Second Game in China

[Morticon]

Played my second game here - again against another member!! (OrbOfAntioch, I think he said his handle was)

Was an absolutely awesome game. 

I was up against 4 knights- 100 wounds of T8, 3+, 5++ :/ 

He was rocking:

 

Valiant -(WL) -  Harpoon, Deflagg Cannon, Missile thingy, and some other guns.

2x Wardens (i think)  - Gatling Cannon + Thermo Cannon

1x Warden - Gatling Cannon + Battle Cannon

 

Command points paid for extra relic and extra WL trait, I think.  

One unit had extra hits on 6s, other had extra mortal wounds on 6's - both for gatling cannons. 

 

 

_________ 

I rocked the same list as last time. 

Basically, i needed first, or it would be over. 


My deployment this time round was a touch different, and I deployed the DC in cover, basically giving myself more options on the board, and also more targets for my enemy to take the heat off of my poor Sicaran.  I almost never use DC this way, but figured Id need the drop on the enemy asap and it was balls to the wall - so, I fully intended using forlorn fury. 


His knights were deployed relatively tightly, the leader and  one other on my left of center, with 2 others right of center.

(We got the long board edge deployment, with the slightly triangular shape (can never remember the new names).)

He obviously got a +1 to roll, and then proceeded to roll a 6 <_< 

I went straight to the seize and....

 

huzzah!!! 6 !!! 

My first seize in around 10 games. 

DC free-moved forward, opting for the knights on the right. And Wings'ed my Priest to support the charge (meaning wounds on 2s). 

This is where i made my first blunder.  I blundered in a few ways this game - most of which came from me having 0 experience with Knights. 

 

My thinking was to leave the Captain behind for the next round of attacks and to use his buff for the Devs and the Mortar.  I think this was a HUGE waste of time on my part.  I should have sent him off as a sacrificial hero to go take down a knight, and reduce the overwatch capacity. 

Instead, the Priest, supported by mephy went out instead. 

My shooting for first turn was pretty good, but not good enough.  I got a knight down to 4 wounds  - but that was it :/  (and he failed about 70% of his 4++ saves). 

 

 

The charge phase hurt me.  I charged Mephy in first- hoping he would weather the storm.   I think, in retrospect, I should have charged the DC first- but it possibly wouldnt have mattered. Mephy went down cheaply to the ThermoCannon  :(  
Then, the DC charged, and he used "Staunch Allies" - to do the Tau-like ability - and considering this was from the knight that generated extra hits from 6s - it was overs. 

I lost both Mephy and the DC in the charge phase - neither of them attacking. 

I knew at this point it was all but overs.  Two lynchpin units wiped out without recourse.  

 

 

In his turn, he nuked the Sicaran, a Dev squad, the Mortar and the Priest. I narrowly escaped death from the Shieldbreaker Strat - which is just gross.  


In my second turn, I moved the scouts to shoot (and charge). 

My Inceptors came down, the VanVets down at the rear and then the Captain out to engage the leader

 

Shooting finished off the gimped knight. Inceptor shooting took another knight down by 10 wounds (although I lost 1 model, despite rerolls of 1)

I charged about 5 or 6 units in to try take wounds down.  (I also didnt know at this stage that infantry can simply be stepped over <_<  So i couldnt lock the knights) 

 

 

The first volley of attacks from the Captain took the warlord valiant down  all the way to 5 wounds.  The Vanvets were less stellar and I think the Warden was left with maybe 8? I forget. 


I had to use Honour the Chapter.  

Burning through 3 command points, and having an additional 2 from red rampage and an additional 1 from DC ability....i was left with 2 choices. Focus on one knight, or split. I HATE splitting attacks- even if statistically i have enough to do the damage.  

I opted for 4 attacks into the Warlord, and 3 attacks into the other.   I got only  2 wounds on his warlord - but he saved one.  damnit.  It lived. 

The other one I rolled hot and got 3 wounds!!  He rolls to save and BAMN - all three wound saves are 6s. ><; 

(This made up for his terrible 4++ saves in round 1 but man it hurt me)

My scouts plinked away at wounds all over- but they bore the brunt of the attacks from the knights. 

In his turn he waltzed out of combat shot up everything he could - which included my Captain who was on two wounds. 

The vanguard veterans managed to survive, and even got charged  (a mistake my opponent admitted to). 

The VVs eventually killed the warlord. 


By the time the 4th turn rolled round, i had little to nothing left.  I had killed 2 knights, one of which included his warlord. 

He had the 3rd on ONE wound....stubbornly refusing to die (despite heroic efforts from a Primaris Sarge!) and then the 4th knight on 18 wounds. 

BOttom of the fourth he tabled me. 

 

 

 

OVERVIEW: 

 

* SM still bad broken (as per multiple threads) - Armour saves mean nothing, really. 
* BA require and rely on CP to be effective. 
* Alpha still hurts - We need to have better terrain.  High/multistory LOS blocking. 

* Vanvets have, in EVERY game, proved themselves better than DC.  Their damage output is far less, but the fact they dont just fold over and die is miles and miles better.   6+ FNP is useless.  Especially for multi-wound shots.  Absolutely worthless ability.  

 

* Knights are sick.  I really like them.  I think they're well costed. Their strats are amazing. The snipe character with a killer missile with no Inv. save available is silly, though. 





 

[Lynnean]

Yikes, nasty list to play against! 
6+ save is indeed a bit underwhelming. But it's better then nothing!

[Panzer]

6+ save is indeed a bit underwhelming. But it's better then nothing!

 

I'd prefer saving a few points and not have it to be honest. ^^

[Charlo]

Nice report as always Mort.

 

Knights are one of this editions winners currently, they're super powerful and fun to play with excellent stratagems and rules overall. Definately can tell they are a later codex when GW has found it's feet with 8th and pushing the boat out more. As opposed to BA who do well as (at least I feel) SM+1 - Choppy Edition; but still have so many points costs based on a "best-case" potential rather than actual game performance, now made even worse since the Alpha nerfs stopping Captain Slamguinius doing his thang.

 

That said, it seems like what had you lose in this was merely a lack of intel on what Knights are capable of; given a rematch I know you'll be able to open up some tin cans with relative ease 

 

If you could change your list, what would you do? I'm guessing losing DC is step 1?

[Xenith]

Vanvets are more durable - is that due to storm shields? 

 

6+ save is indeed a bit underwhelming. But it's better then nothing!

 

It's better than nothing when it's free as a chapter tactic equivalent (Iron hands, Leviathan, one of the mars ones). When you have to pay for it...not great. 

[Lynnean]

Vanvets are more durable - is that due to storm shields? 

 

6+ save is indeed a bit underwhelming. But it's better then nothing!

 

It's better than nothing when it's free as a chapter tactic equivalent (Iron hands, Leviathan, one of the mars ones). When you have to pay for it...not great. 

Fair. 

[Charlo]

Vanvets are more durable - is that due to storm shields? 

 

6+ save is indeed a bit underwhelming. But it's better then nothing!

 

It's better than nothing when it's free as a chapter tactic equivalent (Iron hands, Leviathan, one of the mars ones). When you have to pay for it...not great. 

 

And even then... I know the IH all think it's pretty crapola.

[Xenith]

 

 

And even then... I know the IH all think it's pretty crapola.

 

Yes. Even for free, it's (a 1/6 chance) not something you can rely upon, and thus build a strategy around. 

[Morticon]

Nice report as always Mort.

 

That said, it seems like what had you lose in this was merely a lack of intel on what Knights are capable of; given a rematch I know you'll be able to open up some tin cans with relative ease 

 

If you could change your list, what would you do? I'm guessing losing DC is step 1?

 

Thanks for the support and the kind words.  I feel id have a fighting chance, to be honest.  I'd need first turn again though. And I think I wouldnt split any single solitary shot to a different knight. Absolutely everything would go into one knight, and then CapSmash would go into another 1 or 2, focussing on 1.  

 

In terms of list - i think i'd probably lose the DC in favour of another VanVet squad with identical load out.  

 

 

[keeblerartillery]

Have you thought about using Sang guard? Or do you feel they need too many buff units to be effective?

[Morticon]

Vanvets are more durable - is that due to storm shields? 

 

 

Yeah, i pay for 5/8 stormshields.  

 

I rock:

 

1x Hammer/Shield

1x Sword/Shield

3x Chainsword/Shield

3x Dual Chainsword

[Morticon]

Have you thought about using Sang guard? Or do you feel they need too many buff units to be effective?

 

 

There are a few people that rave about them.  8 of them come in at 100 points more than what I would pay for VanVet/DC squad and they beg for an Ancient. 

Id consider it, but Id have to rework it. 

 

The issue for me is that multi-damage guns with low AP are everywhere. 

 

They're just not worth it with how the game is designed currently.

 

This being said, the more I think about it, the more the "transhuman physiology" rule written in the "fixing marines" thread would literally just solve all issues in my mind.  Or 80% of them. 

[Dont-Be-Haten]

 

Have you thought about using Sang guard? Or do you feel they need too many buff units to be effective?

 

 

There are a few people that rave about them.  * of them come in at 100 points more than what I would pay for VanVet/DC squad and they beg for an Ancient. 

Id consider it, but Id have to rework it. 

 

The issue for me is that multi-damage guns with low AP are everywhere. 

 

They're just not worth it with how the game is designed currently.

 

This being said, the more I think about it, the more the "transhuman physiology" rule written in the "fixing marines" thread would literally just solve all issues in my mind.  Or 80% of them. 

 

+1. Need the ancient to take along side them. Luckily the damage output is actually on par with the DC when you combine him alongside a beefy unit of SG.

[OrbOfAntioch]

Some additional perspective from my side of the table:

 

My list was the following:

-Crusader Battlecannon x1

-Crusader Thermal Cannon x2

-Valiant WL x1

 

Traits:

-Iron Bulwark on the WL

-1CP Blessed by the Sacristans on a Crusader

 

Relics:

-Traitor's Pyre on WL

-1CP Endless Fury on a Crusader

 

Net CP after Pregame = 7

My CP usage:

-1CP Rotate Shield on Enemy Turn 1

-2CP on Staunch Allies on a poor unsuspecting Morticon and wiped his Mephiston + DC squad, which gave him PTSD on subsequent charges 

-2 on Oathbreaker Missile Snipe on the Captain (statistically unlikely to KILL a captain even with a reroll saved for the wounding, in the end I did 3 wounds and opted not to reroll, which is the equivalent of doing nothing since Captains don't degrade and it will always fight twice dread or alive, still it was very much worth the chance, seeing that Captains are the primary adversary of any Knights)

-2 on Valiant Last Stand

 

Definite Mistakes made:

-I placed 1 crusader outside of my Valiant's Staunch Allie Bubble

-I placed 2 Knights within 3" on turn 2 which enabled a multicharge by the angel's winged Captain, therefore reducing overwatch capability and allowing for split attacks

-I charged my Valiant (on 1 wound on bottom of t2) into this VVets, which I should not have done, considering I had 2CPs left at that point for a Valiant Last Stand should my opponent make a mistake of killing him in the shooting phase. 

 

Possible Future Consideration:

-Getting Knights into combat is very very important since they stomp 12 battle cannon shots each time they connect, however

-Being in range of so many 36" fire on turn 1, combined with Cherub + Hellfire Strategem support actually generates a lot of wounds. I would POSSIBLY consider deploying out of range in a future scenario, but this somewhat controversial because, well, 12 battle cannon stomps are pretty good. 

 

 

Recommendation for BA vs Knights:

-Always run 2 captains in addition to Mephiston, lose the stormshield if you are in need of points, a dead cap is still just as powerful. I know this is bit of a uncreative-no-fun-no-brainer but the way I see it, if you're running a pure BA list with no allies, you really Deserve to have as many captains as you'd like.

-Always Sac the WL captain on the first turn. VS a 4 Knight list, taking 1 knight down before facing retaliation is paramount - it literally knocks off 25% of a Knight's Capablities. Reserve the 2nd Captain for a turn 2 charge, place him behind a LOS blocking terrain, and use the CP for a 3D6 charge which in most cases gets him in without the fear of overwatch. 

-Try to pile in / consolidate in a way where you make your opponent make ineffective target priorities in the shooting phase in order to target your HQs. Sometimes 5 pesty scouts can waste a Knight player dish out a full avanger gatling + battle cannon just to make 100% sure they will be able to target that Captain without fail. 

 

 

Other comments:

-Fantastic Game. In a way unfair to Morticon since me being a BA player knew all the tricks while he wasn't entirely familiar with the Knight's repertoire. Looking forward to many rematches going forward.

-(the 3 6s I rolled were vs chainswords not the TH, haha). "Luck" in a way was a major factor in this game, more so than normal games. Mort Seized. I failed a lot of 4++s top of turn1, but in return I had TWO knights survive on 1 wound which was absolutely devastating since Knights on 1 wound are still insanely powerful (WS 5 BS 5 on Crusaders)

-Extremely impressed by the fact that Morticon brought a Brigade of pure BA to the show instead of crutching on some allie CP farmers. BA Pride. Way to go. 

-I had never seen dual-plasma interceptors in actions before, and while I think it is definitely an inefficient option, it was still a sight to behold, the overcharged plasma connected 5 times for 10 wounds, but yes losing 57 points to a overheating gun really really hurts. Kudos for the refreshing choice. 

-VV Vets are fantastic at being a distraction carnifex especially with 5 SSs. I didn't quite take the bait, but they are surprisingly sticky when I did switch my attention over to them. 

[keeblerartillery]

Thanks for the insights! Always enjoy reading tactical analyses from great players

[Morticon]

@Orb - one thing I'm curious about on account of the fact I have no idea about Knights!  How do they get so many CP from that build? Is it similar to the DE patrol detachment style thing when they get more CP for unique detachments? 

Cheers! 

 

And thanks for the info! (And the correction on the T-hammer vs Chainsword -was that vs the Intercessor Sarge, or something else? Cant remember now!) 

[OrbOfAntioch]

@Orb - one thing I'm curious about on account of the fact I have no idea about Knights!  How do they get so many CP from that build? Is it similar to the DE patrol detachment style thing when they get more CP for unique detachments? 

 

Cheers! 

 

And thanks for the info! (And the correction on the T-hammer vs Chainsword -was that vs the Intercessor Sarge, or something else? Cant remember now!) 

 

Knights through the codex are organized into "Lances" which are special Super-Heavy Detatchments:

3 LOWs with no TITANIC keywords (ie 3 armigers) give 0 CP

3 LOWS with at least 1 TITANIC keywords give 3CP

3 LOWS with 3 TITANIC gives 6 CP

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Well played Mort... Knights are really tough and as stated have some of the best strategems to boot. I’d love to see a rematch.

[Morticon]

Well played Mort... Knights are really tough and as stated have some of the best strategems to boot. I’d love to see a rematch.

 

 

Cheers, mate. And so would I, to be honest.  But the sad thing is that I believe vs. this list it's all about first turn.  I need turn 1 to have a chance. 

 

If I go second, there's nothing I can do to weather that firepower.    

[Remtek]

Ni hao! Always enjoy reading your reports Mort!

[Morticon]

Just wish I could find a quick an easy way to upload pics now! 

[Panzer]

Just wish I could find a quick an easy way to upload pics now! 

 

Imgur?

[Riot Earp]

If it is not blocked in China.

[Morticon]

Looks like photobucket have stopped being silly!!!! <3

 

Thanks to Jolemai for noting that!! <3

[Panzer]

You are really going to trust photobucket again? Well I guess living in China you don't have that many options..