Dark Talons

[Trunkello]

Hello brothers

I didnt see tactics discussion here for a long time so maybe we can have a little back and forth about it again.

My question is: are dark talons still somewhat usable even at the ridiculous 200 points? In a 2000 point game if you have 2 of these thats only 20% of your points and have heavy antihorde capabilities. Darkshroud can cover them for 1-2 turn even if you didnt start. -2 to hit can still hit hard 3+ armies too not to mention guard, tau ork or deathguard (poor poomortars with 4+). Is it worth to invest to another one? Its an expensive modell for a testlist but i see it being usefull.

[Basteala]

As per the codex (unless I'm missing something?) shouldn't it only be 160 points?

 

Either way, yes. Dark Talon sees a good bit of play. It clan clear Hordes, you can use Speed of the Raven to let it advance and shoot, giving it a spammable 4++ save, and it can constantly get into rapid fire range with a mix of zooming and hovering. The Rift Cannon is also nice.

 

I don't know how many lists run more than 1. But seeing one in a list isn't all that uncommon. I'd probably run it if I had it.

[Shadowseer]

As per the codex (unless I'm missing something?) shouldn't it only be 160 points?

 

 

You are missing chapter approved points updates.

[FarFromSam]

We can't have anything nice. I'll be happy when allies go away, and codexes go back to stand alone strength again. I'll admit I had a lot of fun running planetary defense allies. (Who were doomed whether they won or lost the fight) But it feels like with units being cherry picked, it keeps fun units overpriced.

 

Idk, maybe next chapter approved will swing the pendulum back to a reasonable price. My hope with termies being so bad the last few editions that they'll get some love.

 

I'm wish listing. Okay, tactics wise, I hear a lot of love for the talon, but I've been unable to replicate their success. I love the model though. Rule of cool takes keeps me bringing it to the table.

[Isual]

Hello beothers

I didnt see tactics discussion here for a long time so maybe we can have a little back and forth about it again.

My question is: are dark talons still somewhat usable even at the ridiculous 200 points? In a 2000 point game thats only 20% of your points and have heavy antihorde capabilities. Darkshroud can cover thrm for 1-2 turn even if you didnt start. -2 to hit can still hit hard 3+ armies too not to mention guard, tau ork or deathguard (poor poomortars with 4+). Is it worth to invest to another one? Its an expensive modell for a testlist but i see it being usefull.

 

Shouldn't that be 10%? 

To be honest I havent tryed them jet, but I would be postive about them still beeing ok.

[Trunkello]

 

 

Hello beothers

I didnt see tactics discussion here for a long time so maybe we can have a little back and forth about it again.

My question is: are dark talons still somewhat usable even at the ridiculous 200 points? In a 2000 point game thats only 20% of your points and have heavy antihorde capabilities. Darkshroud can cover thrm for 1-2 turn even if you didnt start. -2 to hit can still hit hard 3+ armies too not to mention guard, tau ork or deathguard (poor poomortars with 4+). Is it worth to invest to another one? Its an expensive modell for a testlist but i see it being usefull.

Shouldn't that be 10%?

To be honest I havent tryed them jet, but I would be postive about them still beeing ok.

Sorry i was already thinking about using 2 when i wrote this.

[Hantheman]

Dark Talons are still very, very good. And totally worth 200 points. I still run 1/2 in most lists I play. 

I run 2 in my ravenwing list which serves me well. If you advance one a -1, T6 3+, 4++ flyer requires a lot of work to kill

[Basteala]

 

As per the codex (unless I'm missing something?) shouldn't it only be 160 points?

 

You are missing chapter approved points updates.

 

 

Am I? Dark Angels came out after chapter approved. Chapter approved points changes were accounted for in the DA Codex (ex: Razorback now costs 70 pts, and TLAC is 44). Hurricane bolters so far as I know are 10 points per, and the Dark Talon is 140 in the codex, and absent in the Chapter Approved.

 

Edit: Oh, you mean updates on CA Approved. I I thought you meant updates from CA Approved. Well that sucks.

[JR-Jack]

I'm currently painting my third Dark Talon because I think that's a useful option to have even at 200 points each.

 

The Hurricane Bolters rapid firing into non-flying infantry with a 2+ (rerollable if in range of Sammael and rerolling 1s to wound if you've kept the Talonmaster close as well) is really good at clearing infantry (and having Sammael and the Talonmaster using twin assault cannons and heavy bolters as well helps).

 

The Rift Cannon can be really powerful against tanks and similar heavier gear. However, I find it quite random in output. Part of my motivation for normally taking more than one is to offset the risk that it just misses! If you have a couple there's a good chance that one will do well for you each turn they survive though so well worth it.

 

So I do think it is worth it and certainly think you can find a place for two in a 2000pt army (and I'll try the third when I've painted it!)

[Nordwulf77]

 

 

As per the codex (unless I'm missing something?) shouldn't it only be 160 points?

 

You are missing chapter approved points updates.

 

 

Am I? Dark Angels came out after chapter approved. Chapter approved points changes were accounted for in the DA Codex (ex: Razorback now costs 70 pts, and TLAC is 44). Hurricane bolters so far as I know are 10 points per, and the Dark Talon is 140 in the codex, and absent in the Chapter Approved.

 

Edit: Oh, you mean updates on CA Approved. I I thought you meant updates from CA Approved. Well that sucks.

 

Actually the points were adjusted in the Big FAQ in April. https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/warhammer_40000_The_Big_FAQ_1_2018_en.pdf 

[JJD]

They can’t seem to make their minds up on the Dark Talon.

 

It was 180 in the index then reduced in the codex to 160.

 

Then someone took a list with 6 Dark Talons to a major tournament I think it was the LVO and finished top 8.

 

It was then bumped up to 200 in the big FAQ.

[STTAB]

I was about to push the button on 3 when the big FAQ came out. They were 180 in the index, 160 in the codex and now 200.

 

I've just got 2 second hand (looking for 3rd) and am working on a list that focuses on debuff to hit. At 200 they are a bit too much so you as a standalone unit really have to leverage with Sammael (keeps them shooting ok as they degrade), talonmaster, Darkshroud and librarian (mind wipe and aversion). I'm even putting Njal in the list as the HQ for my DA outrider since he has a -1 spell (or can output 2d3 mortal wounds) and lion and wolf stratagem helps mind wipe go off with the +1 leadership.

 

Idea is to debuff the big scary thing so it can't hit :cuss and come back to it later.

 

Slight problem is that their +1 to hit is non fly targets which is a problem against a lot of Eldar/Harlequins/Dark Eldar builds. Have been toying with the idea of 2 dark talon and one stormraven. Because of this.

[Hantheman]

I was about to push the button on 3 when the big FAQ came out. They were 180 in the index, 160 in the codex and now 200.

 

I've just got 2 second hand (looking for 3rd) and am working on a list that focuses on debuff to hit. At 200 they are a bit too much so you as a standalone unit really have to leverage with Sammael (keeps them shooting ok as they degrade), talonmaster, Darkshroud and librarian (mind wipe and aversion). I'm even putting Njal in the list as the HQ for my DA outrider since he has a -1 spell (or can output 2d3 mortal wounds) and lion and wolf stratagem helps mind wipe go off with the +1 leadership.

 

Idea is to debuff the big scary thing so it can't hit and come back to it later.

 

Slight problem is that their +1 to hit is non fly targets which is a problem against a lot of Eldar/Harlequins/Dark Eldar builds. Have been toying with the idea of 2 dark talon and one stormraven. Because of this.

 

So run it an adeptus astartes outrider? That's really smart... I may be stealing that.

 

I agree completely with your assessment. Something I've been noticing with my successful lists is having split threats + a debuff. I wiped the Tau out recently with my ravenwing (a competitive Tau list as well who are a stronger army than ours) thanks to two dark talons and a black knight gang. The -1s and aversion meant he had to focus on one threat per turn really, allowing the other two to get in his face.

[domsto]

I think the 200p for the Dark Talon are little bit to much. Every time i played one they were disappointing. for the original cost of 160p they were a nice little Flyer to annoy your Enemy but nothing more. Considering that you have to play a darkshroud with them to survive Turn 1(Only T6) means that's a lot of points and effort for a flyer which in most cases won't make the Points back.

[STTAB]

Also the adeptus Astartes outrider lets me take a SW charachter and 3rd flyer and not take an air wing since I always keep 1 auxillary detachment for a Culexus. Never leave home without one. Drives Eldar players insane and will help the debugged go off.

 

200 is too much for a stand alone dark talon. The synergy of the dark shroud, sammael and talonmaster seems to be priced into the hike. The rule of 3 and back to 180 points should have done it.

 

I see the dark shroud as ablative wounds for the dark talons since it should be targeted first, unless you have some awesome LOS blocking terrain.

[FarFromSam]

I wonder what goes on in the designer's head sometimes.

"Hey at 180, the dark talon seems a little underwhelming for general use. Im going to put it at 160. It seems like a sweet spot, and will give DA a needed unique and useable choice."

 

-one tournament abuse list later. -

 

"Okay, so, the 20 point cost reduction was just used in a wildly unfluffy list... hmm how should we handle this? We could get rid of these wonky detachments. What army would ever lend out 3 hqs or 3 flyers to another? We might consider putting a cap on units other than troops. We could admit that there are players who will always find a way to break the system and let the majority of Dark Angel players continue to use a fun unit...

 

Nah, let's raise its points back to 180... :cuss it 200, no one makes me look foolish but me."

[Hantheman]

Yeah GW balance ain't great. They've created a problem they can't deal with yet- soup. Ah well.

 

But Dark Talon's are definitely very viable at 200 points. I play a lot of ITC missions and they are almost a guaranteed 1 kill a turn. 

[Basteala]

Yeah GW balance ain't great. They've created a problem they can't deal with yet- soup. Ah well.

 

But Dark Talon's are definitely very viable at 200 points. I play a lot of ITC missions and they are almost a guaranteed 1 kill a turn. 

 

I mean the easiest solution to Soup in their current system would be to simply forbid Detachments (other than Auxiliary) for armies that don't share the same army as your Warlord.

[domsto]

I wonder what goes on in the designer's head sometimes.

"Hey at 180, the dark talon seems a little underwhelming for general use. Im going to put it at 160. It seems like a sweet spot, and will give DA a needed unique and useable choice."

 

-one tournament abuse list later. -

 

"Okay, so, the 20 point cost reduction was just used in a wildly unfluffy list... hmm how should we handle this? We could get rid of these wonky detachments. What army would ever lend out 3 hqs or 3 flyers to another? We might consider putting a cap on units other than troops. We could admit that there are players who will always find a way to break the system and let the majority of Dark Angel players continue to use a fun unit...

 

Nah, let's raise its points back to 180... :cuss it 200, no one makes me look foolish but me."

Sad but true

Not only for the Dark Talon

[Hantheman]

Another game and again it performed well for me even in unfavourable position vs Dark Eldar.

 

Got a kill per turn by itself, drew a lot of fire. It’s mobility cannot be ignored.

[Skorp]

I only hear good things about the dark talon. Great movement, -1 from hard to hit makes it surprisingly survivable for T6, people will want to target and underperform or with a darkshroud at -2 they wont even want to target it. +1 to hit ground units. 4++ when advanced (good choice for speed of the raven). Potential mortal wounds from both the bomb and the rift cannon.

 

Consider that it will deal well with hordes and do well as a character sniper able to get closest to a character and deal mortal wounds all in one. When the rift cannon converts its worth using a CP to maximize on D3 mortal wounds.

 

6 dark talons was at Adepticon, and im sure we all curse him and GWs overreaction. If I had a second one I would take 2 in a ravenwing list. I generally always bring 1 at 2000 points.

 

I compeletly agree 180 should have been correct. But still worth it for DA, as its one of the better and also unique units in the book.

[ValourousHeart]

Darkshroud can cover them for 1-2 turn even if you didnt start.

This claim needs a clarification.

If you are playing on a themed board (like this) you will have trouble keeping a dark talon and a dark shroud close to each other for more than 1 or 2 turns.

(Warhammer Citadel 2018)

If on the other hand, you playing on a typical tournament table (like this) you should have no trouble keeping a dark talon and a dark shroud next to each other for the entire game.

(Adepticon 2011)

Simply put, the dark talon and the dark shroud start within 6 inches of each other. The dark shroud moves 12 inches in a straight line in any direction that the dark talon can turn to face, but the path can not have the dark shroud cross under the dark talon. The dark talon then turns and moves over the dark shroud and ends on the opposite side that it started from. So if the dark talon was on the right side of the dark shroud when the turn started, after they move it would need to be on the left side. Those trig angles would mean that the dark shroud moved 12 inches, the dark talon would move 20-22 inches, and the vehicles would start and end their move within 6 inches of each other. You should be able to zig-zag around the board the entire game. You can advance the dark shroud and still keep the dark talon in range. You can not advance the dark talon and keep up this formation.

4++ when advanced (good choice for speed of the raven).

Speed of the Raven is a great strategem for Black Knights as it allows them to get to CC faster. Advancing is also great for units like the dark shroud because it gives it more protection, allows it to keep up with the faster Ravenwing units, and the unit doesn't have a strong offensive weapon. Advancing and/or Speed of the Raven is a terrible strategem for dedicated shooting units like the dark talon and land speeders.

Having to rely on your limited pool of command points to do what your units are supposed to do on their own while pushing yourself closer to close combat with units who have no business in close combat seems like a poorly thought out plan. And not spending the command point means that you just voluntarily chose to skip a shooting phase with a unit whose sole purpose is to shoot, again not a great plan.

It is especially silly with a unit that is already moving 20-40 inches without having to advance, and whose advance move is another 20 inches. If you can't find a target within 44 inches (or even 64 inches) of your dark talon at the start of the turn, you have probably already tabled your opponent. All those extra 20 inches and command point will do is allow you to troll the table next to you.

Additionally moving that far limits the trajectories you can move and increases the risk that you will box yourself into a corner where you are forced to fly off the board.

[Berzul]

Well, you advance more for the 4++ than the extra 20" in movement anyway

[CyberC1]

Well, you advance more for the 4++ than the extra 20" in movement anyway

 

Agreed - this is about survivability rather than moving 20" more.   I find the 4+ makes a difference in keeping the dark talon around as a "distraction carnifex" 

[ValourousHeart]

 

Well, you advance more for the 4++ than the extra 20" in movement anyway

 

Agreed - this is about survivability rather than moving 20" more.   I find the 4+ makes a difference in keeping the dark talon around as a "distraction carnifex" 

 

I don't play the command point battery list, so I'm having to make do with 4-5 CP.  That definitely plays a big role in how I use command points.  And because of that I don't feel justified in having a single unit lay claim to all of my command points before the game starts.  That said if I had enough command points that my dark talon could get one a turn and still have a handful left for opportunity plays then I might use that tactic.