Are the LotD always successful?

[Lord Kallozar]

Hey another LotD topic by me I know but I’m just being curious with it, so please humour me.

 

Every time I read or hear about something to do with the LotD intervening in a skirmish it always ends up with a victory for the imperium. The Damned come along and kill off everyone and save the day... next story - the damned come along and kill everyone and save the day... and so on and so forth. I have never even read anything where a single Damned Legionnaire even gets killed?

 

So my question is, whenever the damned show up is basically an auto win? Surely they cannot be THAT successful because that wouldn’t make for good drama all the time, plus, why don’t they just appear in every single battle that’s ever taken place to save the day and win for the imperium if that’s the case? Cheers!

[Brother Tyler]

The lore for the Legion of the Damned is that their dead/injured disappear along with the rest of the legionnaires at the end of the battle.

 

Yes, the lore for the Legion of the Damned has always been that their intervention saves the day for the forces of the Imperium.

 

They don't appear anywhere and everywhere because they're not needed anywhere and everywhere and because the Legion of the Damned can't be anywhere and everywhere. In the old lore, they were limited to less than 200 legionnaires and a single space vessel (formerly known as the Absolute). And their numbers were dwindling as the affliction they suffered and combat losses caused further attrition. Current lore doesn't tell us what their exact limitations are, whether they remain the same as originally or if those limitations have changed with the evolutions to the lore.

[Xisor]

Given the nature of LotD as... catastrophe-chasers, the question I suppose is:

 

What evidence could possibly be left if they intervene and fail?

 

How could anyone outside of the event verify it?

 

Similarly, how often do the Salamanders/Fire Lords/Fire Angels/Mortifactors/etc show up in poorly-lit conditions and get mistaken for (and consequently officially reported as a sighting of) the Legion of the Damned?

 

Pretty tantalising, eh?

[Captain Idaho]

When you think about it, it makes sense for their intervention to always be victories. After all, they turn up when the hour is darkest, so in theory that means when the Imperium loses there are no survivors anyway go verify their attendance...

[Lord Kallozar]

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

[Kinstryfe]

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

It all sort of depends what they actually are, and what answer that leads to. Are they warp infused mutated Marines who show up in the nick of time? Then they likely just didn't make it to those locations in time or didn't know they'd be needed. Are they psychic projections of the souls of dead marines? Then maybe there wasn't enough psychic energy or whatnot around for them to manifest there, or the Cadian pylons were interfering, or the chaos Marines had some sort of warp barrier in place.

 

There's also the possibility that they operate on some sort of heightened level of awareness that gives them insight into things that we wouldn't be aware of. Maybe in all the potential futures out there Chaos wins in 87% of scenarios where Cadia wasn't destroyed, so they just let it happen purposely? There's a ton of fun reasons why they may only act selectively.

 

I also love Xisor's comment. There are (at least) 1000 Chapters out there, and how many truly unique colors? I bet most of the time things get misidentified as whatever the most popular or known chapters are in an area of space.

[Captain Idaho]

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

Well aren't all the battles? ;)

[Jolemai]

I wonder if their travel is restricted to the whims of the warp like Imperial vessels are?

 

For example, the BA forces at Cadia couldn't/didn't make it back to assist on Baal during the recent Tyranid "incursion", but the LotD were present. Perhaps they were elsewhere prior but couldn't make it to Cadia in time and thus turned to Baal?

 

Alternatively, we don't know their motives. Perhaps saving Baal was more important?

[Brother Captain Ed]

The LotD make the most sense if you accept that they, 1.) never were actual space marines or, 2.) that they are psychic bits of space marines, and that whichever you prefer, they are still some sort of Warpy/Divine/psychic manifestation.

 

I know lots of folks don't like this, and some older fluff says it's not so, but it makes the most sense....especially after Master of Mankind.

[Xisor]

A lot of this can be waved away if one supposes that GW haven't yet FAQ'd the Legion of the Damned's keywords to include 'DAEMON', but that they should.

 

*chinscratch*

[Lucien Eilam]

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

That’s not what they do. They’re not really about sector-spanning conflicts. Ultimately, they’re still just Tactical Marines. The first criterion for an appearance would probably have to be that an unexpected handful of extra-tough Tactical Squads could make a difference to the outcome. They couldn’t have prevented Cadia.

 

Think small actions with few witnesses but outsized, perhaps unforeseen consequences. They show up when beleaguered forces are preparing to die to the last man.

 

If they were at Cadia, they’d be covering the evacuation the last few stragglers from a command company, so the regimental standard survives to inspire the men at a key battle. Or saving an Apothecary so the gene-seed he’s carrying will rebuild a chapter. Or ensuring that the sole survivor of a desperate last stand is the junior officer who goes on to be a legendary general.

 

They’re rarely the hurricane, but they give a lot of butterflies a chance to flap their wings.

[Xisor]

Well, it turns out that I am a very great fool.

 

Strictly speaking, the Legion of the Damned did intervene at Cadia...

 

But Throne of Terra, I wish that section of lore were excised from reality. Cadia falling because the Black Crusade broke though is fine (well, y'know), but some of the specific pieces are very... dissatisfying.

 

It contains such wonders as (see page 23, TGSI: The Fall of Cadia):

 

"As Holy Terra consumed Phalanx's ravaged flesh, the marine virus' hold was shattered. Seizing opportunity, Garadon set Phalanx onto a blind heading, hurling the fortress adrift into the tides of the Immaterium. Whatever the fortress' fate, it would not be wielded as a weapon by the Ruinous Powers."

 

Now, perhaps this was intended to imply cosmic foolishness on the part of 3rd Captain Tor Garadon of the Imperial Fists, but it reads to me as if it casts that aspersion unintentionally.

 

Nevertheless, we proceed...

 

Still on page 23:

"But not all forces within the unpredictable Immaterium bend their knee to the dark designs of Chaos. As Be'lakor at last deigned to join the battle, one such faction drew night. Hellfire found itself contested by the flames of sacrifice as the spectral battle-brothers of the Legion of the Damned entered the fray.

 

...

 

Oddly, the Legion of the Damned had not vanished at battle's close, as was usually their won't. Instead, they stood silent vigil in the Chamber of Storms, unmoving and unspeaking. Save for Garadon himself, all avoided that hallowed place, discomforted by the grim spectres whose presence seemed to chill the air even as fire crackled across their armour. But not even Garadon could bring himself to question the cadaverous sergeant who stood at the Legion's head. That they were waiting for something seemed obvious, but what?

 

....

 

No sooner had Phalanx;s heading altered towards Terra once more than Librarians intercepted a garbled and desperately brief distress hymnal. Cadia called for aid. Trevaux and Furgan argued that neither Phalanx nor its crew were in any condition to respond, but Garadon overruled all objections. A sword sheathed, he argued, served no one. Phalanx's first duty was not to itself, but to the Imperium, and all present knew Cadia's importance. The decision made, Phalanx's aged plasma drives fired anew, ploughing a new furrow through the Immaterium. Only when the tremors of stressed metal faded away did Garadon's eye fall across a shadowed corner of the fortress' command sanctum. Fire flickered in the darkness, and the Legion's sergeant offered what might have been a brief nod, or might equally have belonged entirely to Garadon's imagination."

 

But that's at Terra, I hear you say - they only declare intent to go to Cadia!

 

Page 49:

"In orbit [of Cadia], the weapons batteries of the battle-fortress Phalanx rumbled to life. Already the Black Fleet was reacting to the presence in its midst, but Phalanx's ageing shield generators held firm beneath broadside after broadside. Captain Garadon didn't care. In recent days he'd fought alongside the spectral Legion of the Damned. He'd torn the heart out of his own sacred charge to prevent it falling into the hands of the foe. And he'd witnessed a crippled Imperial Navy transport dock with Phalanx's forecastle amidst the tumult of the Warp. So many things he'd been sure he'd never seen. So many events he'd never understand. But this? Phalanx along against the Black Fleet? This was retribution long overdue. But where was the Legion of the Damned? As Phalanx had entered real space they'd faded to nothing, as silent in departure as arrival."

 

And again on page 58:

"When the Despoiler's hordes came again - and Creed was certain that they would, if only because the abyssal spectres of the Legion of the Damned stood silent sentry out on the Elysion pylon fields - the defiance of Cadia would continue elsewhere, if it did so at all."

 

I didn't catch mention of them in the remainder of the book, but it nevertheless abundantly clear that 'the Emperor's daemons' are all clustered at Cadia.

 

Be they Legion of the Damned, Living Saints... they're all there! It's a party not to be missed out on.

[Race Bannon]

In short: yes. 

 

I'm okay with that because the devil daemon is in the details.  

 

^_^

[Volt]

 

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

That’s not what they do. They’re not really about sector-spanning conflicts. Ultimately, they’re still just Tactical Marines. The first criterion for an appearance would probably have to be that an unexpected handful of extra-tough Tactical Squads could make a difference to the outcome. They couldn’t have prevented Cadia.

 

Think small actions with few witnesses but outsized, perhaps unforeseen consequences. They show up when beleaguered forces are preparing to die to the last man.

 

If they were at Cadia, they’d be covering the evacuation the last few stragglers from a command company, so the regimental standard survives to inspire the men at a key battle. Or saving an Apothecary so the gene-seed he’s carrying will rebuild a chapter. Or ensuring that the sole survivor of a desperate last stand is the junior officer who goes on to be a legendary general.

 

They’re rarely the hurricane, but they give a lot of butterflies a chance to flap their wings.

 

They can absolutely be the hurricane when they want to. The Legion wiped out the entire Cholercaust blood crusade on Certus Minor in a matter of hours, leaving the traitors, cultists, and daemons piled so high that you could literally swim through the corpses like a mass grave covering the entire ground. 

[SickSix]

I am just trying to get my head around this concept though... if the LotD appear at the hour of need then where were they during any of Abby’s black crusades? Where were they during the fall of Cadia? Where were they when the Iron Warriors overran hydra cordatus? Do you see what I mean? These were significant events.

It's already beem mentioned, bit did you read Fall of Cadia? They were there.

 

Have you read the book, 'Legion of the Damned'?

 

They are not an Army. They show in times of great need when small Imperial forces are about to get wiped.

 

And they may ultimately 'save the day' but that doesn't mean everyone was saved.

 

And again, if they failed how would you know? There would be zero witnesses.