Templars: One Year In

[Schlitzaf]

In the Post-NoVA World, how do we fair? It’s now been officially a year sense our codex dropped. And most codexes are out. How are we doing?

 

Good:

1) I think our Crusader Squads have aged well this edition. While they remain the best tactical equivalent in the game, (well as said elsewhere, Grey Hunters are about as good). And a core staple in a Templar List. But there is some other issues, I’ll note later.

2) Tactics: Rerolling charged on release was super underwhelming. Now it has grown on me a lot. While I would like a melee buff, to help our boys (Power Weapons armed models specifically getting an additional attack). The tactic has honestly grown on me.

3) Ceno’s And Champion: Being a cheap and useful unlock for a speciality (Vangaurd) Detachment. Both units being solidly points efficient, with the EC being one of the few Marine units that is comparable to Cpt Hammer. The other notable one being a Crimson Fist w/RelicFist. Ceno’s are only 6 points and provide blanket 12” Morale immunity, I never leave home without them.

 

Mediocre:

1) Relic: I love the Crusader’s Helm, and its a solid relic. It’s relavent every single game. But the lack of buffing Warlord Traits is a massive downside. It seems minor but not being able to buff Angel, then lesser extent Battle&Storm, hurts. As often you make 7”-9” Charges, thankfully, Helm keeps you in Rites range. But not in other Warlord trait range. If Angel was affected you could almost always stack a passive -1 and not unreasonably get a -2 with Reivars.

2) Strategem: Abhor is a fine Strategem, one of the best. But it’s super situational and while more reliable then standard denies, doesn’t make it ‘reliable’. It’s design to stop key powers (Warp Times/Null etc) but it’s also our only defense against Smite. It achieves its purpose, but leaves much to be desire.

3) Helbrect: Helbrect is good, but has this issue in that our various unique units and otherwise don’t synergize well. The Helm for example give 1 captain the equivalent aura range of two captains. And wants you to not Marine Bubble. Our Strategem needs CP, which means a Battlelion, but Helbrect wants high elite small model count to fit in his 6” aura. Where Crusaders want either MSU in Razors or large tide squads. The both wasted his strength 5 buff. He isn’t bad. It’s just his design is counter inituitive to how the rest of the army is designed. He is still a solid character with strength 6 d3 damage sword and 2+ save. His greatest weakness in this regard is, taking him over a normal Marshall. Costs you an Emperor’s Champion or Castallen worth of points.

 

The Bad:

1) Warlord Trait: Worst Warlord Trait, while its not useless. It doesn’t add anything. Even the other lackluster traits like Salamander toughness one, or Crimson outnumbering, make a character better. This trait only means we sre more likely to be able to fight if charge. And also troll enemies. Because you cannot advance if you flee meaning most infantry models end less than 6”. And HI checks if opponent made a charge move, not if the charging unit is within 6”. And Wolves having it as chapter Tactics displays how utterly useless this is.

2) Grimaldus: Grimaldus unlike Helbrect is in line with our army design. Focusing on a horde and counter assault. His buff helps a Black Tide list, but compared to a regular chaplain, Grimaldus costs an almost naked castallen more. And his only buff, he has over that castallen is his exploding dice and plasma pistol. He is bluntly not worth the points. Espacially when we are heavily reliant on our characters to carry our day.

3) Terminators&Honor Gaurd; while not useless, they suffer from costing too much or having to small of a squad size. Terminator with Claws, fill a role already done by Crusaders while Terminators with Hammers cost nearly 4 Crusaders but have to coinflip. Another way to see it, a 5 man Aggressor Squad is same 5 Claw Terminators in price. But add far more to our army.

4) Power Fists: Our army most saliant flaw, is high wound high save (3+ or better) models. While Fists would you think be our solution. The issue is that costing a Crusader more in points, and two Crusaders more if you double up. Our lack of mortal wound stacking highlights this even more.

 

The BT Chapter, is undoubtly better off than we were two years ago. And rule wise we are well designed in many ways. Where we blatantly are hurting, is ways to deal with high wound models. Reliant heavily on our characters, to kill them. Our strength remains in the Crusader Squad, and its flexibility.

 

As the edition gone on, while Crusaders excel at cutting down troop caliber threats, the slow and methodical shift to high wound and toughness models, Custodes and Knights. Makes the Crusaders, weaker. Marines in general do best vs high volume chaff or other marine armies. As a marine Bolter or equivalent Fire can wipe 10 Gaurdsman a turn. While even 30 Gaurdsman will only kill 3 marines. (Yes I know those are both 33% casualties. But Marines lose less than the Gaurdsman). Or 14-18 Gaunts etc. And while characters and monsters can be issues. Commissars can be easily taken down in melee at only t3, synapse creatures are over 10 wounds and expensive then lack an IV or high SV, with Ork armies you focus on two squads instead of one.

 

The edition progression to high wound multimodal squads, has hurt Crusaders. And by extension our army. All that said, while we aren’t in an amazing place (we are basically we’re all marine are). We could be worse. Basically my feeling is this edition, over the year has seen a shift from our preferred engagements, to what is the rock to our paper.

[Medjugorje]

almost agree on this terms. I wouldn´t put Crusaders on a good point but Helbrecht on top.

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Since you guys are more familiar, and I haven't been gaming for quite some time now...

Primaris Marines... are they necessary to become competitive in this edition, or can my Crusade chug on its merry way without even bothering with the gargantuan heretical blighters?

[Medjugorje]

Since you guys are more familiar, and I haven't been gaming for quite some time now...

 

Primaris Marines... are they necessary to become competitive in this edition, or can my Crusade chug on its merry way without even bothering with the gargantuan heretical blighters?

hard to say.

I would say you dont need them but they can give you opportunities.

In generel they dont perform better then normal Marines.

[redmapa]

Since you guys are more familiar, and I haven't been gaming for quite some time now...

Primaris Marines... are they necessary to become competitive in this edition, or can my Crusade chug on its merry way without even bothering with the gargantuan heretical blighters?

There was some math done in another thread that showed that intercessors and crusaders are very similar in terms of damage output. So far I think Primaris ARE better but they arent good enough to carry an army so you arent losing a lot by not taking them though that may change when they get more stuff.

[Arganias]

For the Primaris Question, I think they make great support units. I'm running a bit of a black tide list, I use intercessors and Hellblasters to put some fire down range for cover. I have some Reivers, mainly if I need some more deep striking shenanigans. I think for Templars you should be really careful with how much of a commitment to Primaris you go, which is probably the same for Marine armies in general.

 

If you start putting too many units in you need to start adding more Primaris to accommodate the Primaris you have until you have reached a tipping point. That is just my experience and my friend's experience. I think Templars are not too bad off at the moment, mainly because of the Crusader squads flexibility, for me fearless blobs of 14-20 dudes are really hard to move with Grimaldus or the relic banner, or even the fearless warlord trait (depending on how you want to run it). MSU Intercessors provide a cheap , tough troop choice to provide a bit of cover fire and objective holding. I usually run a blob of 14 and 18 then a small Intercessor squad. I don't use primaris officers though.

[Medjugorje]

 

Since you guys are more familiar, and I haven't been gaming for quite some time now...

Primaris Marines... are they necessary to become competitive in this edition, or can my Crusade chug on its merry way without even bothering with the gargantuan heretical blighters?

There was some math done in another thread that showed that intercessors and crusaders are very similar in terms of damage output. So far I think Primaris ARE better but they arent good enough to carry an army so you arent losing a lot by not taking them though that may change when they get more stuff.

 

this is not true... in close combat they are close - Intercessors are a bit better but Intercessors are stronger if you compare them in shooting and melee.

[Medjugorje]

So far my games getting always harder to win. The opponent lists are getting hard to beat. Some units are death if any enemie unit look into the same direction.

[Kallas]

1) Warlord Trait: [...] And HI checks if opponent made a charge move, not if the charging unit is within 6”.

First off, I'm not disagreeing that it's a weak Warlord trait. I'm currently using the Wolf Codex for my Howling Griffons and the 6" HI is excellent, but I wouldn't use it if it were just my Warlord.

 

The part I quoted I either misread or you misunderstood how HI works. It doesn't require the enemy to charge at all - as long as an enemy unit is within 6" at the end of their Charge Phase, your Warlord will be able to move up to 6", providing they end their move closer to the nearest enemy model (and not necessarily on the closest path, so you can potentially scoot around a bit to get at something further away; easiest with Jump Packs).

 

Again, it's definitely bad as a Warlord trait, just wanted to clarify that bit

[Schlitzaf]

I mean I got into a debate with someone that if you declare no charges you skip the charge phrase. So RAI v RAW, I suppose. On that topic.

 

Intercessors v Crusaders; they are functionally equivalent. Crusaders when taking Equal Init/Neo are more or less the same offensively a tad weaker at range and less projection due to shorter range. But in melee a tide squad to slightly better than Intercessors. Or the Intercessors are 2 5 Man with PowSwords. In which case they are the same functionally. And primary the defense is between what you are shooting/attacked with. As Plasma and anti-Heavy Armor Crusaders are better while anti infantry (boltgun/lasgun) Intercessors are.

 

MSU Crusaders with heavy/special/special deal with heavy armor better with multi damage weapons while Intercessors hurt medium to light armor (Marines to Gaurdsman). It’s one of the biggest ‘sidegrades’ Templars and Wolves have this edition, is our tactical equivalent was unrivaled by anything other chapter or non cult/ordos power armor could take. But Intercessors are now more or less equal to a Crusader/Grey hunter squad.

[Kallas]

I mean I got into a debate with someone that if you declare no charges you skip the charge phrase. So RAI v RAW, I suppose. On that topic

I'd challenge someone to find actual rules that say to skip the phase! Whether or not someone declares any charges is entirely removed from whether a Charge Phase happens.

[Kilamandaros]

That's been FAQ'd now, the charge phase always happens on every players turn regardless of whether they charge or not.

 

Beyond that, we are simply not a competitive army and haven't been since the index, nor can I foresee us being competitive for the rest of the edition or beyond unfortunately. Getting lumped into the vanilla marine codex means we are right down with the likes of Iron Hands, Imperial Fists & co as some of the worst factions in the game. Even harder for us, is that we're a combat army focused into a codex that's all about shooting. All the best units, stratagems and tactics are focused on the shooting phase, leaving us in the mud unless we stick Helbrecht in the middle of a gunline and try and join in. We have some decent characters in Helbrecht and the Emperor's Champ, and the Crusader Squad gives some versatility but beyond that we are in a very bad place.

 

I've given up on competitive with my Templars and now just play them in narrative and fluff-driven games, which has let me rediscover the game somewhat. If you try and build them to take to tournaments etc. you'll just end up frustrated with the game as you get stomped by the likes of knights and eldar-soup.

 

My two credits.

[Schlitzaf]

Basically their is on two debatably three competitive reasons to take Templars

-Crusader Squads, MSU FauxDevi Variant. ObSec troop unit that can put out roughly the equivalent firepower to 2/3 Weapon Devi Squad. Tide Crusaders require significant investments (relatively) and need to a massive portion of your force (needing atleast 3 14-16 man squads, Cenos and 2 characters which is 750 point investment).

-Scouts w/Templar Strategem. Used to deny powers like warp time t1.

-Champion&Cenos. Can be used to cheaply fill a Vangaurd Detachment getting a good backrow unit and a character who can pull his weight.

 

Of these only the second is what you see competitively. Through one happens every now and again. Basically Templars best has is filling battlelion detachments because we have above average Tacticals and a good Strategem competitively

[Medjugorje]

its like it ever used to be... There is still hope that GW changes a bit. Right now i still have hope into CA2018