Fixing the loyal 32 without breaking the Guard

[dakkamasta]

The easiest way for that to work is probably for Chapter Approved to have a list of how much CP each faction gets for each detachment.

 

So for example, a Custodes Battalion gives 8-10 CP and Vanguard/Spearhead/Outrider give 3 (Supreme Command should stay as 1CP imo). This will balance out the fact that a Custodes battalion is around 800pts minimum whereas other factions can take one for a fraction of the cost.

 

I always felt from the start of 8th that giving a set amount of CP for each detachment regardless of faction was going to lead to problems. The Brigade for example, is almost impossible to bring in 1850pts for some armies without making a terrible list, whereas for other armies it's stupidly easy to fill and still have 50-60% of your points left.

[Mileposter]

The simplest fix to CP Batteries (i.e. reducing them, not eliminating them) to my way of thinking would be a change to the traits/abilities that regenerate CP. "Thing happens, gain 1 CP until the end of the current phase". Will allow you to burst some stratagems in the same phase, so still useful, but doesn't work for stockpiling. Simplest in that it only requires a single FAQ'd line change to a single style of rule rather than entire reworks.

 

Wouldn't stop some from taking the 'Loyal 32' for extra CP, certainly, and thus not exactly a huge hit to the Guard or to Soup directly. But some choose the Guard Battery specifically for the regeneration and... That'd help.

 

Not best, perhaps, but perhaps easiest. Mileage may vary.

[Thorakitai]

I'm not sure elite armies having limited access to command points is a bad thing, necessarily. In a world where GW balancing is sensible (a difficult to imagine world, I know) elite army strategems would be game breakingly powerful, balanced by only getting a few chances to use them, while less elite armies would have lots of command points, but all of the strategems would do minor things, or things with a chance of failure (like ones that only go off on a 4+) or be expensive.

 

It sort of looks like that is what GW is trying to do. Compare guard strategems to custodes ones for example. But as usual, the quality and consistency of the rules is all over the place, so it doesn't really work out well in reality.

[Tirak]

I'm not sure elite armies having limited access to command points is a bad thing, necessarily. In a world where GW balancing is sensible (a difficult to imagine world, I know) elite army strategems would be game breakingly powerful, balanced by only getting a few chances to use them, while less elite armies would have lots of command points, but all of the strategems would do minor things, or things with a chance of failure (like ones that only go off on a 4+) or be expensive.

 

It sort of looks like that is what GW is trying to do. Compare guard strategems to custodes ones for example. But as usual, the quality and consistency of the rules is all over the place, so it doesn't really work out well in reality.

 

This^

 

Hyper elite armies should have a hard time with command points for several reasons, but one of the biggest is that any strategem that is affecting a unit that hits on 2+ and has a 4+ invuln save on every single unit has a much greater multiplier effect than against  your bog standard guardsman at his 4+ hitting and his 5+ armor. A reroll CP for a Custode is leaps and bounds more powerful than on a Guardsman, and as anyone who's managed to nail one of those golden boys with massed fire only to get a couple through that are easily fixed by a quick reroll can attest, the very strength of the unit innately makes every CP spent much more effective. The strategems as originally written and clearly intended for forces that might combo 4 or 5 CP spent on a single unit were only meant to actually have an impact on the battle once or twice, not continuously every turn because The Loyal 32 were brought.

[MARK0SIAN]

I'm not sure elite armies having limited access to command points is a bad thing, necessarily. In a world where GW balancing is sensible (a difficult to imagine world, I know) elite army strategems would be game breakingly powerful, balanced by only getting a few chances to use them, while less elite armies would have lots of command points, but all of the strategems would do minor things, or things with a chance of failure (like ones that only go off on a 4+) or be expensive.

 

It sort of looks like that is what GW is trying to do. Compare guard strategems to custodes ones for example. But as usual, the quality and consistency of the rules is all over the place, so it doesn't really work out well in reality.

That’s a fine principle and I would agree but we are a long way from that. For it to be fair, if a horde army can get four times as many CP as an elite army then the elite army’s stratagems would have to be four times better.

 

That’s difficult to quantify but even in the example of Guard Vs Custodes, the Custodes stratagems are generally more powerful but they’re not more powerful by the same order of magnitude as the CP difference. Fielding a battalion for Custodes is a stretch and fielding a brigade (cheapest 3594 points) is a distant dream.

 

Better stratagems can make up some of the difference but simply not to the degree of difference we are seeing now.

[duz_]

The question is how do the game designers intend CPs to work?

How big a role are they supposed to play? Right now players expect them to a significant part of the game, a key component in fact. However the game designers may have intended them to be more of a seasoning of flavour to a game only used maybe once per turn as opposed to multiple times a phase...

[dakkamasta]

I think the designers very much intended for stratagems to be a core part of an army's playstyle otherwise they wouldn't have made such powerful stratagems, particularly the move/shoot/fight twice ones which exist in some form in most codices.

 

Also as MARKOSIAN said, elite armies having 1/4 the amount of CP is not shown in their stratagems being 4x more powerful. Tyranids can double shoot hive guard and have 24 devourer shots from a flyrant/dakkafex have double damage in the same turn. This is an army that can easily take a Brigade or multiple Battalions. It's easy to just say make elite army stratagems more powerful but that requires an entirely new codex which is not going to happen considering they still need to finish the 8th edition books. We need to discuss ideas that don't involve tearing entire books apart and starting from scratch because it just won't happen in the near future if ever.

[MARK0SIAN]

I think short term, the only thing that will address it is bonuses to elite armies CP, similar to how they did for knights but take it even further.

 

The alternative would be to go down the route of adding more restrictions to the stratagems, something like you may only use a single stratagem in each phase but I really don’t think they’d go for it and it would be very unpopular.

[Exilyth]

If command points gained through warlord traits and relics could only be used by the non-soup faction (read: no imperium, ynnari, ...) which the warlord/relic belongs to, the only people remaining loyal to the 32 would be mono AM players and the occasional soup fluff bunny.

[MARK0SIAN]

If command points gained through warlord traits and relics could only be used by the non-soup faction (read: no imperium, ynnari, ...) which the warlord/relic belongs to, the only people remaining loyal to the 32 would be mono AM players and the occasional soup fluff bunny.

I’m not so sure, even without the CP regent traits/relics 180 points for 5CP (plus the bodies that come with them) is a bargain. People would still use the Loyal 32 for that alone.