Are Astartes without gender?

[slitth]

After having read some old articles about why Astartes cannot be female and why some want female space marines.

I started to wonder if it not a moot point as Astartes might be so removed from the human genome that human gender no longer apply.

 

So are Astartes male in the human sense?

Well they are produced from human males.

But is the process so extreme that one could view as a sex change from male to astartes?

After all a space marines reproduce organ is the Progenoid Glands. Something that is unnatural.

And we are never told of the status of the original male reproduce organ, it might be so irrelevant that is removed to make the Astartes less vulnerable.

 

We are also remind time and time again about the inhumanity of the Astartes, is often describe more as behold human instead of male.

 

And what of the mindset of the Astartes, they act more asexually that anything else.

They have no concept of attraction to a gender, or any attraction at all.

 

The best pronoun for an Astartes would most likely be "it", but that would likely get one killed.

 

In conclusion I would say that the gender of an Astartes would need a new classification to be scientifically correct.

But I would still call a Ultramarine a "he", because the would take effect of being called a "it" and "he" would be the best alternative I could think of that would not get me killed.

 

What do you think. Have the Astartes move beyond the human concept of gender?

[Panzer]

Astartes are without question male. However they have no sexual urges so it doesn't really matter which gender they have.

[slitth]

Astartes are without question male. However they have no sexual urges so it doesn't really matter which gender they have.

 

Buy what logic?

The amount of chemicals and hormones that are pump in to the human body to produce an Astartes, would probably exceed what you use when you change the sex of a human.

Perhaps it so much that they leave the male sex behind when they assent to Astartes status.

 

Edit: I am not saying that Astartes are not male. As the status of "male" is a question of definitions than of facts.

I am merely curious of what definitions you use to determine Astartes as male

[Panzer]

By what logic? That's not something you should ask when it comes to the 40k universe. There is nothing that says they lose or change gender and they are still addressed as males and so on. All that's said is that they don't have any sexual urges ... be that via chemical influences or via brainwashing doesn't really matter.

 

Also Slaanesh Marines are still capable of using their sexual organ and that's before any mutations. Them worshipping Slaanesh just re-awakes their sexual urges again.

[slitth]

By what logic? That's not something you should ask when it comes to the 40k universe. There is nothing that says they lose or change gender and they are still addressed as males and so on. All that's said is that they don't have any sexual urges ... be that via chemical influences or via brainwashing doesn't really matter.

 

Also Slaanesh Marines are still capable of using their sexual organ and that's before any mutations. Them worshipping Slaanesh just re-awakes their sexual urges again.

 

Sorry, I meant by what definition do you classify Astartes as male.

 

And I did not know that about Slaanesh Marines, in what book is that stated?

[Kastor Krieg]

hey have no sexual urges so it doesn't really matter which gender they have.

Demonstrably false. It matters for many of the readers, ergo it matters in the general sense.

[Ishagu]

They are 100% male and engineered into a crudely ascended version of a human, but nothing to do with transcending gender.

 

Their phisiolgy and hormone levels remove sexual drives also. In truth, they don't go through normal human maturity.

[Brother Casman]

I think I see what you're getting at, Slitth, and in a way, I agree. In my eyes, the conversion from Homo Sapiens to Homo Astartes takes them beyond "conventional human" (thus, transhuman). Indeed, we could evoke a medieval view and suggest that the Adeptus Astartes are Angels (of Death, mind you!). Either way, they may have started as male, but I don't think they stay male, or at least, not in any sense that we'd recognize.

 

Thus the tragedy: a selected few give up their humanity in order to defend humanity. No wonder the Imperium is so cautious around them.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Here is the thing - Chaos Space Marines could easily have females due to the warp. GW can at any time change the background to retcon for the introduction of FeMarines.

[Otto von Bludd]

Male. That's why they are referred to as "he".

[Beams]

Astartes are men, simply because they refer to themselves as such. Brother <name> and what not.

[Gederas]

They're male, as they've only ever used male pronouns, and are also made from male humans.

 

They 'reproduce' with Progenoid Glands, but that's not actually reproduction: It's genetic enhancement.

 

Also, everyone: Slitth is using gender in the current sense of the term, as in one's mental view of their gender identity, not their biological sex. Space Marines are SEXUALLY Male, but Slitth is pondering their gender.

 

By what logic? That's not something you should ask when it comes to the 40k universe. There is nothing that says they lose or change gender and they are still addressed as males and so on. All that's said is that they don't have any sexual urges ... be that via chemical influences or via brainwashing doesn't really matter.

 

Also Slaanesh Marines are still capable of using their sexual organ and that's before any mutations. Them worshipping Slaanesh just re-awakes their sexual urges again.

Sorry, I meant by what definition do you classify Astartes as male.

 

And I did not know that about Slaanesh Marines, in what book is that stated?

 

It's in one of the Horus Heresy novels. I think it MAY be Fulgrim, but it's DEFINITELY in one of the novels centered on the Emperor's Children. It's also been stated/implied that when the Emperor's Children got to Terra they did very inappropriate things to the populace aside from killing them and/or rendering them down into drugs.

 

As a side note: In one of the Horus Heresy novels, a female remembrancer sees one of the Astartes (Garro I think?) leaving a shower, and her inner monologue describes him as "equine". And she's not talking about his face either, because in that monologue she's looking over his musculature.

 

It's also mentioned that Salamanders have families on Nocturne (whether that means they get busy with human women, or merely live amongst the people isn't ever stated) and I THINK it's been implied that Space Wolves have relations?

 

But as to their sexual organs: It's been stated in the novels and canon that they're functional, but 99% of Space Marines have no sex drive, and those that do are abnormal for Astartes, or Renegades/Chaos Marines.
 

Here is the thing - Chaos Space Marines could easily have females due to the warp. GW can at any time change the background to retcon for the introduction of FeMarines.

 

Let's be honest here, if GW were to do that, it'd ONLY be Slaaneshi marines. Because that's one of Slaanesh's things.

[DuskRaider]

From what I've heard there's a novel (one of the Fabius Bile ones?) that mentions experimental geneseed or modifications done to a female that makes her Astartes-like. Something like that. But no, Astartes are all male. Something with geneseed being incompatible with female chromosomes or some sort. They're male after ascending to Space Marine. I don't think they really have time to question their pronouns or whatever it is you're reaching for here.

[karden00]

They're male, as they've only ever used male pronouns, and are also made from male humans.

 

They 'reproduce' with Progenoid Glands, but that's not actually reproduction: It's genetic enhancement.

 

Also, everyone: Slitth is using gender in the current sense of the term, as in one's mental view of their gender identity, not their biological sex. Space Marines are SEXUALLY Male, but Slitth is pondering their gender.

 

 

 

By what logic? That's not something you should ask when it comes to the 40k universe. There is nothing that says they lose or change gender and they are still addressed as males and so on. All that's said is that they don't have any sexual urges ... be that via chemical influences or via brainwashing doesn't really matter.

 

Also Slaanesh Marines are still capable of using their sexual organ and that's before any mutations. Them worshipping Slaanesh just re-awakes their sexual urges again.

Sorry, I meant by what definition do you classify Astartes as male.

 

And I did not know that about Slaanesh Marines, in what book is that stated?

It's in one of the Horus Heresy novels. I think it MAY be Fulgrim, but it's DEFINITELY in one of the novels centered on the Emperor's Children. It's also been stated/implied that when the Emperor's Children got to Terra they did very inappropriate things to the populace aside from killing them and/or rendering them down into drugs.

 

As a side note: In one of the Horus Heresy novels, a female remembrancer sees one of the Astartes (Garro I think?) leaving a shower, and her inner monologue describes him as "equine". And she's not talking about his face either, because in that monologue she's looking over his musculature.

 

It's also mentioned that Salamanders have families on Nocturne (whether that means they get busy with human women, or merely live amongst the people isn't ever stated) and I THINK it's been implied that Space Wolves have relations?

 

But as to their sexual organs: It's been stated in the novels and canon that they're functional, but 99% of Space Marines have no sex drive, and those that do are abnormal for Astartes, or Renegades/Chaos Marines.

Here is the thing - Chaos Space Marines could easily have females due to the warp. GW can at any time change the background to retcon for the introduction of FeMarines.

Let's be honest here, if GW were to do that, it'd ONLY be Slaaneshi marines. Because that's one of Slaanesh's things.

Where has it been stated that “they’re functional?”

[StraightSilver]

Astartes are post-human/trans-human so our notions of sex (male and female) don't really apply to them, however gender does.

Sex = male/female and is determined biologically
Gender = man/woman and is ascribed socially.

Astartes are neither male/female as they reproduce asexually having both sperm and ova (geneseed / progenoid gland).

They certainly identify as men from a gender perspective, but their biological sex is a bit more complicated after the process to transform them into Astartes is complete.

There is nothing that says however that their male sexual organs do not function, and their reduction in sexual urges is part of their hypno-conditioning they go through as aspirants.

 

To my knowledge there is nothing that says that this conditioning can't be undone otherwise no marine would ever succumb to Chaos for the same reason. However to my knowledge although their sexual organs still function I believe Astartes are actually sterile and can only "reproduce" via their geneseed?

However there is a completely different reason why Astartes are portrayed as men in 40K and that's because 40K is based, for the most part,on the Bible.

Without going into a huge religious conversation the Adeptus Astartes are called the Emperor's Angels of Death for a reason.

They are based on Old Testament Angels - all of whom were men, but were also neither male nor female.

Primarchs = Archangels
Astartes = Angels

The word "Angelos" is one of the few ancient Greek words that does not have a feminine form. Angels were always portrayed in the Bible as men and there are no named angels in the bible that were women. However, there are 2 instances where there is a suggestion that there might have been 2 feminine angels, but they are never named...

I know the 2 missing legions were actually based on the 2 missing Roman Legions however it's interesting that there were also 2 angels in the Bible that are not really talked about in much the same way.

So from a fluff point of view Astartes are always men because that's how Angels were portrayed in the Bible and they are certainly recruited only from male aspirants.

What becomes of them after the process is a bit less clear cut but I believe they are still male for all intents and purposes.

 

[Captain Idaho]

Whilst it is appreciated that the people posting in this thread have kept it civil and courteous at all times (without condescension intended - well done all) it is unfortunately a topic that spills into the political arena whether we want it to or not. The debate between definitions of male and female are widespread and messy and since this venerable forum is very inclusive, consensus is generally hard to reach on subject matter such as this. Our members come from all walks of life around the globe so invariably we'll get a position that gender and sex are defined by the chromosomes of the individual right to the distinction of gender and sex with one being a choice and every argument inbetween.

What's more, female Marines is generally a topic done to death which this is a topic a short hop away from.

Games Workshop themselves call Marines men and male with little or no elaboration and neither will we.

As such, unless an Admin sees fit to allow it, I'm going to close this thread down.

I do, however, see much merit it discussion of the analogue between angels in theology and Astartes in 40K. If someone wants to continue such a discussion elsewhere that should be fine, provided the subject doesn't go into religious discourse.