Thunder Hammer caddies

[Karhedron]

With Knights looking to become a permanent part of the meta, Thunder Hammers are going to become pretty much mandatory for armies that have access to them as few armies have the firepower to drop Knights in a hurry behind their rotating Ion shields. Guard, Eldar and Tau might have the big guns necessary to take down a Knight but Wolves will struggle.
 
What is a loyal son of Russ to do? Take up our best close combat weapons and slay these beasts up close of course!
 
Space Wolves are fairly blessed in having more units than most MEQ armies that can wield these weapons. We also have the advantage of +1 to-Hit in the first round of combat which helps negate the unwieldy nature of these weapons so I am trying to see how the different options measure up.
 
Wolf Lord
A Wolf Lord with JP, TH and SS is a solid choice. Give him the Wulfen Stone and Saga of the Wolf Kin for a total of 6 attacks, hitting on 2s with rerolls. That will do about 12 wounds to a Knight on average. The only downside is this guy is very vulnerable to overwatch unlike the BA Captan Smash.
 
Points per attack: 21.6
Points per average wound: 17.8
 
Advantages: Does not need other units to buff him. Can fight twice with HOTC or OIDDE
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to overwatch. Vulnerable to small-arms fire so likely to be killed after the first charge.
 
Wolf Guard
Give Wolf Guard in power armour, JP, TH and SS. You know have a unit that can do a similar job to a WL. They only hit on 3s and have no native reroll though. Also vulnerable to small arms fire as they are still 1 T4 wound behind a 3+ save.
 
Points per attack: 20.5
Points per average wound: 20.5
 
Advantages: Fast
Weaknesses: Vulnerable to small-arms fire. No native buffs
 
Wolf Guard Terminators
Arjac's shield brothers in all but name. Much tougher than JP models but also much slower. You can teleport them in but a 9" charge is risky, even with rerolls. Transports are an option but are expensive. Possibly useful if you face someone running a Knight Gallant as a distraction Carnifex as you know it will come to you but less good at hunting down targets.
 
Points per attack: 24
Points per average wound: 24
 
Advantages: Fairly resistant to small-arms fire.
Weaknesses: No native buffs, Slow
 
Wulfen
Native S5 means their hammer attacks will be wounding on a 3+ rather than a 4+ like most of the other options listed. They have a 5+ FNP and can fight again if they get killed. Although faster than most infantry, they still really need a transport to get them where they are going.
 
Points per attack: 25
Points per average wound: 18.7
 
Advantages: Fairly resistant to small-arms fire. 5+ FNP. Can fight again if killed. Buff nearby units.
Weaknesses: Still need a transport
 
Thunderwolves
Much tougher and faster than other options mean TWC can reliably get their Hammers where they need to go. 3 wounds each is handy as even overcharged plasma will not kill a whole model. The downside is their price. You are paying a lot for their abilities and for their bite attacks which may help against infantry but which will not do a great deal to a Knight.
 
Points per attack: 33
Points per average wound: 33
 
Advantages: Fairly resistant to small-arms fire. Fast, durable.
Weaknesses: High cost. Not optimised for dealing with high toughness targets.
 
Summary
 
In terms of points efficiency, the Wolf Lord and Wulfen stand out as being the clear winners here due to hitting better and harder respectively. Other units can be buffed in these areas by a Wolf Priest or WGBL but these will need to be factored into their costs.
 
Poor old Wolf Guard Terminators come off particularly poorly in this comparison and have little going for them beyond modest durability. However I don't think it will surprise anyone that 8th edition is not kind to Terminators in general.
 
Thunderwolves on the face of it do not look great either but it overlooks that they do not need any transport to reliably get where they are going. These guys can reliably pull off a T2 charge in most cases. They also benefit from the maximum number of buffs (Wulfen, Wulfen Stone, Arjac, Logan, Healing Balms). If you are looking for a unit that has good flexibility and mobility then TWC have a roll as they can mulch light infantry too. If you want pure hitting power then Wulfen are where its at.
 
In summary I think that a hitty Wolf Lord is going to become a staple, much as Captain smash has for Blood Angels. The question then becomes what you chose to take to support him (unless you plan a glorious solo charge). It is worth noting that TWC can easily keep up with the Lord and benefit massively from his Wulfen stone to a level that exceeds Termies (although does not quite put them level to Wulfen).
 
I am leaning towards TWC led by a Wulfen Stone Lord. I know that TWC are being widely dismissed in this edition in favour of Wulfen but I am not yet convinced it is case-closed.

[CaptainStabby]

You forgot our PA "Lieutenant" a la Wolf Guard Battle Leader. I believe we are the only ones who can tool up that unit entry as a mini smash captain, which is huge for the jumpy smashy meta. Also the pack leaders factor in as we are essentially getting Space Wolf Exarchs.

[thymidine]

This is really useful. Thanks for doing the math!

[Karack Blackstone]

Wulfen will most likely the be go-to TH swing delivery system, because TWC are now base S 4, T 5 on their stat line.

 

They get 2 A, S 4 swings base, and, the TWM itself gets 3 A, S 5 swings with its teeth and claws.

 

Not ideal, for the TWC prevalence at all.

 

Still, Wulfen being able to buff nearby 'Claws, swing once, and again with a Strategem, and if killed, a third time on death, along with relatively solid survivability with T 5, 4+, 3++ nearly a given for most of the pack, and a 5+ FNP...

 

Wulfen led by a nearby WGBL or WL with JP, TH/SS, and if able, Runic Armor, is going to shred things reliably.

[thymidine]

Wulfen will most likely the be go-to TH swing delivery system, because TWC are now base S 4, T 5 on their stat line.

 

They get 2 A, S 4 swings base, and, the TWM itself gets 3 A, S 5 swings with its teeth and claws.

 

Not ideal, for the TWC prevalence at all.

 

Still, Wulfen being able to buff nearby 'Claws, swing once, and again with a Strategem, and if killed, a third time on death, along with relatively solid survivability with T 5, 4+, 3++ nearly a given for most of the pack, and a 5+ FNP...

 

Wulfen led by a nearby WGBL or WL with JP, TH/SS, and if able, Runic Armor, is going to shred things reliably.

Wulfen are T4 but S5.

[Karack Blackstone]

Okay.

 

Still, T 4, 4+, 3++, and 5+ FNP with up to three attack sequences per turn for one pack is still pretty solid.

 

Thank you for the correction though; I see I need to still stare at my Codex statlines until I can remember them all clearly.

[thymidine]

Okay.

 

Still, T 4, 4+, 3++, and 5+ FNP with up to three attack sequences per turn for one pack is still pretty solid.

 

Thank you for the correction though; I see I need to still stare at my Codex statlines until I can remember them all clearly.

No worries brother, I only really remember because I always have to correct myself on that in games. They really SEEM like they should be T5.

[Vash113]

Wulfen will most likely the be go-to TH swing delivery system, because TWC are now base S 4, T 5 on their stat line.

 

They get 2 A, S 4 swings base, and, the TWM itself gets 3 A, S 5 swings with its teeth and claws.

 

Not ideal, for the TWC prevalence at all.

 

Still, Wulfen being able to buff nearby 'Claws, swing once, and again with a Strategem, and if killed, a third time on death, along with relatively solid survivability with T 5, 4+, 3++ nearly a given for most of the pack, and a 5+ FNP...

 

Wulfen led by a nearby WGBL or WL with JP, TH/SS, and if able, Runic Armor, is going to shred things reliably.

 

I think you've done a good job outlining the issues that have swung Wulfen into prominence over TWC here. Str 4 on the cav reduces their effectiveness at punching down armor as they are now only wounding Knights on a 4 with their Thunder Hammers and while tougher and faster on their own than the Wulfen the Wulfen can potentially attack two or three times in a round and provide buffs to nearby units as well. The added bonuses to Wulfen and their greater strength and thus damage potential and lower cost have all pushed them ahead of TWC this addition.

 

However TWC do still have some benefits, namely toughness and wounds, the ability to soak up an overcharged plasma shot without going down gives them greater survivability vs Hellblasters or Guard plasma spam which is capable of dropping a termie or wulfen per shot that causes damage, though the Wulfen FNP will also do that for 1/3 of the damage inflicted.

 

I'll be interested to see what lists pop up at the next competitive events. We might see some cheap jump pack battle leaders running around with some Wulfen for buffs but until then who knows what will shake out in playtesting.

[Armchairarbiter]

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so. 

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry. 

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet. :D 

[M.Redbeard]

Interesting topic. Nice to see it. Confirming what I thought, Wolf Lords and Wulfen the best units for TH. And do not underestimate the speed of Wulfen on foot. On avergae they mive like TWC thanks to them being able to advance and charge.

 

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so.

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry.

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet. :D

TWC wounds Knight on a 4+ regularly. Wulfen are a 3+. And the stratagem is reroll wound rolls of 1. Wulfen really outclass them in several regards.

[Armchairarbiter]

Interesting topic. Nice to see it. Confirming what I thought, Wolf Lords and Wulfen the best units for TH. And do not underestimate the speed of Wulfen on foot. On avergae they mive like TWC thanks to them being able to advance and charge.

 

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so.

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry.

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet.

TWC wounds Knight on a 4+ regularly. Wulfen are a 3+. And the stratagem is reroll wound rolls of 1. Wulfen really outclass them in several regards.

 

 

I see. Knights are T8 then? For some reason I thought they were T7. There are not many Knights in my group meta, mainly a Magnus, so I am out of the loop on this. That is sad indeed and if the strat is re-roll 1s only that is sad as well. 

[thymidine]

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so. 

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry. 

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet.

 

I think this is a great point, and one I hadn't considered before. TWC with mostly frost sword/SS and 2xwolf claw synergize much better with the mount's 'heavy bolter' attacks.

 

TWC would wound a knight on 4s (only STR 4 this edition) while wulfen are wounding on 3s with their STR 5.

 

According to Mathhammer:

5 Wulfen, 4 with TH/SS and 1 Frost Claws on leader= 239 pts.

These do a total of 16.5 damage in one round of combat with a knight-equivalent (T8, 3+ save)

 

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS = 264 pts.

These do a total of 9.2 damage in one round of combat with a knight-equivalent (T8, 3+ save)

 

Now for buffs:

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS and reroll wounds of 1 stratagem: 10.7 damage in one round

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS and +1 attack from Wulfen (or Wulfen Stone or Saga Aura): 12.5 damage

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS and reroll wounds of 1 stratagem and +1 attack: 14.6 damage

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS and +2 attack (pick 2 stacking buffs): 15.8 damage

4 TWC with 4 TH/SS and reroll wounds of 1 stratagem and +2 attack (pick 2 stacking buffs): 18.5 damage

 

Seems clear that wulfen are the far superior KEQ (knight equivalent) killers. Cheaper and get more damage through, even with buffs on the TWC.

[Vash113]

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so. 

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry. 

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet.

That's an interesting thought. IIRC a re-rolling 4 is better than a 3 by a bit. Though that's before the Wulfen get to attack twice or more. Perhaps TWC would be better running pairs of Wolf Claws for the extra attack and re-rolls to wound. That would give TWC three attacks and re-rolling to wound. Plus it'd be a little cheaper.

 

 

[M.Redbeard]

 

 

I am not sure if we should be looking at Thunderwolf Cavalry as high damage units anymore. They can bring thunderhammers but I don't think they are the proper platform to do so.

 

We should be trying to maximize their effectiveness alongside their mount attacks. To me, this means dropping their storm shields and using either frost swords/frost axes on them as a means to chew through infantry.

 

Keep the Knight hunting to Bjorn, Wulfen, Wolf Lords and our Predators/Stormwolfs/Stormfangs.

 

I suppose with their strategem, the TWC could effectively use the TH.. if I remeber correctly it lets them re-roll wounds? That would give them a slight advantage as both TWC and Wulfen wound the knight on 3s, correct? I am not doing the hard math to compare but with a nearby buff giving them extra attacks and the re-roll wounds they may get the damage through more reliably. Feel free to correct my mistakes, I haven't memorized our book yet.

That's an interesting thought. IIRC a re-rolling 4 is better than a 3 by a bit. Though that's before the Wulfen get to attack twice or more. Perhaps TWC would be better running pairs of Wolf Claws for the extra attack and re-rolls to wound. That would give TWC three attacks and re-rolling to wound. Plus it'd be a little cheaper.

 

Sadly it is only rerolling 1s, it isn't better. TWC I think excell at Infantry killing, and even a Hammer or two for T7 vehicles is good. They just aren't a good match against Knights. Although they might help to lock them up in combat.

 

I see. Knights are T8 then? For some reason I thought they were T7. There are not many Knights in my group meta, mainly a Magnus, so I am out of the loop on this. That is sad indeed and if the strat is re-roll 1s only that is sad as well.

yeah Standard Knight are T8. And Overwelming Savagery is indeed reroll wound rolls of 1. It is ok when out of range of a WGBL and it is important to wound but a bit underwhelming

[Armchairarbiter]

What about 3 Predators with kill shot for killing Knights? Autocannons + lascannon sponsons? 

[thymidine]

What about 3 Predators with kill shot for killing Knights? Autocannons + lascannon sponsons? 

 

3 predators with autocannons, no sponsons = 390 points (ouch)

 

without killshot, one round of shooting does 4 damage to a KEQ (from all 3 predators). Remember, they get a 5++ inv against shooting (assuming they don't use their stratagem to increase that to a 4++).

 

with killshot, one round of shooting does 8 damage to a KEQ.

 

3 predators with lascannons, no sponsons = 420 points (double ouch!)

 

without killshot, one round of shooting does 6.2 damage to a KEQ.

 

with killshot, one  round of shooting does 10 damage to a KEQ.

 

And remember, if just one pred gets killed, you can't use killshot anymore.

 

I'd do the mathhammer with the sponsons, but the cost is just outrageous if you add them in.

[M.Redbeard]

What about 3 Predators with kill shot for killing Knights? Autocannons + lascannon sponsons?

autocannons wound on a 4+ with Killshot which is a bit meh. Las would wound on a 2+. And isn't it for a single Predator? Not sure.

 

With that configuaration you do get about 15 wounds if all Predators get the bonus and without further support. Against a Knight that did Rotatr Ion Shiled but without the Ion Bulwark WT.

 

And the main issue is that you need to get turn 1 or it is almost sure that you won't get to do Killshot.

[WolfLordZeev]

So continuing the TWC vs Wulfen debate.

 

I agree wulfen are the superior choice...however...

 

1. Remember that knights cant walk over TWC to leave combat they can only do that to infantry and swarms.

 

2. It is much easier to pair TWC with buffs to increase their output. Both the wulfen stone, arjac, the Wulfen Kill ability, and Saga of the Wolfkin can potentially apply to them. So a potential of +3 attacks. Wulfen only benefit potentially from the saga.

 

3. TWC are (arguably) better against a wider range of targets then Wulfen.

[greysquigg]

So continuing the TWC vs Wulfen debate.

 

I agree wulfen are the superior choice...however...

 

1. Remember that knights cant walk over TWC to leave combat they can only do that to infantry and swarms.

 

2. It is much easier to pair TWC with buffs to increase their output. Both the wulfen stone, arjac, the Wulfen Kill ability, and Saga of the Wolfkin can potentially apply to them. So a potential of +3 attacks. Wulfen only benefit potentially from the saga.

 

3. TWC are (arguably) better against a wider range of targets then Wulfen.

3 very good points.

 

The only two issues I see are inflexibility due to lots of moving parts moving at different speeds and the cost of the whole package.

 

If you can nail a delivery of twc/wulfen stone plus arjac and your opponent doesn't just sit at the back of the board and shoot you're golden.

 

The wulfen have the advantage of being easier to deliver.

[thymidine]

Remember that this edition, you don't have to take your best save if you don't want.

 

So if that knight absolutely must die on this turn, you can use your 4+ armor save on the wulfen to, hopefully, kill some of them off so they can fight again.

[rgr_maddog]

Remember that this edition, you don't have to take your best save if you don't want.

 

So if that knight absolutely must die on this turn, you can use your 4+ armor save on the wulfen to, hopefully, kill some of them off so they can fight again.

[M.Redbeard]

So continuing the TWC vs Wulfen debate.

 

I agree wulfen are the superior choice...however...

 

1. Remember that knights cant walk over TWC to leave combat they can only do that to infantry and swarms.

 

2. It is much easier to pair TWC with buffs to increase their output. Both the wulfen stone, arjac, the Wulfen Kill ability, and Saga of the Wolfkin can potentially apply to them. So a potential of +3 attacks. Wulfen only benefit potentially from the saga.

 

3. TWC are (arguably) better against a wider range of targets then Wulfen.

Good points. Lets argue them.

 

1. True. I think I mentioned it, but unless you gwt a very good charge it will be hard to completely surround him, because if not surrounded he can still Fall Back and shoot.

 

2. True, but the stackable buffs mean they only bearly keep up. While Wulfennget only 4 attacks against 5, the better wounding means a lot. With similar support a WGBL and a WP even with less attacks the Wulfen end of doing more damage. And them there is squad sizes, where Wulfen win, as they end uo with 36 attacks against 31, even with all buffs. And due to squad sizes and prices, your proposed unit is only 10 points cheaper that squad of Wulfen with TH amd a suppor WGBL, amd at that price even with full buffs it ends uo in the same amount of attacks. The ability to stack buffs in that regards is overrated.

 

3. Arguably as you say. Wulfen with Frost Clwas are better against T3 and T5, while the Axe is far better than anything the TWC can equip against MEQ. There are less options indeed, but the ootions they have are pretty strong

[thymidine]

1. True. I think I mentioned it, but unless you gwt a very good charge it will be hard to completely surround him, because if not surrounded he can still Fall Back and shoot.

 

No, the knight special rule only applies to infantry and swarms. They cannot fall back and shoot from cavalry.

[M.Redbeard]

 

1. True. I think I mentioned it, but unless you gwt a very good charge it will be hard to completely surround him, because if not surrounded he can still Fall Back and shoot.

 

No, the knight special rule only applies to infantry and swarms. They cannot fall back and shoot from cavalry.

O'd suggest a re-read.

 

From the Codex.

 

"Super-heavy Walker: This model can Fall Back in the movement phase and still shoot and/or charge in the same turn. When this models Falls Back, it can move over enemy INFANTRY and SWARM models, though it must end its move more than 1" from enemy units."

 

The redaction for me is pretty clear. The model may Fall back and shoot from any unit. But it can walk ovwr Infantry amd Swarma, while it can't over Cavalry

[thymidine]

 

 

1. True. I think I mentioned it, but unless you gwt a very good charge it will be hard to completely surround him, because if not surrounded he can still Fall Back and shoot.

 

No, the knight special rule only applies to infantry and swarms. They cannot fall back and shoot from cavalry.

O'd suggest a re-read.

 

From the Codex.

 

"Super-heavy Walker: This model can Fall Back in the movement phase and still shoot and/or charge in the same turn. When this models Falls Back, it can move over enemy INFANTRY and SWARM models, though it must end its move more than 1" from enemy units."

 

The redaction for me is pretty clear. The model may Fall back and shoot from any unit. But it can walk ovwr Infantry amd Swarma, while it can't over Cavalry

My mistake! I had heard it only worked on infantry and swarms. Thanks for the correction.