Why do the mentors have two different Chapter badges?

[Axineton]

So I brought the Deathwatch and Space Marines Codexes on iBooks and was flicking through them when I noticed that the Mentor legion have two different chapter badges. Is this a mistake?

 

Circled in red on both pics.

 

Here's the Deathwatch mentor symbol:

 

So it looks to me like it's the same symbol as the White/Black Consuls but in red.

 

Now here's the symbol in the Space Marines codex:

And this one looks like the Raptors chapter symbol I've seen about but in red once again.

 

So like I said is this a mistake or do they have two different symbols? Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but it just got me wondering thats all.

[m_r_parker]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and offer two explanations:

• Genuine mistake
• The Deathwatch have their symbol where traditionally marines have their chapter symbol, so the chapter symbol has to be on the other shoulder. Most of the time it doesn't really matter, but for the Mentors the bird would be looking backwards and not forwards.

I think it's the second, but not ruling out the first.

[Aqui]

If you notice, the Space Wolf and Salamander symbols face the opposite way too. M_R_Parker was correct in his second answer. The symbols face the right, so that it faces the enemy at all times, much like the US flag on military uniforms do, when put on the right shoulder.

[NiceGuyAdi]

The Raven Guard beak should always be pointing forwards on a shoulder pad. So a flipped icon wouldn’t be an exception, here. But it does look like a different icon, anyway.

 

I’m guessing someone’s updated the artwork and it’s not been communicated to whoever made up this page for the Deathwatch book.

[Carlson793]

It's the same reason American soldiers have the US flag "facing the wrong direction" on their right shoulder: because the soldier is supposed to be always marching forward, never retreating, so any symbols on the shoulders face forward, not backward.

[Axineton]

I’m not on about the direction the symbol is facing chaps, I’m on about it’s two different symbols. The bottom picture has the symbol with more plumage at the bottom of the bird icon whereas the top symbol has a straight horizontal line with less plumage if you get my meaning?

 

The Raven Guard beak should always be pointing forwards on a shoulder pad. So a flipped icon wouldn’t be an exception, here. But it does look like a different icon, anyway.

I’m guessing someone’s updated the artwork and it’s not been communicated to whoever made up this page for the Deathwatch book.

I think this is probably the right answer and it’s a genuine mistake as the pictures are clearly different icons.

[Aqui]

Then it's a style change. Space Wolves and a lot of older Canon chapters have had style changes over the years.

[Panzer]

It's probably a mix of both. Style change and the fact that it's for the pauldron on the other side.

[Lucien Eilam]

GW have at least four variations of “bird of prey head” icon, which they’ve used with very little consistency over the years for any Chapter that uses anything similar (Mentors, Raptors, Storm Hawks, various flavours of Consuls, etc.), even excluding the FW version of the Raptors, and variants of the Raptor Imperialis.
 
I wouldn’t worry about it. Everyone knows this is the proper version of the Mentors Chapter icon anyway:
 

[Axineton]

I wish there was a consul shoulder pad available I’d be over the moon for a proper one.

[Aramis K]

Well the pad in the Deathwatch kit looks like the symbol in the Marine codex, so I think that's the one and Deathwatch codex is a mistake.

 

Mentors fluff and symbols have always been quite inconsistent. Are they 'insular' or 'tutors'? Is Nisk really Omegon?

 

The new ADB novel about them might help here.

[Xenith]

As per the above. Mentors have two symbols, but the ones you posted are the same. Chapter badges are reversed to face forwards when the badge moves to the right shoulder, same with terminators.

 

Mentors have both the Owl head, and the generic red 'raptor' head, which is the modern version (owls being raptors, and all).

 

Same as the space sharks being the carachadon astra, they have been modernised.

 

As an aside, you'll notice that the dark angels secretly flipped their badge during the heresy to show their new allegiance. Weirdly when they join the deathwatch, it's flipped back to the pre heresy original.

[Dusktiger]

To answer your original question Fr33Dom, about whether they have more than one symbol or not...yes and no.

 

You have a good eye for noticing how the feathers are drawn on the bird head.

 

And yes guys, the symbol is flipped cause in Heraldry, any animal always faces forwards on the coat of arms because looking back implies cowardice and/or dishonour, and the first picture is from the Deathwatch book which has the chapter pads on the right arm.  (which if you study up on heraldry, you'll find out that there's examples where some families had animals on their coat of arms redrawn to face backwards to reflect that family had disgraced itself at some point)

 

But as for the actual design of the symbol, this you'd have to fall back on a very old book that's no longer available anymore as it's from back in 4th/5th edition days, called the Index Astartes.  (i was lucky enough to get a new copy when i first started building my collection.)  In it, it states that it's normal protocol to routinely alter the symbols a chapter used on their armour to throw off the enemy from being able to recognize specific squads  when trying to recon their forces in the field.  This applied to altering the symbols for Tactical, assault, devastator, veteran, and command units, but some chapters would also make slight variations to their chapter's symbol to throw off the xenos races by making them think it may be another chapter altogether.

 

That said, the Mentors have had a few alterations over the decades since they're a chapter that's been only partially fleshed out by GW, and each time they come back to them, it appears its someone else doing the writing, so little things change here and there.  But the fans of the chapter simply compile it all together and and use the go-to excuse that when something doesn't add up or conflicts, its because the imperium is terrible at keeping accurate records, and there's the possibility that they screwed up and made 2 chapters with the same name and colors and its the difference in symbol that hints there's actually 2 chapters out there and no one's caught on yet cause they're never deployed in the same place at the same time.

 

that's also why if you research the Mentors, you'll find them referred to as the Mentors Chapter, the Mentors Legion, and even the Mentor Legion Chapter.  and since there's 3 variations of the symbol, who knows, maybe the imperium buggered up and there's actually THREE chapters with similar names and colors.

[KhorneHunter57x]

and since there's 3 variations of the symbol, who knows, maybe the imperium buggered up and there's actually THREE chapters with similar names and colors.

Wouldn't be the first time that's happened. As I recall, there was an incident where two Chapters were created with the same colors and symbol, and they eventually both received orders to go to the same place.  No one realized the mistake until two Chapter's worth of corpses were later recovered.

[Axineton]

the ones you posted are the same.

They're not the same they’re different mate.

 

But anyway cheers guys for clearing it up or clearing it up to as near as we’re gonna clear it up to.

[SickSix]

Wait a minute... Since when do the Mentors not work well with others? I thought that's what they were known for?

[Brother Tyler]

The only lore where they worked well with others was published in 1st edition (and later re-printed in the Apocrypha). Since 5th edition, they have been retconned as a standard, and insular, Chapter.

[SickSix]

Booo.