My gaming community is dying

[Guest]

Last year we had about 10-13 people that played the game. 8th Index hit and nothing really changed we had a couple more people join that were old vets coming back. I don't want to point the finger but after the Custodes/IK codex came out, 2 played Custodes, 1 played pure IK, and 1 played IK/IG. Before it was gentleman's agreement to not use our Mortarion or Magnus option, which isn't an option when someone whole army is LoW's.

 

So now I am sitting here because half the people don't want to play with the other half. To be fair though the Custodes/IK just steam roll the other players a supermajority of the time. Yes it's not about winning but when you have lose after lose I can see people getting demoralized. One of the old vets, Iron Hands, got upset about 8th Ed and just left.

 

The old leader of the group, who played Orks, tried to make rules to try and even out the factions which was heavilly opposed by one side of the group. Since then he has left and hasn't showed up for like 3 months. So I don't know how to proceed about getting the group together and play games again.

[Bryan Blaire]

Let the group split, and if you are part of both, then suggest alternate nights to them to play so that they don't have to play against each other.

 

Whatever happens, don't try to force something though.

[Guest]

I would agree but it's been 2 months since we played and we only play twice a month minus random pick up games. The last game I played was 3 months ago when I wanted try my DG for the first time and a simple 1k point game. The guy brought a Valiant and the mini knights. I only tied because it was a point game and he complained about Disgustingly Resilient being OP.

[shandwen]

I would agree but it's been 2 months since we played and we only play twice a month minus random pick up games. The last game I played was 3 months ago when I wanted try my DG for the first time and a simple 1k point game. The guy brought a Valiant and the mini knights. I only tied because it was a point game and he complained about Disgustingly Resilient being OP.

Knights are great models... just not too much fun to play against. If players are too focused on curb-stomping their "friends" the group will only go ultra-competitive (expensive and not fun) or die. I'd suggest starting a new group with the softer side, and it may be rough going as splits in groups always cause drama down the line.

[Prot]

All gaming metas have to be self policing to some degree.

 

I play AdMech which is fairly terrible... but then Knights came out and I pulled AdMech out. Long story short I made a conscious decision to shelve the big Knights (Castellan) because some people love their Orks and what not.

 

I had to do this with that specific group. If I didn’t, I’d end up in a situation similar to yours.

 

Another group I play in wouldn’t care about the Knights, but they change too much more Harlies with melta type pistols everywhere. Not fun either.

 

If we don’t police ourselves you end up in one of those two situations in my opinion: hyper competitive escalation, or people packing up

[Bryan Blaire]

Make it clear what you will and won't play against, and your reasons why (although it really shouldn't need to be more than "It's not fun for me to play against only Lords of War, it's not how I see 40K" or some such like that), and if need be, arrange to play against the less LoW focused folks ahead of time - specifically show that your group doesn't have to be dominated by LoWs.

[Tyriks]

All gaming metas have to be self policing to some degree.

I play AdMech which is fairly terrible... but then Knights came out and I pulled AdMech out. Long story short I made a conscious decision to shelve the big Knights (Castellan) because some people love their Orks and what not.

I had to do this with that specific group. If I didn’t, I’d end up in a situation similar to yours.

Another group I play in wouldn’t care about the Knights, but they change too much more Harlies with melta type pistols everywhere. Not fun either.

If we don’t police ourselves you end up in one of those two situations in my opinion: hyper competitive escalation, or people packing up

I can't agree with this more. I own 5 knights plus Armigers, I love the models and I love playing them. That said, I never field more than one without telling my opponent, and even then I brought a full knight army only one time and made sure my opponent was ok with it. I wouldn't want someone springing it on me so I didn't want to do the same.

 

We used to have about twice as many people in our group as we do but the half we "lost" were a lot like the guys you're having trouble with. They would bring super cheesy crap that wasn't fun for anyone and if they happened to do poorly they complained about it for weeks or months afterwards. It was lose-lose. One guy played Ynarri in 7th and actually complained about me bringing a War Convocation just because he couldn't table it. We just stopped playing with those guys. None of us regrets it. Sure, we don't have a ton of variety in our group now (only 3 of us reliably show up right now), but I'd rather have fun fighting the same 4-5 armies than dread the games I have scheduled.

[Kinstryfe]

We have a sort of agreement in my local community that when setting up a game to at least ask how competitive you want to be. If people are tourney training, anything goes. If they just want to have fun, we tend to say how hard we'll be going. Luckily there are enough players though that people tend to pair off by what they like. Other times we set the format. No knights or, like tonight's game, Knights required. Everyone brought a knight for a 2v2 battle of 1500pts each. We even have multiple stores within range for people to play in and they each seem to have their own cliques and play styles.

 

Basically though, you need people who are like minded for a group to work. Nobody likes playing *that guy* long term, and you may be someone's *that guy* without even realizing it. In the end, you can't really push it, and you shouldn't feel responsible for forcing people to have fun. Instead, as has been recommended, branch off with the people who play how you do. If the others complain, just explain that you guys prefer playing in a different style than them. Hopefully you'll attract more players with a compatible style to you.

[Azekai]

I have a guy in my local meta who really likes using his gorgeous knights. I definitely felt pressured to buy my own, and now I have 4 knights that I only use against other knights/godzilla lists. I feel like GW is laughing all the way to the bank as the game suffers under the weird skew issues caused by LoW. 

Giant stompy models can be a ton of fun, but they shouldn't be used as a way of guaranteeing a win against blindsided, inexperienced opponents. Nobody gets tabled and looks to recreate that experience. They will find a way to avoid it, either by making a better list, or, if that isn't possible, they may avoid the game altogether.

If people feel like they have no way of winning a game, they will absolutely stop playing (and that goes for basically everything, not just 40k).

[MARK0SIAN]

Just chat with people about what your expectations are for the match beforehand, it usually helps make sure everyone has a better game.

 

I would say though, playing devils advocate, that Knights (and to a lesser extent Custodes) are both codexes with quite limited options. It’s hard to build really varied lists with them. What I’m saying is the guy might not be trying to cheese their way to victory, it’s just he likes playing knights (same way you all like your particular armies) and doesn’t really have much choice about what he brings to the game. In your 1K game, it’s pretty limited what knight force you can put together for those points, it’s either 2 knights or 1 knight and some armigers, could be he went with the armigers as he thought it would be fairer.

 

Perhaps in future ask him to play an allied force with knights and something else for variety.

[Azaiel]

Heres an crazy idea:

 

Let people switch armies with one another. Maybe make it a 4-player match up 1000-1500 pts each. Everyone brings their models and armylists. If someone is not a good sport and deliberately "nerf" their list before the switch, it would be quite obvious to the rest of you.

Have knights and custodes players be on both teams  with an army from another faction. So that would be 4 players with IK and Custodes on both sides plus whatever other army you bring. People get to play an army they have never played but still see their own minis on the table. Maybe it will give your group some insight in how an opposing army works and how it feels to go up against them.

[Captain Idaho]

As much as internet wisdom likes to pretend there's not many players who are power players taking the cheesiest lists, gaming groups always have plenty of those guys.

 

Sooner or later you just got to refuse to play them. Don't be rude about it but just tell people straight "nah mate. Don't enjoy playing that army."

[Sete]

Haven't played for over a year and a half. It's a cheese festival around here

[Canadian_F_H]

Yeah. I don't like going to my FLGS to play. It's to crowded and loud on a busy night. When 2 dozen blokes bring 3k each to cram into 6 4x8 tables and they all start to get louder and louder to be heard at their table over the din of the other tables... It's just to much to concentrate and enjoy the game for me...

 

I came super early and played a few pickup 500 point games with guys who were gonna be there early anyways.

 

My brother and a few friends who have taken an interest and also don't want to get into such a crowded setting are going to focus on playing at home and doing the more "beer and pretzels" approach... Using heavily houseruled versions of 7th edition 40k and 8th edition WFB... My bro and I have such rediculous collections that it's literally nothing to bring in a few other players and give them command of a sizable detachment for a side game or in a 2v2 match. Even if we don't have every army. Some of our armies are in excess of 4k to 5k points

 

 

actually bringing a subordinate is almost mandatory for games above 3k to finish in an evening I think... "you take everything on this flank and here are your sun objectives, here is how and what I have that will support you and here is how it will help us win overall and go"

[Rik Lightstar]

Break it up with something more narrative based like Necromunda, or something with a tighter ruleset such as KillTeam or ShadeSpire..

 

Rik

[TheFinisher4Ever]

I think you just need to take control of the group. You've got to set up events on different days so that the players can come to the events they want to and skip the others. Run an ITC tournament one weeked followed by a no-LoW Highlander tournament the following week. Alternate between competitive and narrative events. This will keep all your players involved. If everyone is just meeting up for pickup games, they may have wildly different expectations. That's why you set up the expectations up front.

[Guest]

So I read l your comments and thank you for advice.

 

I think my plan of action is to simply let the group break up. Those who play "those armies" will not budge from them. I know they have different armies from 7th, but they have decided to stick to them despite the public distaste for them. Those that still play friendly games I will probably just game with still but new time/location.

 

I have tried games like Necromunda, even getting 3 gangs and terrain painted, just to be told by all but one they weren't interested. Most simply just want to play their army because they only get to play a couple games a month.

 

As for taking control of the group, I just don't have the energy or time. I have more important things than to try and patrol a couple guys that are breaking up a group. My only worry is now that IK have left such a bad taste I will never be able to make a knight household+house guard to play with. I really hope GW finds a way to balance the armies a bit.

[Kilofix]

Organize some smaller games - kill team, or just 500 points no LoW.

[Brother Christopher]

With all the "exciting" new releases it is easy to forget that situations such as the one described in the initial post are isolated cases. The game is unfortunately poorly designed as a game, the persisting lack of balance caused by poor design choices (and dare I say an unhealthy desire to profit) creates space for easy abuse of mechanics. Introduction of super-heavy and primarch class units that are available in any game without mechanical restrictions only makes things worse. In consequence, gaming communities have to rely more on gentlemen's agreements than the actual game mechanics to balance things out and make the game enjoyable. This in turn is flawed and somewhat pathetic since it shows that the balancing mechanics of the game do not work.

 

Under the circumstances, you can (overcome the bad taste and) adapt and get yourself a currently top-tier army and have more balanced and fun matches with fewer models (though, you don't know how good your new and expensive models will be in a couple of months), make an effort to keep the group together and propose some restrictions for your matches or let events unfold.

 

If  you don't find the gaming experience under the circumstances enjoyable, you can always take a break and focus on other aspects of the hobby, like painting or modelling. That's what I'm doing now; although, I take issue with the 'system' as a whole, not my gaming community.

[Sete]

Its a great idea, but then I hear, oh but I want to use my knights/nagash, not interested on small games. hence no fun for me.

[Guest]

With all the "exciting" new releases it is easy to forget that situations such as the one described in the initial post are isolated cases. The game is unfortunately poorly designed as a game, the persisting lack of balance caused by poor design choices (and dare I say an unhealthy desire to profit) creates space for easy abuse of mechanics. Introduction of super-heavy and primarch class units that are available in any game without mechanical restrictions only makes things worse. In consequence, gaming communities have to rely more on gentlemen's agreements than the actual game mechanics to balance things out and make the game enjoyable. This in turn is flawed and somewhat pathetic since it shows that the balancing mechanics of the game do not work.

 

Under the circumstances, you can (overcome the bad taste and) adapt and get yourself a currently top-tier army and have more balanced and fun matches with fewer models (though, you don't know how good your new and expensive models will be in a couple of months), make an effort to keep the group together and propose some restrictions for your matches or let events unfold.

 

If  you don't find the gaming experience under the circumstances enjoyable, you can always take a break and focus on other aspects of the hobby, like painting or modelling. That's what I'm doing now; although, I take issue with the 'system' as a whole, not my gaming community.

I sure do hope it is isolated to only my group. Its a pretty awful feeling watching what used to be a pretty relax group degrade into what it is now. We don't have many people and to see a few decide to be selfish/competitive/whatever really tore us apart. Here is to hoping some of those that left do come back.

[Ishagu]

I find it odd, personally, that players at your local group are completely unable to moderate their lists in the spirit of fostering a good community.

 

Perhaps some maturity is needed?

 

If your gaming group consists of multiple players that don't understand enjoyment is a two way street then maybe it should be allowed to wilt away. Even a pure Knight army can easily be moderated by simply agreeing not to use strategems on the Knights, just as an example.

[Tyriks]

I find it odd, personally, that players at your local group are completely unable to moderate their lists in the spirit of fostering a good community.

Perhaps some maturity is needed?

If your gaming group consists of multiple players that don't understand enjoyment is a two way street then maybe it should be allowed to wilt away. Even a pure Knight army can easily be moderated by simply agreeing not to use strategems on the Knights, just as an example.

I don't find it surprising. I've always known people who only enjoy the game if they're winning, preferably in ways where it's very one sided. One of the guys we play with was that way at first but has gotten a lot better, but there are 4-5 I've known who never did and eventually just had to stop playing them. If you win they complain about how horrible the game is and mope about it for a while, but if you lose they rub it in forever.

 

It doesn't help that there are not many places to meet players in my area. One LGS seems to cater to people like that so I avoid it and the other is great but usually a 40 minute drive so I don't have time to go there as much. That made it hard to cut people from the group but, as I said, it was worth it. Now I host every other week and we all actually enjoy it.

[Canadian_F_H]

I was shocked when I came back to the hobby in the midst of 7th as the wave of formations ramped up...

 

In 3rd edition there were weird rules like "you can only take this character in a game of 2000pts or more"

 

Perhaps that's the problem. Certain things are just to available in matched play. Perhaps LOW should have only been available 1 per army up to 2kpts +1 in each 1kpt bracket above that.

 

And the force org chart has always been a bit flawed. Perhaps nobody should have been able to take more elites/FA/HS than they have troop units? Most armies aren't as unbalanced if players choose to build more realistic looking armies (more troops than specialists)

 

The above vaguely reminds me of the old restrictions from WFB 5th Ed which was percentage of points. So adaptably...

 

HQ < 25%

Troops > 25%

Fast < troops

HS < troops

Elites < troops

 

But none of those are rules so, folks love their rules...

[Trevak Dal]

I'm in an ackward spot because my friends who got me into the hobby weren't interested in 8th, and work days/have kids and all. And I don't know what exactly, but I find myself making excuses to not go out to either of the stores near me to play.

 

Heck I tend to do that if there is a family event planned too.

 

I think where my Mom smoked pot and drank as an escapist thing, mine is just dicking around in videogames. For as much as I play them I should be some kind of expert but I'm still pretty bad at them. Patrols in Destiny are what I play the most. Just mindlessly slogging away.

 

Its weird being 35 and still feeling socially ackward.