Flyers worthwhile competitively?

[lash144]

Inspired by the thread about the Stormraven I took a closer look at our flyers to see if they are worth it in a competitive environment.

 

I find the point costs for a Stormraven pretty high since it is not really that hard to kill and I feel I'm paying a premium for a good transport capacity which I'm most likely not using.

 

Then I took a look at our Stormhawk Interceptor and im quite intrigued tbh for under 200 pts you get 2 Assault Canons, 2 HBs and 2 quasi Las Talons on a pretty durable platform (T7 +3 rerolling saves of 1 and of course -1 to hit)

 

The only drawback I see that it can't mitigate the movement penalty for moving with it's heavy weapons since it can't even hover. Hitting on a 4+ is not that bad which so many shots, but if it starts to degrade it could become somewhat problematic.

 

So what's your feedback on our flyers? Worth wile? Everything that I missed?

 

P.S.: Am mostly looking for flyers with a lot of Dakka to clean screens for my Jumppack dudes.

[Panzer]

Aside from the Stormraven I wouldn't take any of our Codex flyer for competetive matches. No clue about Forgeworld stuff.

The thing with flyer is that they always draw attention so they either need to be durable or devastating (or both) so the ones you actually want in your list will always cost lots of points. Cheap flyer just pay too much for being flyer without bringing much else to the table usually.

 

If you want to clear screens I'd recommend Primaris Inceptors over the Stormhawk to be honest.

 

Edit for clarity

[Vykes]

I outright refuse to use codex flyers because I hate how they look, but in general they're a more effective/efficient than the FW stuff. 

 

Storm Eagles are delicious, and I have 6 spread between two armies, but they're more pricey and far less flexible than Storm Ravens, while having a pseudo-less transport capacity (20 is great, if you plan on using it. But the Raven's 12+dread makes up for that), and a variable shot gun makes it hit or miss.  The lack of hurricane bolter options also really degrades their anti-troop capabilities.  I love 'em to death but they're too pricey for a minimally more survivable platform with less fire support.  The twin-las cannons can make it a decent pinch-hunter, but there's a better option in a sense. 

 

The Xiphons are a nice flying predator, with a decent amount of wounds (a surprise given how flimsy their 30K/7E frames were), but they got a fairly significant downgrade in the form of their xiphon rotary missile launcher.  They are good, and fill the roll of a flying predator which can hit better as they have a sort of quasi-machine spirit rule.  A bit points pricey given how many things get a plus to hit flyers, but balanced out by hard to hit and a decent anti-tank arsenal.  If you're up against other flyers, it's not a bad craft at all as it suffers no penalties to hit, and gains a bonus against flying targets making it imminently capable of blowing up clones of itself.  I'd say not worth it compared to the Stormhawk for air-to-ground but air-to-air you can do a whole lot worse. 

 

Fire Raptors (I only have one for my Sons of Horus/Chaos marines these days, but I had two Angel Raptors for a while).  They're good, not great, but good, albeit grossly overpriced.  They aren't bad at clearing out light screens with a pair of quad heavy bolters and the twin avenger cannons spitting out that much D1 and D2 wounds, and they have an alright anti-tank weapon in the two twin-las or hellstrikes.  It's just grotesquely overpriced for not having a dedicated air-to-ground rule. 

 

Thunderhawks aren't flyers.... I mean, they're seriously terrible too, but it's a weird thing to note that them and Stormbirds are Lord of War types that just so happen to fly. y'know, for the record. 

 

In general, the codex options are quite a bit better, even if I think they're goofy. I don't build or own anything on the merits of 'effectiveness' so take that as you will, but I down own what I think looks awesome. 

[tychobi]

I get decent utility out of my storm raven. It either sops up the enemy shooting round 1 and goes boom or flys around blasting stuff and making my scouts super mobile. I have taken to starting it empty and loading up as it flys up map in case i go second. I am grat at rolling 1s! Leapfrog capt and lieutenant to make its guns count early

[Aothaine]

I don't really like the aesthetics of the GW space marine flyers. I really like the fire Raptor and they are very expensive. But you can build a list around a flyer wing of them. I wouldn't do it in friendly games though. Just remember that Imperial flyers pale in comparison to Eldar & Dark Eldar flyers. They are still very strong, but they are always expensive.

 

I'm debating on taking a list to the LVO with three Fire Raptors in it right now. Still not entirely sure though. 

[Xenith]

The storm hawk as I remember has a lot more firepower than a Baal predator and costs less.

 

It gets the 2 assault cannons, 2 heavy bolters the Baal does, with a storm cannon on top, along with -1 to hit, reroll saves of 1, and +1 to hit fliers, all for a single wound less then the Baal.

 

I would say that if you wanted a predator of any kind in your army, the storm hawk is objectively better in every way.

[Semirhagge]

I would honestly say that the stormtalon gunship is an amazing option. It’s got the same firepower as a Baal pred so it’s good at clearing infantry, it flys and costs less points wise I think. It mitigates it’s movment penalty as well with the strafing run ability. I take 2 religiously and wish I had 3.

[Panzer]

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

[micahwc]

I've used a xiphon a lot in my chaos list and I really like it. Although if I remember right the chaos one is slightly more mobile being able to turn at the beginning and the end of its movement.

[Semirhagge]

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

Seems aggressive to call it not smart. The Baal Pred May not be good but a lot of people like what it does. So for a model that costs less, flys, has the SAME exact weapons when equipped with heavy bolters, I see no comparison issues. Besides Stormtalons look good in red.

[Panzer]

 

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

Seems aggressive to call it not smart. The Baal Pred May not be good but a lot of people like what it does. So for a model that costs less, flys, has the SAME exact weapons when equipped with heavy bolters, I see no comparison issues. Besides Stormtalons look good in red.

 

 

Well I could have called it a whole lot of other, more mean, things. Calling it not smart was actually my attempt to be nice about it lol

[Aothaine]

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

 

She! Vehicles are shes! lol! 

[Panzer]

 

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

 

She! Vehicles are shes! lol! 

 

 

Well in german "the tank" is "Der Panzer" which is a male pronoun hence my slip up. Normally I would've typed "it" anyway. :P

[Vykes]

I've used a xiphon a lot in my chaos list and I really like it. Although if I remember right the chaos one is slightly more mobile being able to turn at the beginning and the end of its movement.

 

The free movement at the beginning is the Hellblade, Xiphons are exactly the same as the loyalists.  They're also weird in they have an 18-60" movement that doesn't degrade and an invul save.  Weird weird vehicles. 

[Aothaine]

 

 

Well in german "the tank" is "Der Panzer" which is a male pronoun hence my slip up. Normally I would've typed "it" anyway.

 

 

That is super interesting! Thank you for sharing that sfPanzer! Do all vehicles in German use the male identification?

 

Also, on the topic of flyers being competitive. Yes they are. But you have to be careful how you use them. Remember if your opponent clears your units on the ground then you lose the game. Flyers are very mobile transports/gunboats but even though they have a lot of benefits over tanks they still have weaknesses. 

[Ornithologist]

My understanding of German, 4 years in High school many years ago - with no follow up or use:

 

some vehicles are male, and some are female, and some are neuter. Like the rest of the language.

 

Also, I fully expect to be corrected by someone who actually speaks the language.

 

back on topic, I wish flyer's had a bit more use in the current meta. But I like SR's the most. 

[Panzer]

 

some vehicles are male, and some are female, and some are neuter. Like the rest of the language.

 

 

That's correct. Depending on which word you use it can change even. For example "the train" could be "die Bahn" (female) or "der Zug" (male). There are no real rules for when to use which pronoun in german so you have to memorize it all like regular vocables.

Tho there is a thing that ships are always female. That has nothing to do with the pronoun at all, it's just a thing. I guess that's what Aothaine meant originally and I just explained how my slip up probably happened.

That's enough offtopic tho! :P

[lash144]

Aside from the Stormraven I wouldn't take any of our Codex flyer for competetive matches. No clue about Forgeworld stuff.

The thing with flyer is that they always draw attention so they either need to be durable or devastating (or both) so the ones you actually want in your list will always cost lots of points. Cheap flyer just pay too much for being flyer without bringing much else to the table usually.

 

If you want to clear screens I'd recommend Primaris Inceptors over the Stormhawk to be honest.

 

Edit for clarity

Do you support them with some characters or do you just run them on their own relying on their high number of shots?

I don't know why but always when I'm thinking about BA Primaris I wanna somehow include the FnP banner ^^.

[Xenith]

 

some vehicles are male, and some are female, and some are neuter. Like the rest of the language.

 

 

The Baal Predator was 100% neutered. 

 

Ba-Dum, Tish!

 

 

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

 

I think you absolutely have to compare them, in the same way that Baals are invariably compared to Razorbacks, which are also cheaper for more wounds and the same firepower. 

 

That the Baal is so overcosted makes the fliers the competitive choice.

[lash144]

 

 

It's honestly not very smart to compare things to the Baal Pred considering he's an overcosted Predator which aren't among the actual good tanks in the game in the first place anyway. ^^

 

I think you absolutely have to compare them, in the same way that Baals are invariably compared to Razorbacks, which are also cheaper for more wounds and the same firepower. 

 

That the Baal is so overcosted makes the fliers the competitive choice.

 

 

I have to disagree there. Just because a unit is better than a an obvious bad choice doesn´t make it good automatically.

[Morticon]

Gonna chip in and say I see both sides here. 

The Baal is our "go-to" and a lot of people will try look to fill a similar role based on how it works and has worked in our lists.  I think its a viable comparison in this regard. 

Some frater are not necessarily comparing it to the best option and most competitive option available, they're comparing it to a playstyle theyre used to for their BA. 

 

(and it was aggressive <_< - be nicer! ) 

[Panzer]

 

Aside from the Stormraven I wouldn't take any of our Codex flyer for competetive matches. No clue about Forgeworld stuff.

The thing with flyer is that they always draw attention so they either need to be durable or devastating (or both) so the ones you actually want in your list will always cost lots of points. Cheap flyer just pay too much for being flyer without bringing much else to the table usually.

 

If you want to clear screens I'd recommend Primaris Inceptors over the Stormhawk to be honest.

 

Edit for clarity

Do you support them with some characters or do you just run them on their own relying on their high number of shots?

I don't know why but always when I'm thinking about BA Primaris I wanna somehow include the FnP banner ^^.

 

 

Character support makes everything better of course but I do think at least the Bolter variant is good on its own when you play a pure Primaris army since there you don't have access to mobile Captains unfortunately. For Plasma Inceptors you really want a Captain nearby tho!

 

(and it was aggressive - be nicer! ) 

 

As you wish. 

[lash144]

I'm not playing pure Primaris and I'm definitely not playing them with their Plasma, since I'm looking for some Dakka to clean screens and such things.

[Xenith]

(and it was aggressive - be nicer! ) 

 

Heh, Der SFPanzer already has his mitigating circumstances in his signature...

 

 

 

 

I have to disagree there. Just because a unit is better than a an obvious bad choice doesn´t make it good automatically.

 

You're getting into semantics, really, but yes, if you have to choose between two units, and you declare one of them is bad, then the other one has to be good by comparison. We have limited unit options in the codex, so if you rule out the 'bad' units like the predator, then remainder have to be good.

 

It's not helpful saying that scouts are bad because guardsmen and chaos cultists are better when we can not take either of those units in a BA detachment.

 

Your argument was framed in terms of the BA codex, but are you actually considering allies etc? Are we comparing BA fliers to other fliers, or anti troop options within the codex?

[lash144]

Let us not argue about such small details and better return to the topic. 

 

To your last question: As I said in my first post I´m looking for an efficent way to remove screens for my Jumppack units, so they can get to the real juicy targets. And you are right I dont want to include allies, let alone non Imperial factions in my comparison. 

So there is not just the Baal Pred but also things like Inceptors, Razorbacks, Aggressors etc.

 

Panzer suggested I should use Inceptors, which I have no experience with yet, so I might try them. But I´m also open for other suggestions! 

 

 

Edit: Including FW, so things like the Sicaran Punisher should also be considered.