Mechanicus Tweaks

[Xisor]

Hey all,

 

Thinking about ol' Belle Carl, and the conditions of our wee HQs really shoving us into the fiendish mechadendrites of Carl any time we want to squeeze some efficiency.

 

Without doing a deep dive on it, and with the vague notion of attendant points adjustments, how do people feel about the idea of:

 

1- Carl's re-roll being re-roll 1s to hit in both Shooting *and* Combat for all <Forge World>? (Rather than re-roll all failed in Shooting for Mars as currently.)

 

2- Carl gains Mars Keyword *and* another Forge World. (Galactic Traveller, would only have Mars Warlord trait default, but can be fielded by other formations, but would be less uniquely *outright better* than everyone else's Domini. But is still a tank in combat.)

 

3- Magos retains re-roll 1s to Hit in shooting OR fight-phase (not both, select one).

 

4- Two Skitarius HQs (one based off the cheerfully officious looking robed Sicarian Alphas, can have Inf aura too, or +1 attack; one from the troops Alphas, but has a the Broad Spectrum DT rule too?), with aura for re-roll wound rolls of 1 for Skitarii in Shooting & Close Combat?

 

5- Techpriest Engineseer: gain aura to re-roll fight phase Cult Mechanicus to-wound 1s? (Servherder?)

 

6- I kinda feel like the Cybernetica Data Smith should be an HQ too, that would let a Cybernetica Spearhead Maniple be a genuine detachment. One Datasmith and a parade of Robots, nobody else involved. Easy!

 

I've long thought that giving Carl and Guilliman the blanket re-rolls to hit was a bit too eclipsing of everyone else, and would allow their points to come down a fair whack if it was just a 'slightly better' version of their peers. Bit of a need, but spreads the love.

 

The hope being, Carl becomes a bit less monodominating - doesn't have to be Mars, and doesn't need strictlt to be in a wall.

 

And for everyone else? It shakes things up a bit, without going mad.

 

Only major consequence I see is that Ryza's dogma is devalued by proliferation of re-roll 1s to wound.

 

But with cheaper access to re-roll to hit, maybe that's not so bad? I feel a bit bad raining on Ryza's already submerged parade.

[Stray]

Hmm. Dunno.

 

I suspect Cawl and the Mars FW traits are specifically balanced to work together. Stygies for example is pretty universally seen as more potent than the Mars trait, so I'm not sure they should additionally benefit from Cawl's aura and what is categorically the most powerful re-roll of it's kind in the game.

 

I don't think I'm convinced that it would do anything but create more of a situation where one FW approaches being clearly 'the best' choice. Right now, there are reasons to choose a few of them.

[brother_b]

I'd be okay with making the data smith a HQ choice. I'm thinking that once all the army books are out they'll start releasing different HQs/Characters for the various armies. It would be cool to have a named Stygies VIII HQ or something like that as an option. Some sort of source books.

[Vash113]

I could see making the Datasmith an HQ but I'm otherwise relatively happy with the characters and their aura abilities. Instead of changing those I think the faction just needs more units and more options. We could really use a plastic servitor kit and some kind of single-blister plastic Skitarii HQ who would provide fight phase buffs.

[synthaside]

I would see .... the Datasmith become a HQ , i would actually take one because they are just flat out better than more Enginseer's, if i could i would hapily take a datasmith
holding the Relic mask of re-roll missed hits  for my terrax assault lists, WS and BS are better  as is his armour save ...  he can make both of this attacks with the power fist rather than only the 1 and he's got a gamma pistol which is ... basically a 2 damage strength 6  safe plasma pistol.

Whats not to like ... there's just no reason to take him as an elite but instead of the Astra Militarum reject  muppet with a laspistol ... or a massively overpriced TPD ... in a heartbeat
 

[LT_CLAWS]

~Both Skitarii HQs would be bad ass

~Named HQs would be nice

~Fixing the servitors all together would be nice too

~HQ the Datasmith for sure

~A Cawl size general HQ, maybe not nearly as good but same battlefield presence. Would make for a sweet kit.

[Thorakitai]

Having a cheapish HQ choice that isn't a pure tax 90% of the time would improve things greatly. It doesn't really matter what exactly that HQ is. Heck, just give engineseers a list of specializations (like the 30k ones) and they would feel a lot less like deadweight.

[Heliomanes]

Since we're wishlisting.

Keep the Enginseer and the Dominus, but rename them into "Magos" and "Magos Dominus" respectively. Force them to choose a discipline specialization which grants an interesting rule, like "biologis" granting a feel no pain bubble to infantry, "cybernetica" granting the datasmith rules, und so weiter. Add a costed upgrade for the Dominus called "Archmagos", which grants the same reroll to hit bubble that Cawl has, but makes it available to all Forge Worlds, while keeping Cawl unique and interesting because of his unique wargear and statline.

Add a Skitarii HQ modelled after the Secutarii Axiarch. Cheap and cheerful, with leadership buffs to nearby Skitarii.

Servitors: make them more varied and customizable. I want to be able to represent everything from hastily scrambled hordes of kitchen-servitors brandishing vacuum cleaner arms and aprons, to different combat models. Some similar to arco-flaggelants, others more like the tracked kataprons. Don't force us to take an even mix of incompatible versions in the same unit, like in the current codex...

Allow Secutarii and drills access to the Forge World rule. And give us access to the Triaros, Myrmidons, Ordinatus minoris etc - they have been in 40k for a while in the fluff, and some people have had Ordinatii lying on the shelf ever since FW published "experimental rules" for them in 40k which they never ported...

Add a "Secutor" unit to the faction, modelled after classic imagery like the one attached below, and characters like Rho-Mu 31. Preferably with varied weapon options, from polearms to rotor cannons to more exotic and arcane weirdness. Perhaps even add in some of the standard bearers pictured in the concept art that eventually turned into Belisarius Cawl.

http://d28hgpri8am2if.cloudfront.net/book_images/onix/cvr9781849708173/mechanicum-9781849708173_hr.jpg


 

[Xisor]

Intriguing. (*chinscratching emoji*)

 

Very intriguing!

 

I suppose, the questions this gives me, is:

1- do people feel Carl is more important as a 'unique thing for Mars' or as 'an asset to Adeptus Mechanicus players'? My thinking was to downplay his Martian uniqueness and up-play his utility to the faction overall (and accordingly 'sell more models'), but is that too much of an insult to Mars-affiliated players?

 

2- Concordantly, do folks feel that Martian players deserve Carl to themselves, rather than (as per the lore) him routinely gallivanting about the galaxy in cahoots with other forges?

 

3- Some 'simple' specialisations for HQs? (It's tempting to go detailed a la Forgeworld, but that also means most can be too-situational/bloat, with only one or two being used. I feel it's better to stick to a couple of 'big' specialisms; e.g. combat/shooting/repair, which'll all likely see use.)

 

4- Skitarii HQ to be 'cheap and cheerful' (not a 'tank', not BA hammer-captain), but bringing a nice buff.

 

5- Cawl's 're-roll all missed shooting' bubble should be an 'Archmagos' Command Point upgrade for other Dominums (a la Chapter Master), not unique to Carl.

 

6- Any sort of tweak to make servitors/kataphrons a bit better would be nice?

 

7- Datasmith to HQ doesn't seem objectionable, but allowing for some variety would be nice?

 

----

 

But even setting most of those thoughts aside, it seems to me that focusing on Skitarii Alphas is the lowest hanging, most immediately attractive and inoffensive fruit?

 

E.g. 'Skitarii Alpha Prime - M7", WS3+,BS2+, S4, T4, W4, A3, Ld8, 4+/6++' would sort-of do the trick?

 

Allow them the suite of options for both troops and elites (ruststalker/infiltrator weapons), and bolt on a broad-spectrum data tether [to make 'em useful to have near Skitarii in general], as well as a 'local area data tether' rule that allows re-rolls of fight phase 1s to-hit within 6" for all ad mech?

 

That might be a fair boost for Fistellans and for Breachers, as well as Skitarii.

 

Slightly treads on Ryza's toes, but maybe add 're-roll 1s & 2s' caveat for Ryza or switch Ryza's from to-hit to to-wound?

[Stray]

Just as a heads up, that isn't what Cawls re-roll does.

 

Cawl has a re-roll which is completely unique in 40K. The wording has nothing to do with failed or missed hits, instead he allows you to re-roll ANY hit roll. This is a hugely important distinction as it counters the normal priority issues that re-rolls and modifiers encounter. It's tremendously powerful.

 

I certainly don't feel that it should be mirrored across any other units, HQ or otherwise - at least in the form it exists in. Enginseers and Vanilla Domini shouldn't get access to an arguably better re-roll ability than Guilliman or Abbadon :)

[Heliomanes]

1 and 2: Nah, I just think that it fits with a special character to keep a specific Forge World rule. He can still act in support of other Forges, of course, but is likely to keep his own Skitarii detachments and lesser Magi with him to some extent. Which means, for game purposes, he'll come in a Mars detachment. Making him more freely available would also put him in direct competition with the "Archmagos" rule option I want, and I know I want the latter to be more prevalent.

3: Yeah, I like the "biologis" being a FNP bubble, "autokrator" being a bonus to repairs, "cybernetica" giving the datasmith rules, perhaps even a "martial" or "militant" giving some reroll 1s to hit or wound in melee. Keep them simple, but fluffy, and allow our obligatory HQ choices to become an eccentric team of diverse experts, rather than just a bunch of enginseers.

4. Absolutely. I think that a Skitarii HQ should be themed towards cooperation, cost efficiency and effective leadership, not becoming our version of smashcaptains and the likes.

5. I still think it should cost points, since it is so powerful. I disagree with Stray on this, I think that it would be good for the game to have his unique reroll bubble become an Archmagos upgrade, since it is uniquely efficient against the ever prevalent -1 to hit rules, which are outcompeting all other options at the moment. And just to make sure; this should be an expensive upgrade only available to Archmagos Dominus.

6. Yeah, ideally I would want a general points balancing / rules tweak across the entire range.

7. Yeah, but you could even remove the option and merge it with the proposed "Magos" upgrade, as one of the various specialities. I'm fine with either, of course, but would really like GW in general to take the unlikely step towards more customisable HQ choices rather than the current lists of stock options with only options from the box set, and a copyright friendly "unique" name that just sounds off-putting in its transparent raison d'etre.

[Stray]

5. I still think it should cost points, since it is so powerful. I disagree with Stray on this, I think that it would be good for the game to have his unique reroll bubble become an Archmagos upgrade, since it is uniquely efficient against the ever prevalent -1 to hit rules, which are outcompeting all other options at the moment. And just to make sure; this should be an expensive upgrade only available to Archmagos Dominus.

 

Yeah, fair point actually. Perhaps it should be more widely available as a counter to the -1 meta builds. I think perhaps across the board though, rather than just as a Mechanicus option. I think your argument is fluffier Helio, but in practical terms it'd be such a useful counter (or at least partial counter) to something that everyone suffers from to a degree.

 

It should be pointed accordingly though, for sure.

[Thorakitai]

One thing to keep in mind for Cawl's re-roll aura (and that of the dominus) is that it's restricted to the shooting phase. It's more powerful than other re-roll buffs, but also vastly more limited. So on the whole, it's balanced with the chapter master aura for example, which allows rerolls of misses in any phase.

[Stray]

Hmm. I agree and disagree here Thorakitai.

 

It certainly makes other buffs more flexible - as you say, they are also useful in assault. But I don't know if I feel that says anything about the power of the respective buffs.

 

Your Chapter Master example is far more likely to be useful to a marine army because they're pretty flexible in ranging from being decent to good at both shooting and assault. Ad Mech on the other hand, while having assault units, are very much a gun line army at heart. The assault phase is fairly irrelevant to all but a very small number of units. It'd be hard to see Cawl accompanying a unit of Dragoons rather than a number of shooting units.

 

The other thing is that the whole hit modifier problem melts away entirely anyway when you're running an assault-centric army :)

 

Still, you make a good point. I'm just not convinced that they're as equivalent in terms of 'power' when you factor in where you see them used. 

[Thorakitai]

Hmm. I agree and disagree here Thorakitai.

 

It certainly makes other buffs more flexible - as you say, they are also useful in assault. But I don't know if I feel that says anything about the power of the respective buffs.

 

Your Chapter Master example is far more likely to be useful to a marine army because they're pretty flexible in ranging from being decent to good at both shooting and assault. Ad Mech on the other hand, while having assault units, are very much a gun line army at heart. The assault phase is fairly irrelevant to all but a very small number of units. It'd be hard to see Cawl accompanying a unit of Dragoons rather than a number of shooting units.

 

The other thing is that the whole hit modifier problem melts away entirely anyway when you're running an assault-centric army :)

 

Still, you make a good point. I'm just not convinced that they're as equivalent in terms of 'power' when you factor in where you see them used.

I mostly find myself wishing I had it in overwatch. And it would be nice to have when using the interception stratagem. It wouldn't be that useful for punching things, since we have ways of getting full hit re-rolls for everything except robots (and drills?) anyway.

[Prot]

I think in terms of lore, Cawl is just as unique and integral to the current storyline as Guilliman is. Therefore I’d never duplicate that Aura ability without giving Cawl something else equally as unique ( which will never happen).

 

Game wise I struggle with Mars a lot. No one takes them in any competitive setting even though Cawl has this ‘amazing ‘ aura. So from a Mars player view, I wouldn’t see him farmed out to other factions unless there was a ‘Guilliman clause’ in his Aura. IE any Imperium Keyword unit’s within 9” of Cawl may reroll all 1’s in the shooting phase. “

[Heliomanes]

I disagree. Making the reroll bubble more readily available would be a boon for the faction as a whole and the game in general, for reasons stated above. Cawl would still be unique due to his unique statline, wargear, and rules such as the one that allows him to add or subtract to Canticles rolls.

[Stray]

Honestly, I suspect there was never an intention for Cawl to have an aura that works that way. My suspicion is some bad wording that was overlooked (it was an early codex, and nothing similar has existed since). But here we are regardless :)

[Prot]

I disagree. Making the reroll bubble more readily available would be a boon for the faction as a whole and the game in general, for reasons stated above. Cawl would still be unique due to his unique statline, wargear, and rules such as the one that allows him to add or subtract to Canticles rolls.

 

To be clear I don't disagree the bubble would help the faction.

 

I just disagree entirely with the mechanism as discussed in this thread (Cawl).

 

Cawl is Cawl. Guilliman is Guilliman.

 

If you gave Guilliman's unique aura to all Space Marines, you could make the same argument: He's still Guilliman and has a cool fire sword.

This isn't a 'make your captain a Chapter master for 3 CP' kind of thing. It's a unique character item.

 

Aura sharing is just a band aid anyway. Any of these aura arguments are just as valid for Space Marines which have a horrendous competitive showing as well. No more band aids for me. 

 

Just my personal opinion on it.

[Heliomanes]

I still fundamentally disagree with you, and think that your suggestion is more of a "band aid" than mine.

Making Mars even more dependant on Cawl's aura doesn't fix anything for the faction. Reducing Cawl simply to his reroll bubble is also reductionistic and mistaken, in my humble opinion. He has other unique abilities, unique wargear, unique statline etc. And there are other character with their own variants of a reroll bubble, the fact that they exist shouldn't detract from Cawl being Cawl.

Making the bubble available as a costed "Archmagos" upgrade to the Dominus would do a lot to make other Forges interesting, since Kataphrons, Kastelans etc are so reliant on it to do much of anything. Then Agripinaa's "fresh converts" stratagem, or Ryzan plasma specialists would actually become interesting contenders. Locking an ability that is actually needed to make key units in the codex work behind a special character is just poor design.

It would also allow Mars to be something else than just "the faction that allows you to use Cawl", since you could make your own Archmagos instead of being just another guy who brought the same special character as everyone else who plays the faction. It would allow for much easier future balancing between the factions as well, since the playing field has been leveled a little. Still, the -1 to hit and infiltrate stratagem factions rule supreme - but more wide access to a reroll bubble that is somewhat efficient against those modifiers would be good for the game as a whole.

Edit: Still, this is all entirely academic. GW is supremely unlikely to take our thoughts on the matter into consideration when balancing a minor faction for a game played by thousands. I just enjoy discussing these things in a relaxed and respectful atmosphere - and getting some more experience with expressing myself in the english language does me a world of good.

[Xisor]

It's not impossible we might happen to devise a uniquely re-applicable, brilliant and elegantly simple solution.

 

It'd be arrogant to assume one of us might, but it's not impossible. To that end: I enjoy going through the thinking behind it. (Academic seems apt, for some Adeptus Mechanicus. Especially to be engaged in violent warfare with those who espouse more... practical approaches to the quest for knowledge...)

 

----

 

So, assuming that Carl's bubble as it stands is left alone (re-roll any to-hit in the shooting phase - which is damned peculiar wording, and I'm confident an unintended [though perhaps not unhappy ] consequence) - how would people feel about a more general (but not identical to Carl's) ability for Archmagos?

 

Strictly, Carl's ability is his Aura of Mars, Archmagos is the Canticles modified.

 

What if that were farmed out?

 

It's not as potent with Mars, but it's certainly potent.

[Stray]

All Forge Worlds already have access to the Archmagos ability - by taking Cawl.

 

Ultimately, he's a very specific, important named character. Such units typically do get assigned special rules that are part of what makes them both unique, and often costly. Why when you can just take him anyway and benefit from the rule if you need it, would you wish him both made more redundant, and to push up the cost of other HQ's?

 

Not only that, doesn't some of the factions flavour get watered down by homogenising abilities and traits?

 

Some more variety in HQ's for Ad Mech would be welcome, but we know already that plans are in place to expand the Ad Mech range in time. I think in the meanwhile, the tools already exist to do very well - and you have no overwhelming restrictions on what you can field from your codex.

 

Some custom paint schemes, or multiple detachments very simply gets around Cawls 'Mars' restriction, while you keep the say 'Stygies' goodness for the rest of your force.

 

(I still believe that if people played a little outside of the '-1' to hit meta, they'd find say, Mars, VERY potent. Their mortal wound output alone can be absolutely devastating - especially for an army with no access to smite outside of soup. Look at what FLG'S Reece did with a Space Marine list at Nova - he cleaned house very convincingly with an army that the community had written off as 'not competitive'... Food for thought.)

[brother_b]

I just want some more HQ options. Data smith is a start. I'd love a Stygies character and some other generic choices.

 

I just don't know what those choices would be. Is there a level of character in the stories or fluff or 30k that would serve? Or maybe being able to take a tech priest and specialize him. I don't know just thinking.

[Heliomanes]

Yeah, it still leaves us with the problem of having units that sorely need a reroll bubble to function properly. There's little sense in recycling Kataphron servitors with Agripinaa, for instance, since they'd need Cawl's bubble and thus the "Mars" keyword to do much of anything in the first place.

[Xisor]

Why when you can just take him anyway and benefit from the rule if you need it, would you wish him both made more redundant, and to push up the cost of other HQ's?

Truthfully, I personally dislike him and think he's a <data corrupted>.

 

I have, however, been vaguely considering a kitbash/conversion to approximate him, and make my own Archmagos Dominum.

 

But I have more interesting ones planned for nothing-to-do-with-Carl, not simply proxying him.

 

Nevertheless, were it not for personal pride, your suggestion would be fairly sound.

 

Not only that, doesn't some of the factions flavour get watered down by homogenising abilities and traits?

Perhaps. But if it goes hand in hand with breathing spirit into the factions' viabilities, I'll accept that.

 

----

 

With HQs, I suppose the general approach might be optimal?

 

E.g.

Tank (Archmagos Dominum)

DPS (Magos Sector, e.g. TPD but with Kataphron/Sicarians weapons)

Healer (Magos Dominum as they are now)

Cheap (Skitarii Commander)

Actual tank (e.g. Dunecrawler Alpha)

Fast Sydonian Magos Secutor

Cheap Gunboat Ballisterii Magos Secutor

 

E.g. going a few fancy but distinct directions. To avoid the risk of giving a no-brained option: disallow the Cheap on-foot Skitarii commandee, only the vehicle folks...

 

Expanding the weapons options would be neat too, but practically there'll still be a handful of optimum choices, so that's more fluff than brilliance.

 

Indeed, allowing free choice over a few profiles might work too.

 

----

 

I'm in danger of proposing 'an HQ for every model!' as I quite fancy an Electropriest HQ and a Sicarian HQ too.

 

But then Knosso Prond now exists, and they are only 25 points...