What could Chapter Approved do?

[Schlitzaf]

I think Guardsmen, Cultists and other similar units will indeed go up.

 

Could make conscripts appealing once again.

There is no real reason. And before you say 3Gaurd > 1 Marine. That isn’t exactly the case. On the tabletop 10 Marines > 30 Gaurdsman. Sense Marines get one good round of Rapid in = 1 Squad dead due to battle shock. And just due to other ways the engagement plays out the Marines will handily win. What however isn’t the case most marine codexes have poor internal synergy beside various degrees of rerolls.

 

Where Infantry squads within the gaurd codex do.

[Ishagu]

Because they are too cheap and efficient at generating CP, and orders make them very flexible?

 

A 4 point guardsman can shoot 4 times or travel 20" in a single turn.

 

There is no way that 10 Marines are better than 30 Guardsmen also. Just the board countrol and CP generated makes the Guard better, never mind their mobility and durability (can be spread out, Los blocking, multiple units etc)

[TheUbikator]

Because they are too cheap and efficient at generating CP, and orders make them very flexible?

 

A 4 point guardsman can shoot 4 times or travel 20" in a single turn.

 

4 point guardsmen buffed by 20 point officer can shoot 4 times with S3 and BS4+. Or they move twice with advance. But still, they have Ld7, T3 and Sv5+. anything just looks at them the wrong way they die.

 

The problem lies with marines poor stats, not guardsmen. I've been saying it for over a year now. All Marines (except Primaris who should get either points reduction or some FNP) should have 1 more wound than they have now.

 

3 wound termies would be useful, 2 wound tac marines would be useful.

 

You are lashing against infantry squad because it's a good choice in great codex with good internal balance, compared to all SM codices which have 2 - 5 good units choices and terrible internal balance.

[Ishagu]

Leadership doesn't matter, and no one is upset about losing 2/3 models that cost 4 points each.

 

For the record, I'm not suggesting Guard are simply nerfed. They need to adjust ALL units and boost the ones that see less play, and especially tweak the FW options.

[TheUbikator]

Leadership doesn't matter, and no one is upset about losing 2/3 models that cost 4 points each.

 

For the record, I'm not suggesting Guard are simply nerfed. They need to adjust ALL units and boost the ones that see less play, and especially tweak the FW options.

 

Leadership doesn't matter? Are you nuts? 

 

Not every squad will be in the range of a commissar to get a buff, and after losing 4 guys you can potentially lose 3 more.

 

It's easy to kill 4 - 5 guards in each squad, and after morale, they won't be doing so much.

 

Have you even played guard? Not against, actually played guard (not loyal 32) this edition?

 

 

Nerfing units that are played (because they are decent choices) isn't going to make marines better. Because marines have poor stats. Making good units bad so they'll be on par with bad units isn't a solution.

 

Marines are in dire need of rules rewrite - full stop.

 

If GW increases Guardsmen to 5ppm I will stop playing 40k. I've had enough of stupid design, and random nerfs.

[Ishagu]

I actually play against various Guard armies more than most opponents. I don't thinm they are overpowered as a mono faction but excel in areas that perhaps they shouldn't.

 

I'd certainly change a lot about the army to make certain aspects better.

[TheUbikator]

I actually play against various Guard armies more than most opponents. I don't thinm they are overpowered as a mono faction but excel in areas that perhaps they shouldn't.

 

I'd certainly change a lot about the army to make certain aspects better.

 

And as someone who plays both marines and guard, I'll tell you that the last thing Infantry squad needs is a cost increase. 

 

 

And apart from saying "I think this should cost this much" and "I would change this and this" you can't put any arguments or explanation of your claims.

 

God, I hope you don't have any influence on design and balance of 8th ed... but if you have, that would certainly explain why 8th edition become such a bloated contrived mess GW told us it wouldn't be.

[Panzer]

 

I actually play against various Guard armies more than most opponents. I don't thinm they are overpowered as a mono faction but excel in areas that perhaps they shouldn't.

 

I'd certainly change a lot about the army to make certain aspects better.

 

And as someone who plays both marines and guard, I'll tell you that the last thing Infantry squad needs is a cost increase. 

 

 

And apart from saying "I think this should cost this much" and "I would change this and this" you can't put any arguments or explanation of your claims.

 

God, I hope you don't have any influence on design and balance of 8th ed... but if you have, that would certainly explain why 8th edition become such a bloated contrived mess GW told us it wouldn't be.

 

 

I think it's time to calm down a bit. Ishagu isn't really saying that Guardsmen need a points increase. Just that they are proportionally better than Marines. We have tons of threads about how to fix Marines and Ishagu is one of the people who defend the point of Marines needing some points reductions the most (along with many other things which are unfortunately unlikely to happen).

I don't always agree with him about how to fix Marines but I'd rather have him an influence on design and balance than many others.

 

 

I think Guardsmen, Cultists and other similar units will indeed go up.

 

Could make conscripts appealing once again.

There is no real reason. And before you say 3Gaurd > 1 Marine. That isn’t exactly the case. On the tabletop 10 Marines > 30 Gaurdsman. Sense Marines get one good round of Rapid in = 1 Squad dead due to battle shock. And just due to other ways the engagement plays out the Marines will handily win. 

 

 

Eh we had that discussion not too long ago in another thread. If I recall correctly it ended with you repeating that example for one or two pages and nobody agreeing with you. I still don't agree with you there.

[Ratherdashing]

Just another beer and pretzels gamer here voting that 8th is messy and could do with some simple fixes but is still probably my favorite edition so far.

[Schlitzaf]

Because people cannot do math. They ask “but why do gaurdsman spread out”. Like they literally forgot that models take up space on the board and how pytheorem works.

[TheUbikator]

 

 

I actually play against various Guard armies more than most opponents. I don't thinm they are overpowered as a mono faction but excel in areas that perhaps they shouldn't.

 

I'd certainly change a lot about the army to make certain aspects better.

 

And as someone who plays both marines and guard, I'll tell you that the last thing Infantry squad needs is a cost increase. 

 

 

And apart from saying "I think this should cost this much" and "I would change this and this" you can't put any arguments or explanation of your claims.

 

God, I hope you don't have any influence on design and balance of 8th ed... but if you have, that would certainly explain why 8th edition become such a bloated contrived mess GW told us it wouldn't be.

 

 

I think it's time to calm down a bit. Ishagu isn't really saying that Guardsmen need a points increase. Just that they are proportionally better than Marines. We have tons of threads about how to fix Marines and Ishagu is one of the people who defend the point of Marines needing some points reductions the most (along with many other things which are unfortunately unlikely to happen).

I don't always agree with him about how to fix Marines but I'd rather have him an influence on design and balance than many others.

 

 

But this is precisely what he says - in order to make marines great again we need to increase the costs of Infantry Squads, Cultists etc.

 

It won't solve anything. It will make above-mentioned units worse, and marines will not get better in no way shape or form.

 

I'm all for decreasing costs of Marines in CA, but I'm sick of random nerfs to guard. They nerfed vets to the ground, conscripts and commissars (until they fixed them in the 1st big faq). 

 

The problem is not with the guard. Guard needs no more adjustments (except 3ppm conscripts and 5ppm vets). The problem we are facing today is with OP Knights and BA strategems who are OP because you can spam them throughout the entire game. And that the new AP system, wounding system, morale system favours heavily hordes while putting elite armies rely completely on invs or character who can't be shot at.

 

There are too many AP -1 and AP -3 high rate of fire weaponry in the game to make expansive one wound T4 Sv 3+ models who rely on their saves for marines to be viable. You can make them cheaper but it will either be not enough or too much.

[Brother Casman]

Since we've gone back to the same debates that we've had since 8th dropped, I'm thinking it's time to wrap this up. We're going to have to wait for Chapter Approved 2018 to drop, or some actual news.