new fluff vs old fluff

[Medjugorje]

I want to start a survey threw the whole Black Templar community.

 

There are a few things in our lore that very unclear. And GW didnt clarify that yet.

A-D-B in Black Legionand the old BT-codex suggested/clarifed a lot of things that is very different in books form Guy Haley. i asked him and he said thats the pov from GW now.

 

At first I want to list that things and then I want to know what you prefer.

 

okay, lets go:

 

1. Number

in old codex it was suggested that there are much more marines then the allowed 1000.  A-D-B talks about a number like a LEGION. Index talk about thousands of warriors and Guy Haley said thats just a bit over 1000 because of the art of warfare.

 

2. Eternal Crusader - a Gloriana class battleship?

in " Black Legion" it was clarifed that the ET is a Gloriana class. in other publications its never talked about - just a little bit bigger because it was changed over the years.

 

3. Imperial truth vs Imperial Cult

dont have to talk about that fact for GW that this is approved to be new fluff. But I want to know your statement to it.

 

4. hate each psyker....

 

 

please take your time and maybe find out some other things needed to be clarified.

[redmapa]

As for our numbers I wouldnt take Haley's Eternal Crusader as anything valuable, he's a great writer but that particular book stank of editorial pushing their agenda and Haley basically said as much. Now taking the rulebook and codices into account here's my take on the subject

 

As of  999M41 there are two Crusades that we know their numbers, theres the Armageddon Crusade with 1200 marines accounted for and theres the Crusade of Brotherhood sent to Rynn's World to aid the Crimson Fists which had 772 marines, now every single Space Marine codex also has two crusades going to the edges of the galaxy and we dont know much about them except that they seem to be ongoing even after the 100 year time skip and there's also the fact that there may be other Crusades that are simply waiting to be shown if GW wanted to.

 

In conclusion, we have AT LEAST 2000 marines as of M42 and thats supported by current books at least implicitly. I think the estimate of 6000 marines in the 4th edition codex is very believable if you take everything into account.

 

 

 

3. Imperial truth vs Imperial Cult

 

I dont mind this change to be honest, my only gripe with it is that it removes agency from the audience and thats one of the strengths of 40k, the fact that the narrative is shrouded in mystery and incomplete information allows you to make it your own but now we have to simply accept the "facts" whereas before we didnt know how much more the Black Templars venerated the Emperor, just that they did far more and with more zeal than other Chapters.

[Medjugorje]

thats not true... in Helsreach Grimaldus said it clearly. They dont believe in him as a god but as a father.

 

New fluff is clearly too - we are believers now

[Arganias]

I don't have a huge problem with the Black Templars becoming religiously fanatical. I think in the zeal and fanaticism department they can turn it off and on, as in go from 0-100 in a second. I like to use Helsreachs as a good template for how they generally behave, whether that has been retconned or not. They are ferocious, yet disciplined warriors that want to utterly destroy their enemies.

 

I don't think there has been that radical of a change, unless we're talking old fluff as in 3rd edition Templars just being fancy relatively codex compliant chapter versus 4th edition and beyond Templars.

[Medjugorje]

For myself I like the idea to relation to ekklesiarchie and the imperial cult. It fits perfect.

 

I dont like the fact that we dont hate psykers like we do before, i dont like the fact that we ally with Chaos Space Marines against orks... In old fluff there was a story that Dark Eldar attack an imperial station and as the templar arrived another eldar fraction fight against the dark eldar. The Black Templars destroyed them both. No pity, no remorse no fear....

very strict. And then I love the Idea to ignore the codex, not just in behave but in manpower too. Guy Haley said there are just a litte bit more,.. I like the idea to rebuild a legion because the eternal crusade is more important then everything else.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

1. The current codex re-cons the numbers as being far in excess of 1000, so I consider that settled

 

2. The Eternal Crusader is settled as a Gloriana. This difference stems, I believe, from the fact that the concept of a Gloriana Battleship didn't really exist before Horus Rising was written. All the Legions had at least one Gloriana, The Black Templars are the only second founding chapter to have one, because the Fists didn't need theirs, they were based on Terra and had the Phalanx.

 

3. The Imperial Truth. I don't like this change, I preferred the ADB view. But I consider the issue well and truly settled. Not only because we have the M41 Haley fluff, but also the Beast Arises is far more explicit about the aubject. The Templars in M41 are a bit more subtle than those in M32.

 

4. We still hate psykers but we obviously had to have Astropaths and Navigators, we're fleet based! The first Beast Arises book with Beaumont in it still shows his dislike of the Astropath however.

 

I did notice a lot of changes throughout the Beast Arises, I'm certain that in the first book about Beaumont he was written as just a Marshal. (I can't check easily as I have them on audio book only!) They then changed this to make him the High Marshal, Haley then had to correct a lot of the problems this caused, such as the absence of the Eternal Crusader. Now in dry dock for the duration of the crusade.

 

Fighting against Calcator was also a necessity. I don't think it would have happened if anyone else had been the Warsmith however. He was obviously a bit reticent about the chaos influence on his legion, cutting off his own arm when it mutated, preferring an augmetic to a mutation.

I also don't think it counts as a really successful crusade if the Orks steal your kill.

[Closet Skeleton]

Black Library novels aren't fluff, they're narrative stories. There haven't been any real major retcons in the published 40k background for the chapter, its just been expanded in different directions.

 

The idea that the Black Templars are only slightly more than normal chapter size goes back to the 3rd ed fluff where the chapter size was ambiguous and smaller sizes were stated as possible. No source has ever specifically stated how big all the crusades are, contradictory sizes have been a feature of our background since chapter approved in 3rd edition so no new contradictions can be seen as a 'retcon'. The 6000 in the 4th ed codex is only stated as a possibility, the actual figures for Crusade size in that book are recycled 3rd ed ones that would put the whole chapter at under 2000.

 

Black Templars have never been legion sized. Not under the old canonical legion size and certainly not under the retconned legion size from the novels and Black books.

 

The M41 Eternal Crusader has been refitted and expanded so much that its not any 'class' of ship. The USS Constitution was launched in 1797 and remained in service until 1881 so its a good historical analogue to a space ship that served for a ridiculous time period. When they started restoring the USS Constitution in 1995 they found that the original plans were almost useless as a description of the surviving ship, that maybe 20% at most of the wood dated back to the 18th century and they had to abandon the plan of returning the ship to its original class because it would destroy more history then it would be preserving.

 

Imperial Truth was a retcon invented when the Horus Heresy series was first written, the 4th ed codex didn't have it in mind at all. The idea that any chapter in M41 follows it is just dumb fannon. The fluff on Space marine cults has always been that they were individual and diverse with not seeing the Emperor as divine but still worshiping him, the primarchs and various chapter heroes being a common factor.

[Medjugorje]

5000-6000 ist close to legion size... thats what A-D-B wrote in Black Legion. And it was allways implied that Templars have much more Manpower.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

No it's not, not anymore. The Legions were originally said to be around 1000, nowadays, closer to 100,000. Ultras maybe 200,000!

[Medjugorje]

No it's not, not anymore. The Legions were originally said to be around 1000, nowadays, closer to 100,000. Ultras maybe 200,000!

ADB wrote in Black Legion thats not as big as a legion but very very big... and so 5000-6000 is very very big...

[SWORD BROTHER RYAN]

Okay, lets answer by the numbers:

 

1) Numbers:

     It's easy to speculate on this and impossible to pin this down to an exact number because of the nature of our Chapter. Fleet-based means that there are multiple Crusades ongoing at any given time. Some are huge, like 998M41 at Armageddon, and some much smaller, consisting of only 50-100 Initiates, as has been stated in multiple sources. Now, each of these Crusades, large or small, will likely recruit from one or several of our Chapter Keeps to replenish losses, so the number fluctuation becomes inevitable as time goes on. 1000 can become 742, then take on 35 from Keep X, 125 from Keep Y, and 300 from Keep Z. Now they sit at 1202 after recruitment. Well, the next battle sees 411 casualties. So, they're back down to 791. This goes on and on for 10,000 years, and we begin to see that the total size is in constant flux. All we can be certain of is that we have more than the codex allows for, but nobody but the High Marshal can truly know the exact number as they won't meet up in one place for an Imperial count. Even if you get the majority of Crusades to do so, you'll still have a few small ones out and about unable to disengage from their respective wars.

     My view, we have a lot more, and we don't know by how much. I'm fine with the lack of knowledge in this area.

 

2) The Class of The Eternal Crusader:

     Yes, it began it's service as a Gloriana, but due to retrofits, repairs, and time (once again, we're talking about 10,000 years or more), it is essentially unclassifiable. I'd bet that if Sigismund mysteriously resurrected, even he wouldn't recognize the ship for what it has become. There was a video a while ago with computer models of all classes of ships and space stations from many different Sci-Fi universes in a size comparison, and other than a majority of space stations, the Eternal Crusader easily dwarfed the size of even the largest vessels we've seen thus far. 

     My view, this question is settled.

 

3) Imperial Truth or Imperial Cult:

     This has been a sticking point for many of us. A lot of us older players remember that we had more belief in the Emperor than most other Chapters, and now GW would have us as religious zealots. Fluff from one source says that we're not, another source says we are. I could list them, but this has already been done for me by those who have posted before. I'll admit, I haven't read some of the lore mentioned, but I've read enough to see the contradictions and warring POV's. As individual players, we all have our own take and opinion on this subject. Mine is below if you'd like to see. If not, skip past for #4.

 

In the Age of Apostasy, we were on scene for a crucial moment that saw the architect of the imperium's woes, Goge Vandire, brought down. No, t wasn't by our hands, but we were there at his end. Afterwards, it was stated that the Ministorum would not be allowed to have men at arms anymore, so they instead used women (Adeptus Sororitas, or Sisters of Battle, whichever you prefer).

In my mind, we saw the Ministorum become way too powerful and almost crush our beloved imperium. In my view, the Black Templars began to incorporate the doctrine of the God Emperor as cannon both inwardly and outwardly at this time. I know the fluff doesn't agree, but just follow me here for a moment and you may see my rationalization for this line of thought. If the Ministorum believes that we venerate the Emperor as a God, the AS/SoB do as well, other Chapters see it, and the entire Imperium believes we do, then who better to ensure that an event like the Age of Apostasy does not occur again? We have the best vantage point to keep a watchful eye on them and ensure that they don't try to take over again. In my mind, to themselves, they venerate the Emperor as the true and rightful ruler of Mankind, but anyone looking in at us would believe we worship him as a God. In short, it's all for appearances to keep a close eye on a VERY powerful sect of the Imperium and ensure that we are prepared to knock them back if they grow into too much power and influence again

.

 

4) Psyker Hatred:

     We hate them. The end(ish).

     We may or may not have had them in the past, but we also see the catastrophic damage they can do unchecked. Yes, we use them to a degree by having Astropaths, but the entire Imperium needs them in order to communicate at all over such vast swathes of space, and we always have had to use them. The Emperor allowed it when he walked amongst us, and there is no real way to replace them. We don't like it, but we have to have them. (I don't include Navigators, as they are mutants. Whole different conversation there)

     The Librarians, on the other hand, the Emperor decreed that the use of Psykers was entirely forbidden shortly before the Horus Heresy, and I don't recall Him rescinding that order. I believe it was in one of our older codex's that an event of great psychic magnitude may have destroyed all of our Librarians all at once (as I remember it, it was alluded to speculatively). Imagine seeing this first hand. That in and of itself would drive us to reject psykers in any form in our ranks from that point on. They can't screw up if we don't have them.

     Which leads into the next segment of this response, enemy psykers. We see the havoc they can cause, either human or xenos, and will not let that stand. I still firmly believe that "Abhor The Witch, Destroy The Witch!" was designed with the enemy in mind, not our own allies that use psykers under controlled circumstances. An enemy army that relies on psychic abilities will be hampered more quickly if the enemy psykers are destroyed completely, and it's our doctrine to do so. 

     In short, let the other Chapters play with their fates by employing psykers on the battlefield. We will not, and will aggressively remove the enemy witch at any costs.

 

Long post, I know, and a lot of it is my POV. In the end, it's all based on which version of the lore you decide to believe.

[Xisor]

I'm not a BT player, but I view you all very fondly, and am always keen to keep an ear to the ground re: your progress.

 

With the question of Truth vs Creed, have you all given much thought to factionalism *within* the Templars and focusing on that?

 

How often is there communication between one Crusade and another? How often does an Apothecary or Chaplain go hither or tither?

 

If you're separate for many centuries, and only operating from a loose starting point, and seeing 'some sh!t' in the times between, I'd contend that the faiths diverging and getting into 'theological debates and minutiae' would be rife for the Chapter.

 

It would also explain why there's continually more Crusades - it's an easy and convenient way to resolve a Schism: send the "schismatics" off on a ship of their own with the official stamp of a new crusade.

 

It wouldn't take too much to show, say, that the Armageddon Crusade under Helbrecht has the 'mainstream' viewpoint, but also to show that say the Crusade of some random thing, happens to have a much more 'brutal secularisim' - where psykers aren't the issue, it's deviation from the Rule of Terra. And another where the obedience of Terra isn't important so much as personal daily loyalty to the ideals of Him on the Throne. And another where loyalty is through action, and operating as a Codex (albeit Crusading) force is the main game of your 'religion' (e.g. the faith is in being a Space Marine to the best of your devotion, not in abstract worship or superstition).

 

Many Crusades would go back and forth, across time, about which bits are important and which are points of doctrinal obscurity.

 

Basically: it needn't be a monolithic thing, but could be a much messier thing across the entire Chapter, but individual Crusades and Chaplains will be a lot more certain (and intolerant of deviation) regarding the point.

 

It would 'fuse' the apparent contradictions, at least, without strictly invalidating either side?

[Medjugorje]

Its always what we do with them. But for me its important to see what GW want to do with us. Thats for me the important question.

[Kinstryfe]

I do agree with and was ready to type up something similar to Xisor's post, but think he said it well. I expect that even if they have an official stance, individual crusades or brothers have their own religious opinions. I'd actually like to see scenarios where this conflict comes into play. A crusade's Commander has one opinion, and his chaplain another, and the crusade splinters into two crusades who each start recruiting and teaching their own version. Both undoubtedly loyal to The Emperor and the Chapter but having irreconcilable differences.

 

Size of the chapter: I think with the way they operate, they're certainly much larger than a Chapter but much smaller than a Legion. I also think it's almost more accurate to say that they operate like a group of chapters rather than as a Legion. Almost like how the Unforgiven operate. Each Chapter is mostly independent but would heed the supreme grandmaster, which is exactly how I envision crusades.

 

Hates Psykers: There's got to be conflict here between hating all psykers, but realizing that the Imperium can't possibly exist without them. I think that there's room for them to be tolerant of sanctioned psykers; albeit finding their presence distasteful and eschewing them in their ranks; while zealously destroying the witch and Xenos psykers. Think of it as similar to how your typical guardsmen would regard sanctioned, stable abhumans: disgusting to be around but being useful as long as they keep in line.

[Xisor]

That's a great point or two too, Kinstryfe.

 

On the size and unity of the Black Templars, might it be worth thinking of them as... franchises? E.g. They each imbue Hellbrecht and the High Marshall's crusade with extra influence, intelligence and 'opportunity' (an intelligence/back scratching network not unlike the Dark Angels), and a cultural influence centred around the Chaplains of the High Marshall's Crusade.

 

But unlike the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven, there is the dogma of independent action, of focus and pure-mindedness, that is reflected in the Crusades. E.g. Can Hellbrecht command Crusades to come to heel in the way that, say, the authority of the Dark Angels (strictly the Inner Circles) can do? Or even by the bonds and affiliation that Calgar and Dante and the like cultivate?

 

I suppose that's the big difference?

 

Under the Black Templar's umbrella there may be a force vastly exceeding a Chapter, but it is not at all wieldable in the manner of Chapter.

 

E.g. you couldn't (reliably - I'm sure it has happened, and giving instances of it may allow some nice conspiracies/will-they-won't-they speculations) pool even a fraction of the Crusades into a bigger force.

 

At least not to follow the agenda of a single individual (the problems Guilliman faced on reflecting on the actions of Horus and Don, and now absolutely embodied in modern hypocrisy with Dark Imperium!)

 

Man, I want to know more about Hellbrecht in the DI time line!

 

----

 

And for the hatred of psykers, you have the very core contention at the heart of Imperial dogma, far exceeding Navigators and Astropaths: The Immortal Emperor of Mankind.

 

I rather like the idea that the notion that the Emperor is psychic simply isn't known by the Imperium at large.

 

E.g. the line Space Marines assume he was a genehanced human. The Librarians sometimes cast aspersions that the Emperor was a psykers, but non-Librarians assume that's bias on the Librarian's parts. The Chaplains paint the Emperor as a powerfully single-minded being of ultimate determination and discipline. The Chapter Masters view Him as a political animal.

 

And for the rest of the Imperium? The Best Human, or a political operator who climbed to the top, or a legend.

 

So that contention of 'hatred of psykers' could be really heavily reinforced: how often does any Black Templar, even across centuries and millennia, come across evidence of the Emperor's psychic nature in a manner which can't be easily written off as mere heresy?

 

E.g. The light of the astronomican as a manifestation of His Will? Meaningless heresy propagated by the political games devious psykers play. It is an artefact of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica, purported to be operated by Adeptus Astronomica schismatics. It is claimed to be necessary for the Navigators, but Navigators are mutants of unreliable necessity; their words are not to be trusted, only their actions. (And even then...)

 

----

 

Simply, playing up the single-mindedness of the Black Templars, and the unreliability of the rest of the Imperial structures, may be a great way to both smooth over the inconsistencies, and allow for a lot of fun to be had in looking at what lives in the gaps.

 

----

 

I really fancy some Black Templars Primaris now. Damn it.