Flyers worthwhile competitively?

[Indefragable]

I vouch for both a dakka Stormraven and the Xiphon.

 

I know I am a bit biased, but :cuss are Xiphons scary when they work. Not only are they 4x lascannon shots with no penalty to hit, but against FLY units (including both Daemon Primarchs at the moment) they go up to BS2+. I think they are fairly priced, which means they are expensive since you get what you pay for.

 

In terms of clearing screens, if you want chaff cleared I think the Stormtalon (heavy bolter + assault cannon) is a decent choice. Dakka SR (heavy bolter + assault cannon + Hurricane Bolters) will do the trick as well if you want to pay for it.

[tychobi]

I think the forum has said it quite well over all. In a nutshell the answer to the original question is "not really". None of the scary space marine lists at top tables do more than splash in flyers and then its a fire raptor. If you really want top table viability right now grab a guard cp battery and a castellan and fill in the rest with blood angels. You wont be popular but you will win games!

[lash144]

I think the forum has said it quite well over all. In a nutshell the answer to the original question is "not really". None of the scary space marine lists at top tables do more than splash in flyers and then its a fire raptor. If you really want top table viability right now grab a guard cp battery and a castellan and fill in the rest with blood angels. You wont be popular but you will win games!

Sad but true. But over here in Germany we have a tournament series which places restrictions on list building, e.g. max 2 detachments, so this kind of cheese is not possible in that form.

My local meta is therefore more dominated by (Dark) Eldar and Tau. Oh lord do I hate the fish people, they feel like my hardest match up.

 

But as pointed out early I'm looking for a way to run mono BA, as competitively as possible.

[FormelyKnownAsSmashyPants]

On paper, not entirely sure on real game performance as I haven’t played one, the talon looks quite solid rules wise. Same base load out as a Dakar Baal, but with the option of taking lascannons for anti tank, hurricane launcher for a mix and the sky spear against units that fly. Model looks bad ass, kinda got a dragon fly/helicopter gunship vibe about it, and it looks mean in BA’s red.

[Riot Earp]

As another german player i can not confirm that we are usually rude in our forums. And if there are also mods which have to intervene. I find that strange as an excuse.

 

 

(and it was aggressive - be nicer! ) 

 

Heh, Der SFPanzer already has his mitigating circumstances in his signature...

 

 

 

[Panzer]

 

As another german player i can not confirm that we are usually rude in our forums. And if there are also mods which have to intervene. I find that strange as an excuse.

 

 

(and it was aggressive - be nicer! ) 

 

Heh, Der SFPanzer already has his mitigating circumstances in his signature...

 

 

 

I never said that germans are usually rude. That's pretty much the exact opposite of what my signature means. It's very offtopic anyway lol

[lash144]

Could we please stop that OT?

Thanks :)

 

Back to the topic: So what are you guys relying on to clear those screens?

[Riot Earp]

Sure. If you want a flyer I like to run the fireraptor with the quad Bolters to clear screens. He would also profit from a smash captains aura if you jump him into the front. But after the price hike I rely on other stuff like quad mortars and Bolter inceptors (turn two).

[Diagramdude]

All Marine Flyers certainly deserve a second look now that they can get to a 2+ on turn 1 if you go second.

[micahwc]

Off topic so I apologize, but if you need help clearing screens and want an alternative to the Baal Predator, I'd suggest allying in some Russ Punishers with triple heavy bolters and storm bolter. 51 shots each per turn at BS 3 if they are a commander variant. A supreme command detachment of 3 of them will clear screens real well. They are also great fire magnets. The main gun isn't that strong but the sheer number of dice rolls makes people nervous.

 

I played my guard army against a Blood Angels player once and my Punishers thought his Baal Predators were cute.

[Panzer]

If we start like that then there's little reason to play Marines at all. Just play AM. Thanks but I refuse.

[Bonzi]

Sceen clearing ideally needs to be done turn 1 to open the path for closer drops by turn 2 Deep Strike units like Captain Smash. Inceptors are flat out amazing but if your looking to clear screens with them I think their utility is limited unless they start on the table...and if they start on the table they're gonna die fast. Catch-22 situation. Agressors suffer the same problem.

 

I would not look down upon a Dev squad packing a mix of heavy bolters and missile launchers to clear chaff. BolterBacks or AssBacks are also solid options. The ground attack fighter with Assaltcannons and heavy bolters would also be a great option and even a touch more survivable than a ground tank. I think, sadly, a Baal Pred is our worst option to do anything except look cool and be Blood Angel-ly

[Vykes]

Off topic so I apologize, but if you need help clearing screens and want an alternative to the Baal Predator, I'd suggest allying in some Russ Punishers with triple heavy bolters and storm bolter. 51 shots each per turn at BS 3 if they are a commander variant. A supreme command detachment of 3 of them will clear screens real well. They are also great fire magnets. The main gun isn't that strong but the sheer number of dice rolls makes people nervous.

 

I played my guard army against a Blood Angels player once and my Punishers thought his Baal Predators were cute.

May be so, but the Sicaran Punisher smirks at the wild, short range, orkish spray and pray of the crude Imperial Guard cubist analogues.  A scant few points more, but longer range, hits more accurately and harder.  They're also fast, very fast... not as quick on the draw as a standard sicaran given it won't be advancing like they will, but quick nonetheless.  And a built in Captain aura with a 3+ gun ain't bad for a 'Baal Pattern Sicaran'.   

 

On topic: I do still think that the codex flyers are alright, while the Fire Raptor will clear screens it's just really a lot of points.  Though, admittedly, it has a better chance to knock out the odd tank or two with its rockets/lascannons compared to a Storm Talon. It better, for that price. 

[Panzer]

All Marine Flyers certainly deserve a second look now that they can get to a 2+ on turn 1 if you go second.

 

I think this hasn't been discussed enough yet so far. I completely agree with you there.

I've been using the Dal'yth Sept (free Cover for any unit that doesn't move) for my T'au army quite a bit lately to soften enemy alpha strikes and I've been pleasently surprised at how durable my army became the first turn. Devilfishes/Hammerheads at T7 Sv2+ usually survived turn 1 and things like Broadsides at Sv1+ basically had a free 4++ invul save against things like Lascannons so I never really had to worry about them either.

So I have high hopes for any transport at Sv2+ for the first turn but especially Stormravens. Those guys will be able to soak up quite a lot of your opponents anti-tank for just 2CP and then turn 2 you'll be in position for whatever you want to do. With the nerf to reserves only for turn 2+ this sounds like a more than just viable alternative to using reserves at all.

Same goes for the smaller flyer in the Codex who'll be a rather hard to shift weapon platform the first turn if you go second (and if you don't go second you should get rid of as much anti-tank as possible anyway).

[lash144]

@Vykes:

Problem with the Sicarian is the missing -1 to hit, which is a massive defensive boost, and the lack of fly so it can be tagged in CQC.

 

 

@Panzer:

Yeah +2SV and -1 to hit is really hard to :cuss. 

Regarding our smaller flyers: Which do you like more? 

[Panzer]

 

Regarding our smaller flyers: Which do you like more? 

 

I'm honestly not that great a fan of either, but if I had to take one it'd be the Stormtalon Gunship.

It's a question between whether you expect lots of FLY targets or not and how tanky do you think your flyer needs to be.

The Gunship can decide to hover and not move so it can hit ground targets on a 2+ and FLY targets on a 4+ but in return it can get charged and the enemy doesn't suffer from the Hard to Hit penalty.

The Interceptor is forced to move so it would hit ground targets on a 4+ and FLY targets on a 3+ but since it can't hover it can't get charged by non-FLY units and the enemy always suffers from the Hard to Hit penalty. It also has a neat rule to re-roll save rolls of 1.

 

Overall I think I just value the hover mode option and the ability to hit ground targets on a 2+ over being slightly more tanky and being able to hit FLY targets better.

[Diagramdude]

The Stormhawk rerolling 1s for saves is pretty neat with the potential 2+ from Prepared Positions.

 

I haven't used a flyer in awhile, but, thinking about it, a flyer could also serve as an effective screen or charge blocker post FAQ2, because you cant FLY charge over things anymore. So you could park your big flyer base as an obstruction between buildings or in front an enemy and if they can't FLY they can't charge your plane and FLY or no FLY they can't charge over your plane.

 

Edit: when comparing the stormtalon and stormhawk it is worth noting the stormtalon is T6 and the hawk T7

[Panzer]

Edit: when comparing the stormtalon and stormhawk it is worth noting the stormtalon is T6 and the hawk T7

 

Something I totally missed until now. The re-rolling 1s for saves is great but the Stormtalon will get a lot more wounds from Autocannons and such in the first place which might negate that advantage again.

[lash144]

 

Edit: when comparing the stormtalon and stormhawk it is worth noting the stormtalon is T6 and the hawk T7

 

Something I totally missed until now. The re-rolling 1s for saves is great but the Stormtalon will get a lot more wounds from Autocannons and such in the first place which might negate that advantage again.

 

 

IIRC the Stormhawk has the rerolling 1´s (in addition to being T7)