Successor Chapters and the future

[Cpt_Reaper]

As I am sure you're all aware, Unforgiven Successors don't get a lot of options. We get a Heavenfall Blade and no other relics. We have no Ravenwing Masters and no access to Chapter Masters. All because our models aren't green.

 

Just wishlisting here but I'd love to see Chapter Approved fix this. I doubt it's likely but who knows.

[FlamingDeth]

What about all those other relics? They might not be quite as good but they're still there. As far as the special characters go, at least we have two flavors of Ravenwing masters -- if you're not keen on a jetbike it's reasonable to assume that the chapter has land speeders. That leaves Azrael, but having one inflexible character isn't a terrible situation for a specialized codex.

 

I have no expectations of them ever adding in DIY 2nd co masters/chapter masters for the entire existence of the company, much less in their annual tweaking book.

[Cpt_Reaper]

That's the thing, Successors aren't allowed to use ANY named characters and it explicitly states they may only use Heavenfall blades.

 

You can't even swap the Keyword to Dark Angels. If your models aren't green you're locked out.

[FlamingDeth]

I've never once heard of people following that at all. If anyone tries enforcing that you might need to find a new gaming group.

[Cpt_Reaper]

It is a rule in the Codex. Friendly game or not.

[Panzer]

You can't even swap the Keyword to Dark Angels. If your models aren't green you're locked out.

 

That's simply not true. There exists no rule in any Codex, rulebook, CA, FAQ, Errata or elsewhere for warhammer that tells people how to paint their models. If you don't want to follow that riddiculous successor chapter rule just use them as the parent chapter with a different colour scheme.

Literally(!) the only armies who have a problem with that are the ones who have special characters with a successor chapter keyword like Seth for Flesh Tearers for example since those armies would have to decide between using Seth or using everything everybody else who uses the Blood Angel keyword can use.

[Kinstryfe]

Silver Dark Angels? Special paint with anti radiation coating for this mission.

Red Dark Angels? A company repainted their armour in mourning for a lost brother.

Black Dark Angels? 30k scheme.

White Dark Angels? Turns out the whole company is part of the Deathwing after Brother Cassiel couldn't hold his liquor with the visiting Space Wolves.

Brown Dark Angels? They're just really dirty from going off-roading.

Etc etc etc

 

If anyone tries to tell you that you can't be playing Dark Angels because your minis are the wrong colour, you had better 1) refuse their army any benefits unless all models are clearly painted and 2) not play that person.

[Xenith]

Codex successors use the keyword for their parent chapter.

 

Paint them as whatever successor you like and use the DARK ANGEL keyword...just like people have for the past 20 years. 

[Slasher956]

 

You can't even swap the Keyword to Dark Angels. If your models aren't green you're locked out.

 

That's simply not true. There exists no rule in any Codex, rulebook, CA, FAQ, Errata or elsewhere for warhammer that tells people how to paint their models. If you don't want to follow that riddiculous successor chapter rule just use them as the parent chapter with a different colour scheme.

Literally(!) the only armies who have a problem with that are the ones who have special characters with a successor chapter keyword like Seth for Flesh Tearers for example since those armies would have to decide between using Seth or using everything everybody else who uses the Blood Angel keyword can use.

 

Its been mentioned that the latest Tournament rules do state that you cant use the rules /subfaction rules /codex if your painted differently... trying to find it again now

 

- page 3

 

 

 

If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect

you to use the rules relevant to that scheme

[Panzer]

That's a tournament/houserule tho. Also it's more about "if you've painted your models as Blood Angels use Blood Angels rules and not Ultramarines". It's not necessarily about Successor Chapters.

[JJD]

 

 

You can't even swap the Keyword to Dark Angels. If your models aren't green you're locked out.

 

 

That's simply not true. There exists no rule in any Codex, rulebook, CA, FAQ, Errata or elsewhere for warhammer that tells people how to paint their models. If you don't want to follow that riddiculous successor chapter rule just use them as the parent chapter with a different colour scheme.

Literally(!) the only armies who have a problem with that are the ones who have special characters with a successor chapter keyword like Seth for Flesh Tearers for example since those armies would have to decide between using Seth or using everything everybody else who uses the Blood Angel keyword can use.

Its been mentioned that the latest Tournament rules do state that you cant use the rules /subfaction rules /codex if your painted differently... trying to find it again now

 

- page 3

 

 

If you have painted your models in a specific way, we expect

you to use the rules relevant to that scheme

If your army is painted and modeled as Ultramarines but you want to use BA rules I can see that as being an issue. But surely playing an army painted and modeled as unforgiven as DA should be fine especially when the codex has no access to generic Chapter master

[Slasher956]

Its a GW published document so contradicts your statement that no rule exists for Warhammer.... now it is for a specific purpose (the GT 2018/2019 season release last month) but other tournaments could use it.

 

Also its if you've painted as Flesh Tearers then its flesh tearers or nothing.... if you've made up a successor chapter then yes fill your boots... but if you've used a GW paint scheem then you must use those rules ... IF you are using the GT rule pack

 

(ok the forum didnt include my link to the document sorry)

 

ps - for the record I think its a silly rule!

[Panzer]

Yeah I know where it's from and I did forget about it, however I wouldn't have counted it even if I would've remembered it since it's not part of the actual ruleset and only for tournaments who decide to use that pack. Call it official houserules if you will. I would have worded my statement slightly differently tho, I admit.

[Berzul]

I would understand a tournament organizer to demand Successors play without characters, traits or relics from the parent chapter.

 

But it would not be a tournament I'd choose to go to. I mean, c'mon. Don't you think a rule can go too far?

 

As for gaming groups, if your group demands you play the sucessors with such limitations, then yeah, that might be a good reason to broaden your horizons, maybe? I have played successors all my life, but aside from not playing the characters (for personal reasons of consistency), I have never seen a player be against allowing my successors to just play as Dark Angels, and take the relics, traits, formations, units, or whatever that I want from the Codex.

 

Seriously, it is a game after all. Its supposed to be fun wish fulfillment.

 

I mean, whose to say my successors cannot be led by a guy just as tough as Belial, or Sammael, or Azrael? Or store a relic that has the properties equivalent to the Shroud of Heroes, or the Eye of the Unseen, or the Mace of Redepmtion?

[Panzer]

 

I mean, whose to say my successors cannot be led by a guy just as tough as Belial, or Sammael, or Azrael? Or store a relic that has the properties equivalent to the Shroud of Heroes, or the Eye of the Unseen, or the Mace of Redepmtion?

 

Hell, in the past editions GW even put a sentence in the books that says exactly this.

[BlackTriton]

I may paint my plastic in the disciple of caliban colors, with the disciple of caliban chapter badge and with disciple of caliban squad markings.

Nobody ever heard me call them disciple of caliban. To anyone concern they are dark angels.

Anybody who ask why my dark Angels are of an unexpected color clearly has been misinformed of the first legion heraldry. Emperor knows there is a lot of misinformation out there.

 

Now if I was playing disciple of caliban that would be something else, but I am playing Dark Angels.

[Panzer]

I may paint my plastic in the disciple of caliban colors, with the disciple of caliban chapter badge and with disciple of caliban squad markings.

Nobody ever heard me call them disciple of caliban. To anyone concern they are dark angels.

Anybody who ask why my dark Angels are of an unexpected color clearly has been misinformed of the first legion heraldry. Emperor knows there is a lot of misinformation out there.

 

Now if I was playing disciple of caliban that would be something else, but I am playing Dark Angels.

 

Yeah I can't believe so many people think Blood Angels are red either when mine are obviously painted silver with only some red details! 

[Cpt_Reaper]

Can we not immediately jump on the "if your group does X, get a new group"? I don't have that option and neither do a lot of people.

 

It is a rule in my codex, and rules are meant to be followed in a wargame. I don't like the rule, which is why I started this topic. Surely if Unforgiven players ask then GW will either change the rule or give Successors more options via the Big FAQ or Chapter Approved. After all, isn't that the purpose of those documents?

[Kinstryfe]

Can we not immediately jump on the "if your group does X, get a new group"? I don't have that option and neither do a lot of people.

 

It is a rule in my codex, and rules are meant to be followed in a wargame. I don't like the rule, which is why I started this topic. Surely if Unforgiven players ask then GW will either change the rule or give Successors more options via the Big FAQ or Chapter Approved. After all, isn't that the purpose of those documents?

If they've ruled against it for tournaments, don't expect them to un-rule it. I don't think there has been a ruling this edition based on tourney observation that made things /less/ rigid. If obvious counts-as doesn't work and your group is taking this to heart, then you have to either change their minds, play without the benefits of DARK ANGELS, or repaint your army. I just hope you hold the same standard to any opponents to make it fair.

[Cpt_Reaper]

My local gaming circle is split into the hardcore WAAC group and the friendly gamers. But both adhere to the idea that if it's good enough for tournaments it's good enough for friendly games.

 

I do play without access to named Characters as well as only using a single Heavenfall blade. If I came up against a Codex that also places a restriction of sub-factions then I would expect it to be followed.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Instead of just wishlisting here and roughing feathers by having people to disagree in this subject, why not start an online petition and or hit GW forums/Chapter approved with that idea?

 

For me I totally ignore that rule because of past editions and because it is so open to interpretation. I mean, can someone really forbid me to enter a tournament because my DA have a bone white shoulder pad? Can really someone refuse to play me if my Azrael and vets have red robes?

[Panzer]

Can we not immediately jump on the "if your group does X, get a new group"? I don't have that option and neither do a lot of people.

 

It is a rule in my codex, and rules are meant to be followed in a wargame. I don't like the rule, which is why I started this topic. Surely if Unforgiven players ask then GW will either change the rule or give Successors more options via the Big FAQ or Chapter Approved. After all, isn't that the purpose of those documents?

 

Really? What Codex has the rule in it that forces you to paint your models in a specific colour to use a specific ruleset? Fluff descriptions are not(!) rules.

 

My local gaming circle is split into the hardcore WAAC group and the friendly gamers. But both adhere to the idea that if it's good enough for tournaments it's good enough for friendly games.

 

I do play without access to named Characters as well as only using a single Heavenfall blade. If I came up against a Codex that also places a restriction of sub-factions then I would expect it to be followed.

 

That's honestly ridiculous. Tournaments are the exact opposite of friendly games and there are special tournament houserules because it's different from friendly games.

Better be prepared to be disappointed then because the vast majority of people use the parent chapter keyword for their successor chapters unless there's a successor chapter named character they want to use. I for one would refuse to play anyone who tries to tell me that I can't use my army as Blood Angels just because I painted them not the way GW painted them.

Seriously, what's about the people who have their Blood Angels or other chapter for years from a time when the official GW colour scheme and heraldry was different? Are they suddenly not allowed to use their rules anymore because they didn't re-paint their whole army when GW decided to change things? Yeah good luck trying to explain that to those players and then still have a game with them.

[Cpt_Reaper]

Rules are rules. Choosing to ignore a rule, no matter the reasoning, is cheating.

 

So from this point on, let this thread be a proof of concept for a request for GW to make some changes to the Dark Angels Codex.

 

To begin, the rules in question:

• Dark Angels Successor Chapters, Page 74: If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels successor Chapter, simply substitute the 'Dark Angels' keyword on every data sheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor Chapter. Note, however, you cannot do this for named characters - for example, Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.
• Relics of the Chapter, Page 139: If your army is led by a Warlord from a Dark Angels successor Chapter, then before the battle you may instead give one Character from that Chapter a Heavenfall Blade.

The problem is that, as written, these rules restrict the use of units and Relics due to paint jobs without giving anything back. Dark Angels successor Chapters do not have access to a Master of the Ravenwing equivalent, nor a Chapter Master as well as forced to only take a single Relic.

 

Through the use of Chapter Approved, the following changes could be implemented to address these issues:

• Introduction of the Keyword <Unforgiven Successor>. The purpose of this Keyword is to provide unit options to Dark Angels successors that are unavailable to the Dark Angels themselves.
• Introduction of a Master of the First unit, which provides a Master of the Deathwing equivalent to Dark Angels successors.
• Introduction of a Master of the Second unit, which provides a Master of the Ravenwing equivalent to Dark Angels successors.
• Introduction of a Master of the First unit, which provides a Master of the Deathwing equivalent to Dark Angels successors.
• Removal of the restriction of Relic choices for Dark Angels successor Chapters.

What other changes could be made? Once we think no more can be done I will send GW the compiled list of changes.

[Panzer]

Rules are rules. Choosing to ignore a rule, no matter the reasoning, is cheating.

 

So from this point on, let this thread be a proof of concept for a request for GW to make some changes to the Dark Angels Codex.

 

To begin, the rules in question:

• Dark Angels Successor Chapters, Page 74: If a unit is drawn from a Dark Angels successor Chapter, simply substitute the 'Dark Angels' keyword on every data sheet with the name of your Dark Angels successor Chapter. Note, however, you cannot do this for named characters - for example, Azrael is the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels Chapter, and not any successor Chapter.
• Relics of the Chapter, Page 139: If your army is led by a Warlord from a Dark Angels successor Chapter, then before the battle you may instead give one Character from that Chapter a Heavenfall Blade.

The problem is that, as written, these rules restrict the use of units and Relics due to paint jobs without giving anything back. Dark Angels successor Chapters do not have access to a Master of the Ravenwing equivalent, nor a Chapter Master as well as forced to only take a single Relic.

 

 

Yeah but we're trying to tell you that there IS NO RULE that tells people how to paint their models. If you say that your army is a successor chapter then sucks to be you but if you say your army are Dark Angels with a different colour scheme then there's literally nothing that prevents you from using anything Dark Angels can use.

 

Keyword != Colour scheme

One is crunch the other is fluff.

[Bryan Blaire]

My version of 40K that I interact with and play with friends has the Dark Angels using a green and black color scheme with a burning downward pointed sword with black wings.

 

Now, how do you expect to apply your rule again? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

 

Seriously, there is no reason for this argument. If your group is that rigid, don't expect GW to change things for one ultra-rigid group. And it doesn't sound that enjoyable to play with, and if I were you, I'd start inspecting the color of those pauldron rims and damn near any other little paint thing to make sure that your opponent isn't using too many units from one company, otherwise those have to go, wrong color bolters from the "official scheme", better remove those units from your list, they aren't valid, etc.