby, and, for the charge, reroll the charge distance too, AND, stay at 45 dice while stuck in. ... Yea...

 

The various other HQ choices are truly terrifying, in the right groupings and combinations.

 

Logan, Ulric, Njal, Bjorn, ... There's a pretty solid setup throughout the Codex.

 

So, in conclusion, this thread is about specific loadouts, mission profiles, and the kit the pack needs, as well as support, mainly HQ's, to get the job done.

 

All in all, every pack in a fight needs a specific purpose, even if said specific role is the generalist one.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Go.

 

Edit: forgot some words, fixed.

[M.Redbeard]

Nice thread. I have a bit of a different perception and will do my own analysis of you don't mind.


The biggest one is that I'd say the Wolf Priest mostly.benefits TWC and Wulfen more than the Claws, which mostly get a similar bemefit on the charge with a Wolf Lord.

 

Edit:

 

Well, let's give this a crack.

 

Troops:

 

Grey Hunters are the core of the army. As there are no changes in the codex from the index, I give every single one a cahinsword and run 6 man squads with plasma and combi plasma (combi melta when I'm having fun).They are a good back bone with a bit of punch for me.

 

Intercessors as back field holders and taking shots have a place, but I take them scarcely.

 

Blood Claws. I think they have their place. Due to their high volume of attacks I want to try them out with a WL and if possible a Wolf Priest Dread. But mostly I think they are a pretty burtal assault unit. I want to make a big blob of them and run them.

 

Fast attack

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry Few changes from the Codex too, but I still enjoy them. I might run a pack or two with Frost Swords mainly and a TH on the leader. They are resilient still, although slow. And if they hit they hit pretty nice.

 

Inceptors I think I will start advancing them more. If they survive. Their new mobility with Keen Senses they might be good platforms. Still enjoy the Plasma Exterminator even if more expensive, but as anti troops the Assault Bolter will be great without the negatives to hit.

 

Skyclaws, Swiftclaws. Nice amount of attacks. But I don't see them in any way as a reliable way to get attacks in. Swfitclaws move fast, but their terrible BS means the showts are a bit wasted, and deepstriking the Skyclaws is an unreliable charge. Due to BS attack bikes are a waste of points

 

Fenrisian Wolves, Cyberwolves. Still a way to fill up a slot. They might have a palce but the increase in points hurts them. And I gravitate towards elite armies already so not entirely sold.

 

Heavy Support

 

Long Fangs are brutal as always, even more so. I almost plan to use them in every army. My favored Plasma Cannons will probably see more use.

 

Hellblasetrs. Still very good for both antitank and antiinfantry and my Pack shall still run On the Hunt.

 

Elites

 

Wulfen Absolutely brutal with Hunter's Unleashed. I already really like them and think their TH are one of the best wound outputs on the game. And the SS with Death Frenzy makes them pretty resilient. The extra attack might be nice, but it rarely goes off, but the rerolling charges is good to make charges easier.

 

Wolf Guard, I still want to try out a squad with combiplasma and use keen senses. For shooting the TDA is very good due to resilience and I want to try to find a way to make them good assault units (maybe go all crazy, get a pack of 10 in a Stormwolf and give them TH and something else).

 

Ancient is still great to be with Long Fangs

 

Wolf Scouts, still not a great option but I want ot make them a harrasment unit.

 

Dreads are still attractive but not must takes. Will check the different options but I think they can still fit places in my list

 

Transports

 

With cloaked by the Storm Rhinos are very decent. And Razorbacks with Keen Senses will be shooting pretty well. Land Speeder Storm might be nice as a mobile platform for Wolf Scouts.

 

Flyers

 

Stormwolf is excelent. It is the best delivery system for melee and has a very decent amount of firepower.

 

Stormfang is looking attracitve with the points decrease.

 

Stormhawk looks like a very interesting choice, with a very good option for antihorde and brutal against some Eldar transports.

 

HQ

 

Wolf Lord. Absolutely brutal. Will never leave the house without them, almost always with Saga of the Wolfkin and Wolfen Stone. They will be power houses and if I can bring two I will. Love them

 

WGBL, really nice and will make a good compliment to WL. And almost as strong.

 

Rune Priest has become a great psyker. I used them a couple of times before, but they have some very good options. Very good synergy with a few Stratagems

 

Wofl priest as I said will be brutal with units that have TH. Hunter's Unleashed made their bonus great. Before they moved from 50% efficency to 66.7%, which is good enough. Now they go from 66.7% to 88.9%. Which is brutal. So Wulfen, TWC or WG benefit so much from them it will be a staple of my army too. Of course if you don't manage to kill something in the charge their bonus is still good, so really like them.

 

Bjorn is as good as always and a bit cheaper, so really nice.

 

Arjac as soon as I get Wolf Guard will also be a great force multipleir.

 

Harald though is probably out of the few lists I used him in. As other naed characters will probably use them for more fuluffy optins.

 

Other units are still in consideration, like Aggressors, Reivers and other additions to the army. But the one I have or plan on getting are those.

[Kasper_Hawser]

Something you missed out though which bears some discussion: how do our old and new terminators fit into all this?

 

There is no doubt that Cataphractii look cool, at least the vanila version of it, not the.... questionable look of the 30K Varagyr. But when and where do we use them over the regular termies or the new Tartaros?

 

Tartaros on the other hand are slightly faster on foot, and have slightly better ranged weapons than Cataphractii (volkite, plasma blaster, reaper auto cannon). One thing both are annoyingly missing, is access to frost weaponry otherwise they would default be better than regular cataphractii.

 

Another unit I don't know quite what to make of, is the Great company champion. I would take him if his options weren't so limited, so to me, he isn't a good character deterrent for heroic intervention. Still, he is a very cheap budget champion, and is a good candidate for Lion and Wolf Strategem. And the master crafted power sword isn't that bad, especially with Hunter's unleashed giving us more hits.

 

In general though, I still believe in the "Patient Hunter" doctrine (please do not refer this as the heretical Kauyon doctrine). In the end, although we hit better, we are still somewhat lacking in mobility, therefore we cannot emulate the "Blitz" approach of the Blood Angels. therefore we have to combine our ranged and melee options as one to maximize our strengths. If we go pure melee, like the thunderstar spam of old, we miss out on many of our cool strategems and again, we don't have the speed to get in their face right away.

 

So I hope whatever you guys do, even if you try melee approaches like what Bulwyf does to great effect, I hope you keep your big guns close by, either with Long fangs or the newly cheaper Stormfang Gunship. And in every case, get your characters close by.

[Anarnii]

How is everyone using their stormwolf? I’ve never owned any fliers before any most of my opponents flyers get shot down turn one, so quite concerned about it as a transport for wulfen / terminators.

[Karhedron]

Best suggestion I can make is take advantage of its 60" move. Deploy it last, normally in a remote corner out of range or LOS of most of your opponent's heavy weapons. Run some other vehicle's too in order to distract your opponent's attention. He may be less inclined to try and shoot down your Stormwolf if you have a formation of Dreadnoughts including Bjorn stomping towards his lines or a trio of Predators blazing away at him.

[Karack Blackstone]

Great posts all.

 

The entire idea of this thread is to make sure what I missed is covered.

 

So, thanks, M.Redbeard, Kasper Hawser, Anarnii, and KArhedronuk, for your posts.

 

I totally forgot Terminators; I have not run them enough to feel like I can get any halfway decent use out of this unit type. So, to continue, please, all who read this thread to here, make sure that at least some of this thread's discussion efforts go towards trying to find ways to return Terminators to the fight, at least in time, if not sooner, if possible.

 

As far as individual units benefiting from WP's or WL's, it really depends up on the weapons said pack is using at the time. A pack of TWC with chainswords will receive the same overall aid as a BC pack on the swing. Any unit with a weapon that suffers -1 to hit, will cancel this out on the charge, ending back at 3+ to hit, usually. The rub is, after the first turn, the WP is a better buffer all the way around, but yes, on the charge, being charged, or when they Heroically Intervene, there's no reason to go with a WL, unless points dictate such.

 

WP and WL also lead in different ways. The WL being only reroll 1's to hit, and more of a lead by example HQ, is rather well balanced against a WP, who is more of a mentor and teacher, thus, the reroll misses to hit. There's reasons for each; if one needs a strong melee HQ beatstick, go WL. If one needs lots of rerolls to hit, which a WP brings, even to BC's, especially sometimes large BC packs are easily tarpitted with enemy chaff, well... Again, each have a reason to lead. Take what you need, and make the most of it.

 

As far as the Stormwolf, isn't it's movement like 20" to about 50", with a bonus of +20" on the Advance, thus, 70 inches total? Yea, that's very useful; to the WG TDA of all types units, that might be best put as a must, to stick TDA into a Stormwolf in order to best address their relative lack of mobility.

 

I am about to read your list of discussion, M.Redbeard. I will reply later, or edit in here if no new posts are made by then.

 

Thanks for the great continued discussion all. As an afterthought, 'Claw packs really do shine with lots of chainswords; the leadership of a WP will last well after the first turn, while a WL will be better at killing, just leaving 2's rolled on the to hit being lost dice. The issue is both a mission and points balance; unit synergy towards the intended mission is key.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

Nice thread. I have a bit of a different perception and will do my own analysis of you don't mind.


The biggest one is that I'd say the Wolf Priest mostly.benefits TWC and Wulfen more than the Claws, which mostly get a similar bemefit on the charge with a Wolf Lord.

 

Edit:

 

Well, let's give this a crack.

 

Troops:

 

Grey Hunters are the core of the army. As there are no changes in the codex from the index, I give every single one a cahinsword and run 6 man squads with plasma and combi plasma (combi melta when I'm having fun).They are a good back bone with a bit of punch for me.

 

Intercessors as back field holders and taking shots have a place, but I take them scarcely.

 

Blood Claws. I think they have their place. Due to their high volume of attacks I want to try them out with a WL and if possible a Wolf Priest Dread. But mostly I think they are a pretty burtal assault unit. I want to make a big blob of them and run them.

 

Fast attack

 

Thunderwolf Cavalry Few changes from the Codex too, but I still enjoy them. I might run a pack or two with Frost Swords mainly and a TH on the leader. They are resilient still, although slow. And if they hit they hit pretty nice.

 

Inceptors I think I will start advancing them more. If they survive. Their new mobility with Keen Senses they might be good platforms. Still enjoy the Plasma Exterminator even if more expensive, but as anti troops the Assault Bolter will be great without the negatives to hit.

 

Skyclaws, Swiftclaws. Nice amount of attacks. But I don't see them in any way as a reliable way to get attacks in. Swfitclaws move fast, but their terrible BS means the showts are a bit wasted, and deepstriking the Skyclaws is an unreliable charge. Due to BS attack bikes are a waste of points

 

Fenrisian Wolves, Cyberwolves. Still a way to fill up a slot. They might have a palce but the increase in points hurts them. And I gravitate towards elite armies already so not entirely sold.

 

Heavy Support

 

Long Fangs are brutal as always, even more so. I almost plan to use them in every army. My favored Plasma Cannons will probably see more use.

 

Hellblasetrs. Still very good for both antitank and antiinfantry and my Pack shall still run On the Hunt.

 

Elites

 

Wulfen Absolutely brutal with Hunter's Unleashed. I already really like them and think their TH are one of the best wound outputs on the game. And the SS with Death Frenzy makes them pretty resilient. The extra attack might be nice, but it rarely goes off, but the rerolling charges is good to make charges easier.

 

Wolf Guard, I still want to try out a squad with combiplasma and use keen senses. For shooting the TDA is very good due to resilience and I want to try to find a way to make them good assault units (maybe go all crazy, get a pack of 10 in a Stormwolf and give them TH and something else).

 

Ancient is still great to be with Long Fangs

 

Wolf Scouts, still not a great option but I want ot make them a harrasment unit.

 

Dreads are still attractive but not must takes. Will check the different options but I think they can still fit places in my list

 

Transports

 

With cloaked by the Storm Rhinos are very decent. And Razorbacks with Keen Senses will be shooting pretty well. Land Speeder Storm might be nice as a mobile platform for Wolf Scouts.

 

Flyers

 

Stormwolf is excelent. It is the best delivery system for melee and has a very decent amount of firepower.

 

Stormfang is looking attracitve with the points decrease.

 

Stormhawk looks like a very interesting choice, with a very good option for antihorde and brutal against some Eldar transports.

 

HQ

 

Wolf Lord. Absolutely brutal. Will never leave the house without them, almost always with Saga of the Wolfkin and Wolfen Stone. They will be power houses and if I can bring two I will. Love them

 

WGBL, really nice and will make a good compliment to WL. And almost as strong.

 

Rune Priest has become a great psyker. I used them a couple of times before, but they have some very good options. Very good synergy with a few Stratagems

 

Wofl priest as I said will be brutal with units that have TH. Hunter's Unleashed made their bonus great. Before they moved from 50% efficency to 66.7%, which is good enough. Now they go from 66.7% to 88.9%. Which is brutal. So Wulfen, TWC or WG benefit so much from them it will be a staple of my army too. Of course if you don't manage to kill something in the charge their bonus is still good, so really like them.

 

Bjorn is as good as always and a bit cheaper, so really nice.

 

Arjac as soon as I get Wolf Guard will also be a great force multipleir.

 

Harald though is probably out of the few lists I used him in. As other naed characters will probably use them for more fuluffy optins.

 

Other units are still in consideration, like Aggressors, Reivers and other additions to the army. But the one I have or plan on getting are those.

 

Something you missed out though which bears some discussion: how do our old and new terminators fit into all this?

 

There is no doubt that Cataphractii look cool, at least the vanila version of it, not the.... questionable look of the 30K Varagyr. But when and where do we use them over the regular termies or the new Tartaros?

 

Tartaros on the other hand are slightly faster on foot, and have slightly better ranged weapons than Cataphractii (volkite, plasma blaster, reaper auto cannon). One thing both are annoyingly missing, is access to frost weaponry otherwise they would default be better than regular cataphractii.

 

Another unit I don't know quite what to make of, is the Great company champion. I would take him if his options weren't so limited, so to me, he isn't a good character deterrent for heroic intervention. Still, he is a very cheap budget champion, and is a good candidate for Lion and Wolf Strategem. And the master crafted power sword isn't that bad, especially with Hunter's unleashed giving us more hits.

 

In general though, I still believe in the "Patient Hunter" doctrine (please do not refer this as the heretical Kauyon doctrine). In the end, although we hit better, we are still somewhat lacking in mobility, therefore we cannot emulate the "Blitz" approach of the Blood Angels. therefore we have to combine our ranged and melee options as one to maximize our strengths. If we go pure melee, like the thunderstar spam of old, we miss out on many of our cool strategems and again, we don't have the speed to get in their face right away.

 

So I hope whatever you guys do, even if you try melee approaches like what Bulwyf does to great effect, I hope you keep your big guns close by, either with Long fangs or the newly cheaper Stormfang Gunship. And in every case, get your characters close by.

 

How is everyone using their stormwolf? I’ve never owned any fliers before any most of my opponents flyers get shot down turn one, so quite concerned about it as a transport for wulfen / terminators.

 

 

Quotes in the spoilers above, to reduce thread screen space taken up.

 

I would expect that the 'Claw packs, Blood, Sky, Swift, each need at least one HQ, a WL or WP, leading them and staying with them, to get the most out of the heavy number of to hit dice the various 'Claw packs bring. For the points, a single WGBL might also be useful, as well. Also, if able, a WP and WGBL do make sense sharing the lead by example role for a pack on the battlefield. They also each provide useful rerolls. 2's to hit, rerolling misses, and reroll 1's to wound is pretty dang useful, especially if one is rolling 45 dice on the charge.

 

Here's an overall thought, as a massive hunt group:

 

Option 1:

- Wulfen, to taste/transport size max capacity, or, 8 in a Stormwolf or LRC; with 8, at least 5 TH/SS Wulfen

OR

- TWC, with as many SS/(xx) as needed/able

 

Option 2:

- 2 'Claw packs, 15 each, WGPL

- WP or two, one with each 'Claw pack

- WGBL or two, same, one with each 'Claw pack

- If taking TWC, maybe take a WGBL on TW, to really spread out that grouping

 

Use the shield wall of Wulfen/TWC and any attached HQ's with them to escort in the two 'Claw packs, on each side

A wall of nine TWC, one WGBL on TW, and two packs of four TWC each to taste

And the Blood or SkyClaw packs behind them rolls in with massive, heavyhitting HQ supported rerolls from the wolf tide of the storm breaking the enemy, hopefully.

Swiftclaws are also really solid outriders, if and when able.

 

Every single pack outside of GH's needs a specific, tailored for mission, battlefield role, strategy, tactics to support itself and the nearby packs it is aiding, and the logistical (wargear) options to get their job done.

 

I just guess the point is that, for only 5 points cheaper than an Intercessor, even lacking one wound, being currently free to have 2 attacks, very solid weapons options, and the ability to both charge enemy positions to root out enemy elements, as well as, to stand their ground and rapid fire boltguns to soften or cut down enemy units to hold their objective...

 

Grey Hunters with 'Claw assault anti-chaff support, and Intercessor light fire support I think is going to really shine for those that can get their packs to work together on the table.

 

Edit: remembered something wrong. Fixed. Ah well.

[Anarnii]

I did a bunch of math hammer of terminators vs wulfen after chapter approved. I justs can’t make terminators work harder as a combat unit than wulfen.

 

Their might be a role for combi weapon terminators. Their lack of speed and cost of transports isn’t as big a factor if they deepstrike in and can shoot. The are a big enough threat to not be ignored and can threatened a lot more units without having to always be in combat. They would be tricky to shift and a few cheap power weapons and a hammer would be enough to to put off any charges.

 

For 8 points more than hellblaster, you get +1 save, 5+ invulnerable, built in deepstrike and unlocks all combat weapons and storm shields. Not sure on melta vs plasma yet.

[Karack Blackstone]

I did a bunch of math hammer of terminators vs wulfen after chapter approved. I justs can’t make terminators work harder as a combat unit than wulfen.

 

Their might be a role for combi weapon terminators. Their lack of speed and cost of transports isn’t as big a factor if they deepstrike in and can shoot. The are a big enough threat to not be ignored and can threatened a lot more units without having to always be in combat. They would be tricky to shift and a few cheap power weapons and a hammer would be enough to to put off any charges.

 

For 8 points more than hellblaster, you get +1 save, 5+ invulnerable, built in deepstrike and unlocks all combat weapons and storm shields. Not sure on melta vs plasma yet.

 

Very true.

 

A solid TDA pack, especially Indomitus, would likely make a very stable and reliable ranged objective holder or contesting pack. The real problem is, without a somewhat expensive stormshield, the stock TDA variants outside of Cataphractii lack the survivability they otherwise could get, when adding said SS.

 

I guess the single biggest issue is, with Cataphractii being 4" move, and, the rest being 5", and the best options access model of TDA being stock Indomitus, there's no really easy fix.

 

Hm.

 

Ranged TDA seems a bit... lackluster? Maybe a combi-x pack, with SS? I really wish WG of all sorts could add a chainsword, or otherwise, a third weapon, to get better options overall. I think their previous ability to access something close to this concept. The rub being, there's a very real need for TDA of all types to have even more wounds than now.

 

I have been reading rumors in the Adeptus Astartes section, I think, that mentions the next Chapter Approved, the one for 2018, should help make life easier for all Astartes. This should greatly aid the need for TDA to be at least useful. The problem is, and likely will always remain, the delivery of said TDA packs into the enemy lines.

 

Still, worthy discussion. Please continue; any way to get TDA playable is fine by me.

[Kasper_Hawser]

How is everyone using their stormwolf? I’ve never owned any fliers before any most of my opponents flyers get shot down turn one, so quite concerned about it as a transport for wulfen / terminators.

 

@ Anarnii - special reply to you. I tend to use my stormwolves to ASSASSINATE the enemy characters. Normally those guys will be marching BEHIND their armies, and surprisingly many times, I catch them without any unit protecting their characters backsides.

 

Of course it is rather expensive to use a nearly 300 point flyer (actually much less than that now if you use a Stormfang whose cost went down about 30%), but depending on the enemy character, it may be worth it to assassinate even if the guy is only worth 100 points, but is sure to make your life miserable if he doesn't die NOW. Sometimes the points costs doesn't always mean must use an equal or less amount to get rid off.

 

This is especially true for Necron Overlords and Crypteks who are almost always at back. For Space marines and CSM, it's more difficult as they tend to lead from the front/middle.

[Karhedron]

Their might be a role for combi weapon terminators. Their lack of speed and cost of transports isn’t as big a factor if they deepstrike in and can shoot. The are a big enough threat to not be ignored and can threatened a lot more units without having to always be in combat. They would be tricky to shift and a few cheap power weapons and a hammer would be enough to to put off any charges.

 

For 8 points more than hellblaster, you get +1 save, 5+ invulnerable, built in deepstrike and unlocks all combat weapons and storm shields. Not sure on melta vs plasma yet.

 

TDA with combi-weapons also works very nicely with the "Keen Senses" stratagem. You can fire both barrels and ignore the usual -1 to Hit penalty for doing so (and also any Assault Cannons you have brought along too).

 

I agree that keeping them cheap is the key so mostly power swords or axes. Maybe a storm-shield or two for extra durability.

 

I would probably lean towards plasma for the extra range. Once they drop, they are fairly slow so a more agile enemy may simply slip away. Keeping a 24" range on their guns and 12" double-tap means they will be more likely to contribute, even if they have to foot-slog. Crucially, overcharging plasma does more damage on average than melta at all ranges apart from <6". Since you can only enter play from Reserve outside 9", it makes sense to opt for the gun that gets the best shot in that crucial opening volley.

 

Plasma is also more flexible. Against hordes, you can chose not to overcharge and use the combi-weapon like a storm bolter. Combi Meltas will get fewer shots.

[Anarnii]

 

 

Their might be a role for combi weapon terminators. Their lack of speed and cost of transports isn’t as big a factor if they deepstrike in and can shoot. The are a big enough threat to not be ignored and can threatened a lot more units without having to always be in combat. They would be tricky to shift and a few cheap power weapons and a hammer would be enough to to put off any charges.

 

For 8 points more than hellblaster, you get +1 save, 5+ invulnerable, built in deepstrike and unlocks all combat weapons and storm shields. Not sure on melta vs plasma yet.

TDA with combi-weapons also works very nicely with the "Keen Senses" stratagem. You can fire both barrels and ignore the usual -1 to Hit penalty for doing so (and also any Assault Cannons you have brought along too).

 

I agree that keeping them cheap is the key so mostly power swords or axes. Maybe a storm-shield or two for extra durability.

 

I would probably lean towards plasma for the extra range. Once they drop, they are fairly slow so a more agile enemy may simply slip away. Keeping a 24" range on their guns and 12" double-tap means they will be more likely to contribute, even if they have to foot-slog. Crucially, overcharging plasma does more damage on average than melta at all ranges apart from <6". Since you can only enter play from Reserve outside 9", it makes sense to opt for the gun that gets the best shot in that crucial opening volley.

 

Plasma is also more flexible. Against hordes, you can chose not to overcharge and use the combi-weapon like a storm bolter. Combi Meltas will get fewer shots.

Certainly agree. With the 12” rapid fire it means plasma is in optimum range as soon as you drop. They can still potentially treaten in combat and offer a big enough distraction to give the rest of your army a chance to get into charge range.

 

Not sure for they tactic works better on terminators of jump wolf guard. Wolf guard still get free deep strike, more flexible on board with their speed and more attacks. Thoughts?

[Karhedron]

Certainly agree. With the 12” rapid fire it means plasma is in optimum range as soon as you drop. They can still potentially treaten in combat and offer a big enough distraction to give the rest of your army a chance to get into charge range.

 

Not sure for they tactic works better on terminators of jump wolf guard. Wolf guard still get free deep strike, more flexible on board with their speed and more attacks. Thoughts?

WG with Jump Packs are only 7 points cheaper than TDA. TDA get greatly increased durability (takes about 4x the amount of small-arms fire to kill them) but WG get mobility. If you are just looking for mobile plasma then actually Inceptors do very well on that score getting an average of 4 shots each at 18" range.

 

Each have their advantages. I have a vested interest in trying to make Terminators work as I have 20 of the chaps awaiting construction as I spent most of 7th trying to decide whether to make them Void Claws or Shield Brothers. Now we are at 8th edition and neither are particularly competitive anymore. Serves me right for waiting instead of just getting on and playing with them. Maybe I should just magnetise them and keep the spare parts for 9th edition.

[Lord Ragnarok]

Ive always been very attracted to wolf terminators. Despite their lackluster results in 8th, I will take the littlebitz approach of fielding what I love and making it work. I’ll try Arjac, wolf priest with wolfenstone, Njal, supporting three 15 man packs of indomitus terminators. Will need to find the right balance of support, melee, range, survivability and speed. The additional attacks from Arjac and the wolfenstone is attractive.

[TiguriusX]

Ive always been very attracted to wolf terminators. Despite their lackluster results in 8th, I will take the littlebitz approach of fielding what I love and making it work. I’ll try rajah, wolf priest with wolfenstone, Njal, supporting three 15 man packs of indomitus terminators. Will need to find the right balance of support, melee, range, survivability and speed. The additional attacks from Arjac and the wolfenstone is attractive.

I don't think you can dabble in TDA and win.

 

You have to go all in to make it work

 

Your hammer unit with arjac njal and WL with relic

Your objective takers (barebones SB and some SS can teleport in and push chaff off then take and hold)

 

If only we had the old codex rules for Logan to count them as troops...

[Kasper_Hawser]

 

Ive always been very attracted to wolf terminators. Despite their lackluster results in 8th, I will take the littlebitz approach of fielding what I love and making it work. I’ll try rajah, wolf priest with wolfenstone, Njal, supporting three 15 man packs of indomitus terminators. Will need to find the right balance of support, melee, range, survivability and speed. The additional attacks from Arjac and the wolfenstone is attractive.

I don't think you can dabble in TDA and win.

 

You have to go all in to make it work

 

Your hammer unit with arjac njal and WL with relic

Your objective takers (barebones SB and some SS can teleport in and push chaff off then take and hold)

 

If only we had the old codex rules for Logan to count them as troops...

 

 

I wanted Logan to give them rules something other than ignore battleshock. You know, the old tank hunters or preferred enemy, he also gave everyone +1 attack as well....

 

.... OK, enough wishlisting. He is what he is, gotta accept it and work with it. His chapter master bubble is massive now, I'm planning to try foot slogging him again to see how well he works with my razorback gunline.

 

Obsec terminators would be cool, but again, we're paying about minimum 165 points for a barebones 5 man squad with sword and SB to hold objectives. Compared to about 100 points for a GH plasma combi plasma squad, even less for a 5 man intercessor squad who will have same amount of wounds.

 

As Tigurius says, with terminators, you either go big or go home. To me, this means we can't bring 5 man terminators. It has to be at least 7, and they all have to be armed with same thing, whether it is a combi plasma bomb, or a TH/SS deathstar. And multiply by 2 or 3.

 

Against Inceptors, well, I think Inceptors work best as Chaff clearing, whereas a combi plasma WG termi squad is better for removing elites and monsters. either way, both need rerolls to maximise damage.

[Kasper_Hawser]

I'm also wondering whether Cataphractii terminators can be used as a sort of "budget" TH/SS star..... nah nvm. The difference between a TH/SS Indomitus terminator and a powerfist/combi-bolter cataphractii is only 3 points while losing an invuln save point. Not enough to justify as a cheaper alternative, may as well go the full monty with Indomits TH/SS.

 

Oh my terminators, why can't you all be T5....

[Karack Blackstone]

TDA of all types are, realistically, stuck needing a ride.

 

While at times difficult to use, the Stormwolf is logically the best fit. That typed, the Spartan won't hurt, but, it needs a distraction to not get shot to pieces on the table.

 

Any further thoughts on TDA?

 

Either way is fine. I just guess, are there any other might fine units people are finding to make use of, and if so, what other units might they synergize with in a game?

 

Long Fangs: what do you expect is your go-to Heavy Ranged Weapon?

Dreadnoughts: what weapons setup is your default?

Wulfen Dreadnoughts: what sounds cool, what works?

Venerable Dreadnoughts: while the tragic loss of the 3++ is still a sting, there really is no other way, as far as the rules writers are concerned. What now, what weapons setups work?

Wolf Guard: any interest?

Wolf Guard TDA, all types: TH/SS makes sense, and likely always will. Any other loadouts on your table?

Wolf Scouts: they need something; for you, what?

Grey Hunters: what is your default, cover all possible options, loadout? Rhino? If or if not, why?

Blood Claws: same?

SkyClaws: what works for you, what HQ's if any might you pair up?

Swift Claws: strong on the shooting and flanking, not exactly stellar at melee. What use do you find for them?

 

Wulfen: arguably too good, in a way, what do you think is a/the best use, kit, ride if any, or flanking, delivery method?

What, if anything, are the Wulfen near, to get their buffs going? Blood Claws benefit greatly; do you run some nearby? Any HQ's?

 

Anyway, more specifics please, overall. Still, the TDA discussion is hopefully able to continue as well.

 

GH's: 8 GH's, 1 GHPL, 1 WGPL w/ PF/SS, 2 PG, Rhino, 1 SB

BC's: normally, 12 BC's, 1 BCPL, 1 WGPL w/ PF/BP, 1 WGBL stock, 1 WP stock, in either a LRC or Stormwolf

 

Past that, I'm currently adjusting list concepts and meta pack setups to face all-comers situations still.

[munocat]

Reivers are better than blood claws.

 

Reivers : Bolter carbines 10 guys, 20 24” Bolter shots, 21 attack’s. 20 wounds, 180pts

Reivers : heavy bolt pistol, 10 12” heavy bolt pistols (-1 ap) shots, 31 attacks, 20 wounds, 180 pts

Blood claws : bolt pistols, chain swords 15 guys, 15 12” Bolt pistol shots, 31 attack, 195pts

 

Reivers more durable, cheaper. Make great screens, 20 points more can grav chute arrive.

[M.Redbeard]

I still think that shooty TDA os the best option for them. The ability to have a SS and a combi or heavy Weapon makes them far harder to outrun (need two turns of movement to get out of rapid fire ramge with anything that moves from 6"-12"), and with keen senses they have a good volume of fire. Hammers and Arjac are cool additions but the first 5 I'm getting I am going for a more shooty option. The Stormwolf is a good option to move them, but unlike wulfen if it gets shot down they have a harder time moving up. The Spartan is cool, but I feel that it shares one of the worst limitants of the LR the 10" movement, which means it takes a couple of turns to really deliver the cargo to enemy lines, or it has to advance wasting the points on the guns. I think it'd be better like filled with BC or another cheap unit that can move better after disembarking amd present a double threat with a Stormwolf.

 

For the questions.

 

I think I'll stick with Plasma Cannons on my LF unless there is a shift in meta. There aren't that many Knights in my games, and against T7 plasma works wonders.

 

I don't use regular Dreads, but a shooty with ML and Las might me a decent weapons platform.

 

Wulfen Dread I will probably try to be as cheap as possible. So SB and Claw and Shield. Nice distraction and if not focused a decent antitank.

 

Ven Dread still works as a character shield, more so paired with Cloaked by the Storm. If nit as a Dread with ranged is pretty good investment.

 

Wolf Guard, I really look fowards to get a blob and leave them in a Stormwolf. Get a comvinatuon of shooty and TH amd DS Arjac. They will probably die and nit make the points back but the surpirse a relatively standard unit of infantry can male will be worth it. Jump Packs are still cool.

 

TDA, will still have the same issues but shooty variant will see some play for me. Tartaros and Cataphractii I will get when I can because they are cool, but far from a priority (also hate that they don't feel fluffy)

 

Wolf Scouts, I want to try am Assault unit with Shotguns and Meltas. I'd like the return of melee weapons at least to make them feel like veterans, and in geberal our OBEL could be pumped up a little (we are already restricted to table edeges, maybe then loosen the 9", that'd make the harrassment opportunities of WS betterand harder to screen for, being a tool of psychological warfare).

 

Grey Hunters I will keep my current setup, which is a 6 man unit WGPL with Combiplasma (melta when I want to have fun), plasma gun, plasma pistol and chainswords. Razorback for transport, with twin assault cannons. Might sometimes go for a WGPL TDA for fun too.

 

Blood Claws on a Stormwolf will be very fun to use. Maybe a PF amd TH in a unit of 16 and use Overwhelming Impetuosity to a oid having an HQ near to tear through an enemy unit. Just thought that it might be a decent synergy with Hnour the Chapter.

 

Skyclaws are cool,too bad te unreliable charges. Might get a squad because they look fun, but doubt they'll be a mainstay. If they were BS 3+ they'd be a top unit.

 

Swiftclaws similar to Skyclaws fun little unit, but the BS ruins their shooting and no reliable way yo get the charge off.

 

Wulfen I love. My pack of 5 always helps and I want more. I use them TH/SS because it makes them unexpectadly tanky and divert a lot of attention. I usually outflank them but with a Stormwolf they are brutal. As for thei buffs I use the reroll but plan to have them tear through a flank usually so they don't mess the use of the Wulfen Stone. I prefer that they get buffed, always running a WP and a lot of times a WGBL too. They are strong and they are there to do as much damage as possible rather than be buffers.

 

 

Reivers are better than blood claws.

 

Reivers : Bolter carbines 10 guys, 20 24” Bolter shots, 21 attack’s. 20 wounds, 180pts

Reivers : heavy bolt pistol, 10 12” heavy bolt pistols (-1 ap) shots, 31 attacks, 20 wounds, 180 pts

Blood claws : bolt pistols, chain swords 15 guys, 15 12” Bolt pistol shots, 31 attack, 195pts

 

Reivers more durable, cheaper. Make great screens, 20 points more can grav chute arrive.

On the charge the BC have 46 attacks. You can lose an atrack to add a PF and can add a WGPL for more attacks and a TH. And can reroll for themselves all of those for 1 CP.

 

And they count for your troops tax. So the comparision isn't as straigh fowards as it seems.

[PeteySödes]

Reivers are better than blood claws.

 

Reivers : Bolter carbines 10 guys, 20 24” Bolter shots, 21 attack’s. 20 wounds, 180pts

Reivers : heavy bolt pistol, 10 12” heavy bolt pistols (-1 ap) shots, 31 attacks, 20 wounds, 180 pts

Blood claws : bolt pistols, chain swords 15 guys, 15 12” Bolt pistol shots, 31 attack, 195pts

 

Reivers more durable, cheaper. Make great screens, 20 points more can grav chute arrive.

 

For an army with so many great elite choices, reivers are so outclassed its not even funny.

[munocat]

 

Reivers are better than blood claws.

Reivers : Bolter carbines 10 guys, 20 24” Bolter shots, 21 attack’s. 20 wounds, 180pts

Reivers : heavy bolt pistol, 10 12” heavy bolt pistols (-1 ap) shots, 31 attacks, 20 wounds, 180 pts

Blood claws : bolt pistols, chain swords 15 guys, 15 12” Bolt pistol shots, 31 attack, 195pts

Reivers more durable, cheaper. Make great screens, 20 points more can grav chute arrive.

On the charge the BC have 46 attacks. You can lose an atrack to add a PF and can add a WGPL for more attacks and a TH. And can reroll for themselves all of those for 1 CP.

And they count for your troops tax. So the comparision isn't as straigh fowards as it seems.

I missed the plus 1 attack, that is awesome.

[TiguriusX]

on the topic of Blood claws it lools like greysquigg discovered they make the best lone wolf factory

 

a TDAWG from a BC pack has 3 attacks on the charge. Give him a TH and SS and he cant wait for his BC escort to die so he can avenge them

[Jackalwolf]

Hey guys so made a new list with more boots on the ground to have field control:

 

- 2x 8 GH with plasma and leader with axe

- 1x 5 BC and leader with power fist

- Bjorn

 

- Spartan with 2x WG cataphractii, Arjac and rune priest with the armour or Russ or the wulfen stone

 

- 7 wulfen outflanking, 4TH, 1 axe

 

Thoughts? It's meant to represent ashes of Prospero. In games over 2000 the blood claws will be led by Lukas and I'll add also Njal so all the characters are there!

[Karack Blackstone]

Hey guys so made a new list with more boots on the ground to have field control:

 

- 2x 8 GH with plasma and leader with axe

- 1x 5 BC and leader with power fist

- Bjorn

 

- Spartan with 2x WG cataphractii, Arjac and rune priest with the armour or Russ or the wulfen stone

 

- 7 wulfen outflanking, 4TH, 1 axe

 

Thoughts? It's meant to represent ashes of Prospero. In games over 2000 the blood claws will be led by Lukas and I'll add also Njal so all the characters are there!

 

That honestly sounds rather solid, at least, without knowing the full details of your unit composition.

 

What do the two WG Cataphractii have, as far as individual kit goes? With Arcjac, a Rune Priest in a PA equivalent armor, that leaves 22 PA slots, or 11 TDA slots left to fill. I'm just curious about your individual loadouts, and what purpose each of the two packs will serve, if separate missions are intended.

 

As far as the overall force goes, the only thing you might consider is twin Lascannon on Bjorn, if points allow. Ranged heavy fire support is your only potential weakness. However, that typed, you seem to have a pretty solid Troops base, with the ability to tarpit and bring to heel just about any tank, overall.