Help playing BL against buff castle Crimson Fists

[Syrakul]

So I play Black legion with a ton of units avaliable to me, though often one of each choice. This includes multiple contemptors, a spartan tank, laspreds, Abaddon, lots of cultists etc.

My regular opponent recently has totally perfected his castle of cheese where he incorporates pedro kantor, a lieutenant, a squad of lascannon devs into a group in a high building for cover central of board, with a twin lascannon razor and the primaris supertank both hovering nearby. He then has primaris and scouts spread out to prevent effective alphastrikes. The pedro bubble with lieutenants gives him reroll all misses for all mentioned units and lieuteant then grants reroll ones to wound. Him being in cover really messes my attempts to engage up while as a CF player he ignores my cover. All my attempts at reaching him are laughably incinerated as are any attempts to outshoot at range. Not something Chaos can do. Even overwatch grants those rerolls so ive had dual dreads get close, one at full died to overwatch lascannons only.

Any suggestions? My next f-it lets just try to enjoy myself list wouldve included HQ heavy Khorne Daemons alongside a spartan

[Pearson73]

Noise Marines could be helpful, a high volume of cover ignoring shots should be useful and the blastmasters can swap between modes to punish infantry or vehicles accordingly.

[Deadass]

Also, Obliterators. They always make their points back and will put an end to that laserback quick, fast and in a hurry. Take MoS and use Endless Cacophony to take out another target, or put some wounds on a bigger model like his hovertank. Buff them with a Chaos Lord, or a Sorcerer casting Prescience.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

If you can't crush the castle, then ignore it. All his buffers are with the castle? Then his Troops are out on the wings alone and unsupported. Wipe those out and play to the objectives. And make sure there's some nice big LOS-blocking terrain somewhere in the middle of the table. If his Big Bundle of Lascannons can see everything, that's a problem.

[Syrakul]

Noise Marines could be helpful, a high volume of cover ignoring shots should be useful and the blastmasters can swap between modes to punish infantry or vehicles accordingly.

I have had good results with Noise marines but preventing cover is worse than -1ap in general, and getting them in place at 24’ means likely taking a dread claw and forcing its DS ability. That adds a lot of reserve points when I’d want Abaddon and oblits coming in.

 

As for Oblits when I can I do run them slaneesh with Abaddon or lord nearby, then often bump their strength with VoTLW but if I get a bad AP roll I feel like saving the reroll because the damage feels more important to use it on. Randomness....

 

And I agree about ignoring him and getting objectives. We usually play ITC and I can typically get recon constantly, often getting objective bonus, but wind up sacrificing things to do so, granting him the kill bonus each turn

 

But Im still in the BL mindset where I gotta run the spearhead through em, though when the dust settles nothing seems to have died... (yes im talking 24 oblit shots!) I have another full set of parts to make 3 more custom oblits like my first set, running 2 teams might help with randomness, with regards to selecting who shoots twice.

[Mekhitar]

I had an opponent do something similar with Azrael and dark angels - but the entire gunline vanished when they were hit with berserkers. One downside of sitting on top of a building is you cannot overwatch what you cannot see. Tuck your infantry close to the walls when you go to make your charge.

[Raven1]

My first thought is drown him in wounds. Lascannons while good anti-armor make terrible anti-horde. Large blobs if you take cultits you can make them nigh fearless with abaddon and you can tide of traitors them. Or ally in a patrol of "alpha legion" cultists to get them closer. A bloodletter bomm would sweep them up in a turn. Just make enough room to land them and surround them with that 3d6 charge so they can disengage.

 

Noise marines can get a crazy number of shots aas well as MoS Obliterators and if you ally them as Iron Warriors they ignore cover as well.

 

Myself playing TS/Tzeentch daemons. Pink horrors can easily reach assault 3 S4 re-rolling hots and wounds with a +1 to wound with the right spells, model count, and warlord trait and have a 4++ for staying power. Smite spam, or Treason of Tzeentch allows you to control one of their units your whole turn and Infernal Gateway is a smite that further smites units w/in 3" so particular good against castles.

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

So I play Black legion with a ton of units avaliable to me, though often one of each choice. This includes multiple contemptors, a spartan tank, laspreds, Abaddon, lots of cultists etc.

My regular opponent recently has totally perfected his castle of cheese where he incorporates pedro kantor, a lieutenant, a squad of lascannon devs into a group in a high building for cover central of board, with a twin lascannon razor and the primaris supertank both hovering nearby. He then has primaris and scouts spread out to prevent effective alphastrikes. The pedro bubble with lieutenants gives him reroll all misses for all mentioned units and lieuteant then grants reroll ones to wound. Him being in cover really messes my attempts to engage up while as a CF player he ignores my cover. All my attempts at reaching him are laughably incinerated as are any attempts to outshoot at range. Not something Chaos can do. Even overwatch grants those rerolls so ive had dual dreads get close, one at full died to overwatch lascannons only.

Any suggestions? My next f-it lets just try to enjoy myself list wouldve included HQ heavy Khorne Daemons alongside a spartan

Black Legion can safely field over 20 lascannons at the 2000pt level, along with a bunch of Cultists for durability, and can get a Brigade without too much trouble since a bunch of those lascannons will be in CSM troop squads to take max advantage of "Let the Galaxy Burn." Abaddon will be handing out rerolls on misses.

 

Techsoldaten and Malisteen should be able to tell you a bit more about that, should they be so inclined.

 

Here's another one: a big block of 20 BL Rubric Marines Advancing up the table and still firing Inferno Bolters at 24 inch range. With Weaver of Fates cast on them (which you can switch in for Smite with Chaos Familiar), they have a 4+ invuln and they get +1 to all saves against Damage 1 weapons, so he can forget about Bolter Drill doing anything meaningful and that save bonus takes a lot of sting out of Intercessors and Scouts. Put a few Warpflamers in and when you get within 8 in, don't charge. Just Rapid Fire with Vets of the Long War, and get some auto-hits as well. Inferno Bolters are and Warpflamers are -2 AP, so that takes care of his cover.

 

Black Legion is pretty heavy on Sorcerers in the lore, too, so Smite spam with Sorcerers and DP's could work to clean his guys up and you could have Weaver of Fates, Miasma of Pestilence, and Delightful Agonies all shielding different squads depending on how you did your marks.

 

When all else fails, go big. Grab a Lord of Skulls, Warp Time it in, and Daemonforge your way to victory. :)

[Tokugawa]

Most "tournament competitive" Black Legion lists feature Abby and 100+ fearless cultists. DPs and obliterators could do the nut cracking job.

 

8th is an anti-powerarmor edition, and will still be.

[Syrakul]

Thing is, we are playing 1250 lists, so its hard to dedicate points to multiple strategies in the same list

 

As for Daemonbomb, that would be what? Big blob of bloodletters with 2 cp for DS then 1CP for banner of 3D6? Sucks is I’d not have enough Khorne troops to have 30, then 10 and 10 to meet battalion strength and make a worthy bomb. Could proxy some AOS warriors i guess...

Id also like to include them with a Greater daemon but prefer to take him with trait and relic for surviveability (+1 save 6+ Angry FNP)

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Thing is, we are playing 1250 lists, so its hard to dedicate points to multiple strategies in the same list

 

As for Daemonbomb, that would be what? Big blob of bloodletters with 2 cp for DS then 1CP for banner of 3D6? Sucks is I’d not have enough Khorne troops to have 30, then 10 and 10 to meet battalion strength and make a worthy bomb. Could proxy some AOS warriors i guess...

Id also like to include them with a Greater daemon but prefer to take him with trait and relic for surviveability (+1 save 6+ Angry FNP)

Don't use a greater Daemon. Use a 56 pt Bloodmaster and use the rest of the points for more Black Legion.

 

Try this:

 

 Command Points:  11, 10 after Relic 

 

Battalion: Black Legion      

Abaddon (Warlord, First Among Traitors)  240 

Chaos Sorcerer (Nurgle, Smite, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience, Eye of Night, Combi-Bolter, Force Sword) 100

10 CSM (Slaanesh, 2 Lascannons, Combi-Bolter + Bolter on Champ) 182

5 CSM (Combi-Bolter + Bolter on Champion, Missile Launcher) 92

30 Cultists (Autoguns, Nurgle) 120

 

Outrider: Daemons of Khorne

Bloodmaster (Crimson Crown: -1CP) 56     

5 Flesh Hounds 75

5 Flesh Hounds 75

5 Flesh Hounds 75

30 Bloodletters (Icon, Instrument) 235   

 

 

Everything heads upfield with a combination of Abaddon's ability and judiciously applied Prescience offsetting movement penalties. Some units Advance to exploit Legion Trait. Miasma of Pestilence goes on the Cultist Shield for -1 to hit (or on Abaddon before he charges). Flesh Hounds rocket forward for disruption and board control. Flesh Hounds will also deny Psychic Powers. Combi-Bolters add further shots to deal with hordes and/or maximize Stratagems/Legion Trait. In particular, Daemon Shell can be used by the Sorcerer from a Combi-Bolter at 24 inches after Prescience on himself.

 

You also have a Missile Launcher and Flakk Missile, plus the Eye of Night and (if necessary) a Smite for more Mortal Wounds against certain units.

 

2 Lascannons + 10/20 bolter shots that can double-tap with the Slaanesh Stratagem will bring some hurt.

 

Finally, when ready, you drop in 30 Bloodletters with a Banner of Blood and Instrument, plus a Bloodmaster with a Crimson Crown and the reroll charge aura because the detachment is all Khorne. Whatever you hit will tend to explode in a hurricane of gore.

 

1250 points, 93 models, 11 CP (10 after Relic), tons of Obsec, and the ability to bring back 30 Cultists with Tide of Traitors if need be.

 

Check my math and see how you like it.

[Syrakul]

Command Points: 11, 6 after 3CP daemon infiltrate, banner upgrade and relic

 

Battalion: Black Legion

Abaddon (Warlord, First Among Traitors) 240

Chaos Sorcerer (Nurgle, Smite, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience, Eye of Night, Bolt pistol, Force Sword) 98

5 CSM (Missile launcher, combi-plasma)

5 CSM (Heavy bolter, power fist)

30 Cultists (Autoguns, Nurgle) 120

 

Patrol: Daemons of Khorne

Skullmaster (Crimson Crown: -1CP) 100

30 Bloodletters (Icon, Instrument) 235

 

Vanguard: Renegades and Heretics

Commander 25

Disciple command squad (Lascannon) x3

Basilisk 108

 

This way I have some objective sitters to scare his tanks with cheap 3+ lascannons and a no-sight basilisk he won’t bother reaching

 

Not quite points for 75 p. single hounds squad but he never takes psykers so their deny is not needed, spent the rest upgrading daemon HQ (have model) and some champ weapons. Definitely need to get some SM with lascannons for 8th. Could also stick with your idea a bit more: keep the bloodmaster, combine CSM into one 10man (for VoTL) and another squad of cultist to fill out the battalion.

A basilisk firing without LoS at enemy on open ground grants no cover save im guessing?

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

Command Points: 11, 6 after 3CP daemon infiltrate, banner upgrade and relic

 

Battalion: Black Legion

Abaddon (Warlord, First Among Traitors) 240

Chaos Sorcerer (Nurgle, Smite, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience, Eye of Night, Bolt pistol, Force Sword) 98

5 CSM (Missile launcher, combi-plasma)

5 CSM (Heavy bolter, power fist)

30 Cultists (Autoguns, Nurgle) 120

 

Patrol: Daemons of Khorne

Skullmaster (Crimson Crown: -1CP) 100

30 Bloodletters (Icon, Instrument) 235

 

Vanguard: Renegades and Heretics

Commander 25

Disciple command squad (Lascannon) x3

Basilisk 108

 

This way I have some objective sitters to scare his tanks with cheap 3+ lascannons and a no-sight basilisk he won’t bother reaching

 

Not quite points for 75 p. single hounds squad but he never takes psykers so their deny is not needed, spent the rest upgrading daemon HQ (have model) and some champ weapons. Definitely need to get some SM with lascannons for 8th. Could also stick with your idea a bit more: keep the bloodmaster, combine CSM into one 10man (for VoTL) and another squad of cultist to fill out the battalion.

A basilisk firing without LoS at enemy on open ground grants no cover save im guessing?

Basilisk in open does not remove cover. Otherwise, this isn't a bad approach, based on what models you own (the Disciples are nice, in particular). If you can, I'd swap the HB and Powerfist on the other squad for another Missile Launcher/Combi-Plas setup. See if you can use the Combi-Plasmas to replace the Bolt Pistols and keep the Bolters (can fire both). Adds a little extra anti-infantry.

 

Overall, you're on the right track. Lemme know how you do.

[Syrakul]

“Basilisk in open does not remove cover.“ no I mean opponent is not in cover, but LoS is blocked from basilisk (ITC rules, gonna have to check em)

That bolter trick is facinating, but incorrect. The codex for champ says:

“The Aspiring Champion may replace his bolt pistol and boltgun with items from the Champion Equipment list.”

Then champion wargear section (pg117):

“Alternatively, the champion can take one weapon chosen from the following list”

The errata says change above to following: ‘One of the champion’s weapons can be chosen from the following list:’

 

It’s saying if you want different wargear from his starting gear then select all from champ equiptment list (not replace what you want) then in the equipment list he can have two one handed weapons AND one two handed weapon... so no bolter and combi-bolter, but he can have bp/chainsword/combi-weapon

 

EDIT: researched and corrected stance on bolter equipment

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

“Basilisk in open does not remove cover.“ no I mean opponent is not in cover, but LoS is blocked from basilisk (ITC rules, gonna have to check em)

That bolter trick is facinating, but incorrect. The codex for champ says:

“The Aspiring Champion may replace his bolt pistol and boltgun with items from the Champion Equipment list.”

Then champion wargear section (pg117):

“Alternatively, the champion can take one weapon chosen from the following list”

The errata says change above to following: ‘One of the champion’s weapons can be chosen from the following list:’

 

It’s saying if you want different wargear from his starting gear then select all from champ equiptment list (not replace what you want) then in the equipment list he can have two one handed weapons AND one two handed weapon... so no bolter and combi-bolter, but he can have bp/chainsword/combi-weapon

 

EDIT: researched and corrected stance on bolter equipment

Will research further.

[Syrakul]

 
So we upgraded to 1500 pts and he brought something a bit different (felt sorry for me maybe last few games), still crimson fists but he had:
 

Crimson Fists Battalion:

Pedro, lieutenant
5 bolter scouts x2
6 intercessors
3 bolt-storm aggressors
6 man Dev squad with 2 las, 2HB, cherub
6 Vanguard vets w/4 shields, 2 hammers 2 power swords, 2 LC’s
5 assault terminators, all shield/hammer

2 armigers

I had:
 

Battalion: Black Legion
Abaddon (Warlord, First Among Traitors) 240
Chaos Sorcerer (Nurgle, Smite, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience, Eye of Night, Bolt pistol, Force Sword) 98
10 CSM (2 x Lascannon combi-plasma, MoSlannesh)
30 Cultists (Autoguns, Nurgle) 120

10 Cultists, heavy stubber

5 Noise marines, 5 sonic blasters, power sword

 

Patrol: Daemons of Khorne
Skullmaster (Crimson Crown: -1CP) 100
30 Bloodletters (Icon, Instrument) 235
Skullcannon

 

Vanguard: Renegades and Heretics
Commander 25
Disciple command squad (Lascannon) x3
Basilisk 108

 

(So nurgle cultists, slannesh Marines, Khorne Daemons, and if Renegades traits weren't broken would be Tzeentch)

He selected long table slog deployment, but I got first turn (he had advantage!) Abaddon’s whole force in one layered wave up middle of table, with smaller cultist squad holding backfield ground along with scattered renegade weapon teams. Back-field behind a building sat the basilisk. Skullcannon relatively upfield with Abaddon’s forces, with flanking potential where I saw my Bloodletter bomb going off.

I took ITC objectives : recon, the 7pp+ target slayer (intercessors, armigers x2 and terminators) and big game hunter

He had scouts, intercessors positioned behind large crates along with one armiger, ripe for bloodletter bomb, with skullmaster behind able to both buff my skullcannon and within charge range of one of said enemy units. They made it in to combat with everything, suffering no overwatch damage (scouts and cessors unable to overwatch from hidden positions)

My turn 1: I was also able to drop half an armigers wounds, smite 3 scouts otherside of field, and my skullcannon with amazing shooting totally nuked his aggressors in one round. Renegades all flubbed their shooting 1st turn.

Bloodletter assault saw 8 on scouts, 11? On intercessors and 7? on armiger, tricky positioning even with followup to keep all in coherency and within attack range.

Scouts all massacred, intercessors almost finished off then ran, armiger suffering a single wound, then totally bombing his return attack completely. Skullmaster denied combat due to scouts demise. did not do appropriate combat unit selection/pilein/consolidate so skullmaster didn't get to move up like he should. I regenerated the two bloodletters I lost from armiger overwatch by rolling 1 on my morale roll!

 

Enemy Turn 1 : He charged his second armiger, pedro, lieutenant and a squad of vanguard vets from reserves into the bloodbomb. He attacked with the vets (outside of pedro bubble) killing maybe 7 letters. I then activated 2cp combat interruption strat; killing pedro, almost killing lieutenant, killing 3 vanguard, and putting meager damage on the armigers. He activated Pedro with the SM 2cp slain character stratagem and killed 6 letters. The armigers plus morale losses ended the bloodbomb.

 

my turn 2:  the CSM blob continued to move up. psyker failed his smite against same scouts, passed prescience on the CSM, failed Eye of knight on the armiger. Basilisk killed 2 scouts (so my CSM would be free and clear to shoot and kill his lieutenant), renegade lascannons flubbed all shots 2,2,2. I popped wounded armiger with skullcannon/lascannon fire and it detonated, taking one of his terminators with it at 3 MW!. I mistakenly retreated my skullmaster to grant buff to skullcannon.

 

Enemy turn 2: Some HB fire from devs killed 1 renegade lascannon group, his lascannons into CSM or so. He shot and dual-charged skullmaster/skullcannon with healthy armiger/vanguard, killing both my units.

We ended there. next round was my ball of death positioned to blast away his termis/devs, while his armiger/vets were relatively protected from CSM ball being opposite side of midfield crates, vulnerable to smite/renegades shooting.

 

 

 

The bloodbomb went amazing, and he poured all his forces into fighting it. Abaddon's huge bubble wrap didn't get much to do for that reason but It was a good idea and worth it. The noise marines I filled into 1500 didn't have much to do, might use some bikers or disruption raptors in the future, while the skullcannon provided excellent shooting for his cost. Renagades have yet to be seen but excellent at blocking off my deployment zone. his ideas about dropping vanguard in to distupt my Abaddon-ball were dashed by my busy deployment zone.

 

Very satisfied by this list, thanks for the idea!

[GreaterChickenofTzeentch]

 

So we upgraded to 1500 pts and he brought something a bit different (felt sorry for me maybe last few games), still crimson fists but he had:

 

Crimson Fists Battalion:

Pedro, lieutenant

5 bolter scouts x2

6 intercessors

3 bolt-storm aggressors

6 man Dev squad with 2 las, 2HB, cherub

6 Vanguard vets w/4 shields, 2 hammers 2 power swords, 2 LC’s

5 assault terminators, all shield/hammer

2 armigers

 

I had:

 

Battalion: Black Legion

Abaddon (Warlord, First Among Traitors) 240

Chaos Sorcerer (Nurgle, Smite, Miasma of Pestilence, Prescience, Eye of Night, Bolt pistol, Force Sword) 98

10 CSM (2 x Lascannon combi-plasma, MoSlannesh)

30 Cultists (Autoguns, Nurgle) 120

10 Cultists, heavy stubber

5 Noise marines, 5 sonic blasters, power sword

 

Patrol: Daemons of Khorne

Skullmaster (Crimson Crown: -1CP) 100

30 Bloodletters (Icon, Instrument) 235

Skullcannon

 

Vanguard: Renegades and Heretics

Commander 25

Disciple command squad (Lascannon) x3

Basilisk 108

 

(So nurgle cultists, slannesh Marines, Khorne Daemons, and if Renegades traits weren't broken would be Tzeentch)

 

He selected long table slog deployment, but I got first turn (he had advantage!) Abaddon’s whole force in one layered wave up middle of table, with smaller cultist squad holding backfield ground along with scattered renegade weapon teams. Back-field behind a building sat the basilisk. Skullcannon relatively upfield with Abaddon’s forces, with flanking potential where I saw my Bloodletter bomb going off.

 

I took ITC objectives : recon, the 7pp+ target slayer (intercessors, armigers x2 and terminators) and big game hunter

 

He had scouts, intercessors positioned behind large crates along with one armiger, ripe for bloodletter bomb, with skullmaster behind able to both buff my skullcannon and within charge range of one of said enemy units. They made it in to combat with everything, suffering no overwatch damage (scouts and cessors unable to overwatch from hidden positions)

 

My turn 1: I was also able to drop half an armigers wounds, smite 3 scouts otherside of field, and my skullcannon with amazing shooting totally nuked his aggressors in one round. Renegades all flubbed their shooting 1st turn.

 

Bloodletter assault saw 8 on scouts, 11? On intercessors and 7? on armiger, tricky positioning even with followup to keep all in coherency and within attack range.

 

Scouts all massacred, intercessors almost finished off then ran, armiger suffering a single wound, then totally bombing his return attack completely. Skullmaster denied combat due to scouts demise. did not do appropriate combat unit selection/pilein/consolidate so skullmaster didn't get to move up like he should. I regenerated the two bloodletters I lost from armiger overwatch by rolling 1 on my morale roll!

 

Enemy Turn 1 : He charged his second armiger, pedro, lieutenant and a squad of vanguard vets from reserves into the bloodbomb. He attacked with the vets (outside of pedro bubble) killing maybe 7 letters. I then activated 2cp combat interruption strat; killing pedro, almost killing lieutenant, killing 3 vanguard, and putting meager damage on the armigers. He activated Pedro with the SM 2cp slain character stratagem and killed 6 letters. The armigers plus morale losses ended the bloodbomb.

 

my turn 2:  the CSM blob continued to move up. psyker failed his smite against same scouts, passed prescience on the CSM, failed Eye of knight on the armiger. Basilisk killed 2 scouts (so my CSM would be free and clear to shoot and kill his lieutenant), renegade lascannons flubbed all shots 2,2,2. I popped wounded armiger with skullcannon/lascannon fire and it detonated, taking one of his terminators with it at 3 MW!. I mistakenly retreated my skullmaster to grant buff to skullcannon.

 

Enemy turn 2: Some HB fire from devs killed 1 renegade lascannon group, his lascannons into CSM or so. He shot and dual-charged skullmaster/skullcannon with healthy armiger/vanguard, killing both my units.

 

We ended there. next round was my ball of death positioned to blast away his termis/devs, while his armiger/vets were relatively protected from CSM ball being opposite side of midfield crates, vulnerable to smite/renegades shooting.

 

 

 

The bloodbomb went amazing, and he poured all his forces into fighting it. Abaddon's huge bubble wrap didn't get much to do for that reason but It was a good idea and worth it. The noise marines I filled into 1500 didn't have much to do, might use some bikers or disruption raptors in the future, while the skullcannon provided excellent shooting for his cost. Renagades have yet to be seen but excellent at blocking off my deployment zone. his ideas about dropping vanguard in to distupt my Abaddon-ball were dashed by my busy deployment zone.

 

Very satisfied by this list, thanks for the idea!

Glad to hear it went well. I love it when a plan comes together!

 

So I take it you folks don't use Beta Deepstrike Rules, since the bomb came in on Turn 1?

[Prot]

This thread is full of win.

 

I love the idea of reaching a little deeper into Daemon territory to leverage a large pain in the butt for the Fists to take on. It not only worked but it’s something Abbadon would do.

[Syrakul]

Nope, no beta rules. Ive tried and seen myself and buddy with SM play beta against admech, Tau and fists before and get wiped quick before DS units could add to the fight. CSM need 1st turn to add distractions early so gunlines dont get their pick of targets. The total units that can ds is still half units, or changed to half PP?

 

In opponents case we always discuss helpful strategies for each other going forward. In this case, how a unit like his agressors using anti-ds fire could whiddle daemons by a third + morale so placing as deterrent is crucial. He should have left the armigers to wipe daemons and spent more effort on my CSM turn two, not sacrificing his HQs. First turn he got an absolutely bizzare dice roll on armiger cc attacks. It was like 10 attacks needing 4+ and it was all 1,2,3’s. Threw him off what should have been 4-6 dead bloodletters a turn. I will play the same list next time and see what he brings to counter.

If we play 1250 ill play around with some things, dropping skullcannon/noise marines, skullmaster->bloodmaster and cutting stubber and force axe