Think Tank: Specific SW Unit Builds, Missions, and Purposes

[Karack Blackstone]

Hello all, it's time for the nitty gritty.

 

This thread is similar to my two others, however, for this one, I only want specifics. What do I mean by that? Simply put, show me and the rest of the sub-forum what you take when you choose a Grey Hunter Pack, Blood Claw Pack, et. al., etc.

 

---

 

My default GH Pack:

- 6 GH's, BG, BP, CSw

- 2 GH's with PG, BP, CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, PF

- 1 WGPL, SS, CSw

+ Rhino, SB

 

My default BC Pack:

- 12 BC's, BP, CSw

- 1 BCPL, BP, CSw

- 1 WGPL, BP, PF

+ 1 WP, stock

+ 1 WGBL, stock

+ 1 LRC or Stormwolf, no MM on the LRC normally, the Stormwolf normally gets Twin LC and Twin HB

 

Intercessors, at least in theory:

- 9 IC's, BR, BP

- 1 ICL, BR, BP, CSw

+ 1 Repulsor, I forget the current weapon loadout, but it may be too all-rounder currently.

 

Wulfen, theory mode:

- 5 W, TH/SS

- 2 W, FC's

- 1 WpL, FC's

+ 1 LRC or Stormwolf, normally

 

Long Fangs:

- 5 ML LF's

- 1 LFPL, stock

+ 1 Las/Plas Razorback (Plazorback)

 

---

 

Why so many transport heavy units? Because I am used to playing against T'au being led by a truly competent and honestly lucky player that is a great long term friend. The one time I did try to footslog I was tabled by Turn 3. So, I'm used to having rides.

 

What with the apparent new meta changes favoring hordes actually going for numbers, I think with the possibility of a Guard Brigade going with maximum Infantry models per FOC option is going to need some planning to handle correctly.

 

Please type up and post your own "default" or stock pack loadouts, so that as a group, there's a way to figure out what one needs and when to change or otherwise how to best balance out what options one as a player intends to go for, and how to best get there.

 

Obviously this is not the full range of what I take, it is a list for starting a conversation.

 

What do you take for your stock and base packs?

Why? What mission do they have?

What kit do you give the pack?

Etc.

 

Constructive criticism and thoughtful replies and feedback please.

Thanks,

Karack.

 

Go.

[Ratherdashing]

I have 45 wolves modeled as troops and have pretty standard loadouts for them (mostly because I haven't had a compelling reason to change the modeled wargear).

 

 

GH pack 1: 10 GH. 2x PG, 1 PP. WGPL with dual PPs. I used to use a WP with Saga of the Hunter to outflank for side armor shots and Preferred Enemy preventing overheats. Now I am more likely to slog up the board with a WL or Logan. But I am considering breaking it into two squads and use them just to hold backfield objectives. This has been my top performing squad in past editions and this one.

 

GH pack 2: 10 GH. 2x MG. Power axe, Wolf Standard. I used to drop pod this unit by itself to wipe a vehicle and then (in theory) break up formations. Rarely made it to melee. In this edition I've been running it up the board with a WGPL (either a PA with SB and PS, or TDA with combi plasma and Wolf claw). Usually near a WL/WGBL combo if possible, and if slogging I try to keep it and the PG hunters near the buffbots. I don't have rhinos so I am still considering drop podding them especially now that I can use a WGPL and still get two meltas. Might pod in the PG squad too in that case.

 

BCpack: 15 BC. Two flamers. Slog up the board with a TDA guard and/or Wolf Priest. Now that I'm getting Wulfen put together the Priest is ditching the Claws for their hairier brothers. Footslogging BCs will be escorted by WL/WGBL combo or if I'm really extravagant, Logan and Arjac. Sometimes give them a RP for cover. My other option with them is to put them and their WGPL in a LRC. I'd do this with the drop pod combo mentioned earlier, not if there were other footsloggers. Whether or not I have an LRC also determines whether I cram in a lasPred and IP-escorted VenDred.

 

In 6th and 8th alike my workhorses are Long Fangs. One squad has 4 HB and one ML, other squad 4 LC and ML (hey, it's what you get in the devastator box). I give the LC pack a WGPL with TDA, CML, and SS. I usually give them a cheap WGBL in between the squads but with our new stratagem it becomes less important.

 

I have five sniper scouts that I stubbornly squeeze in but they very rarely accomplish anything. Good vs. Guard though, especially back in the Commissar days.

 

In my neighborhood 60 Marines is a veritable horde, so I try to overwhelm them with big squads. My troops still die quickly but when I win, it's because one or two from a squad make it and hold an objective. But whether I win is almost always correlated to good or bad hit rolls on LF and whether or not my opponent prioritizes killing them. And with this many bodies, WL and WGBl do a lot of work too, though I suspect I overvalue them and they cause me to clump up too much.

[Kallas]

My default GH Pack:

- 4 GH's, BG, BP, CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, CSw

 

My other GH Packs:

- 4 GH's, BG, CP, CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, CSw

 

[Karack Blackstone]

 

My default GH Pack:

- 4 GH's, BG, BP, CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, CSw

 

My other GH Packs:

- 4 GH's, BG, CP, CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, CSw

 

 

 

So what might you change up if you need to have more than five, or if interested, a WGPL?

[Kallas]

So what might you change up if you need to have more than five, or if interested, a WGPL?

 

Probably just a cheap WGPL, to be honest. I don't actually rate heavily kitted out squads of basic Marines, so I'd probably go pretty minimalist with a Storm Bolter and Chainsword, or maybe a Storm Bolter and Power Fist, if I wanted a bit more punch; or a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield if they're intended to stay alive a little bit longer.

 

So probably something like:

- 4 GHs: BG, BP, CSw

- 1 GHPL: BG, BP, CSw/PF

- 1 WGPL: SB, CSw/PF

 

It would have a little bit of a bite in melee, so they'd be somewhat more flexible than just a bog standard unit, although even they cost 108pts to the 5-man's 65 (so about 66% more expensive!)

[Karack Blackstone]

 

So what might you change up if you need to have more than five, or if interested, a WGPL?

 

Probably just a cheap WGPL, to be honest. I don't actually rate heavily kitted out squads of basic Marines, so I'd probably go pretty minimalist with a Storm Bolter and Chainsword, or maybe a Storm Bolter and Power Fist, if I wanted a bit more punch; or a Storm Bolter and Storm Shield if they're intended to stay alive a little bit longer.

 

So probably something like:

- 4 GHs: BG, BP, CSw

- 1 GHPL: BG, BP, CSw/PF

- 1 WGPL: SB, CSw/PF

 

It would have a little bit of a bite in melee, so they'd be somewhat more flexible than just a bog standard unit, although even they cost 108pts to the 5-man's 65 (so about 66% more expensive!)

 

 

Now this is something I can understand and see why people are currently favoring heavy MSU: 65 points for a single 5 strong pack is great, and really is a cheap and effective way to run a pack of cookie-cutter basic SM infantry as a standard template. Free CSw option is also way too good to pass up!

 

A few questions:

- If you needed more bodies, would 130 points for a 10 man GH pack make more sense?

- If so or not, how and why?

- How if at all do you use ranged special weapons?

 

I know you prefer your GH's cheap, simple to run, and simple to use on the table, if I read your unit right.

I'm perhaps too inclined to go with as close to 10 man GH packs as I can, if I take one, let alone more. Yes, it does

[FabulousRex]

I think it varies depending on the squad size and role. MSU lone wolf factory is probably just WGPLs on min Blood claw squads. Fully loaded Grey Hunters can work at 11 strong, to soak casualties. I go big on squads for board control.

 

16 Blood Claws with 2 powerfists

 

11 Grey Hunters with triple plasma, 2 power axes

 

10 Intercessors

 

Big squads are the footslogging way to go.

[Kallas]

 

Now this is something I can understand and see why people are currently favoring heavy MSU: 65 points for a single 5 strong pack is great, and really is a cheap and effective way to run a pack of cookie-cutter basic SM infantry as a standard template. Free CSw option is also way too good to pass up!

 

A few questions:

1.  If you needed more bodies, would 130 points for a 10 man GH pack make more sense?
2.  If so or not, how and why?
3.  How if at all do you use ranged special weapons?

I know you prefer your GH's cheap, simple to run, and simple to use on the table, if I read your unit right.

I'm perhaps too inclined to go with as close to 10 man GH packs as I can, if I take one, let alone more. Yes, it does

1/2: Honestly, not really. If going with completely basic squads we essentially agree that MSU generally has more advantages in versatility and resilience than one 10-man. Unlike regular SM, SW cannot Combat Squad, so there's a straight commitment to the bigger squad, and while a big squad can do some nice things, it's still actually worse off in offensive output (if only very slightly) than two MSU (due to the GHPL's +1A). Two MSU also contribute more towards Battalions/Brigades, which I feel is massively more helpful; as well as being essentially immune to Morale vs having the potential to lose some models after 4-5 casualties for the 10-man (even more so for SW, as our GH/BCPLs are only Ld7, as opposed to SM Tactical Sergeants being Ld8 base).

 

3: My thinking is that ranged special weapons (RSW) are too expensive (all except the Flamer are worth as much as/more than a whole body) for basic units but don't actually contribute all that much to the units' firepower unless they are adding a whole different dimension (ie, unless they offer a new available target, such as a Meltagun being much more capable of hurting a vehicle). That said, the RSWs are just not very efficient, in my opinion, when spread out across multiple squads or they ramp up the cost of squads significantly.

 

Let's compare 2x5 GH (130pts) to 1x11 with Plas/Plas/Combi (186). That's, instantly, off the bat 43% more expensive for the inclusion of the RSWs and WGPL. It has 1 more body, is vulnerable to Morale and essentially requires a transport (again, in my opinion) or else it's a prime target (that unit is approximately 1/11th of a 2,000pt army alone) for relatively easy removal. The RSWs don't add to the body count and rack up the cost; if that GH squad adds in a Frost Axe/Power Fist/Thunder Hammer on the WGPL, then they're close to 10% of your 2,000pts.

 

Personally, I'd much rather invest in something like a small pack of Wolf Guard, kitted with a few Combi-Weapons and made for a specific task (Plasma and Power/Frost Swords for anti-MEQ work; Power Fists/Melta for anti-tank, etc), or Long Fangs for the same (two Heavy Bolters/two Lascannons for mixed duty, preferably as you can double up to make any one threat harder to remove entirely).

 

And this is where I feel the transports are needed, as they massively compound the resilience of the packs. It's both delivering them faster as well as wasting the opponent's anti-infantry firepower until the transport disgorges them/is destroyed (which so far hasn't been easy for my opponents, at least!).

 

NB: My opinions on this are mostly coming from my previous attempts to make special weapons work, across Vanilla SM, BA and now SW. My early tests with SW involved three 10-man GH packs with triple Plasma + Frost Sword/Axe. They consistently got destroyed after (and sometimes before) achieving very little with the Plasma, and the melee special weapons were basically pointless too. Since switching to my current 6x5 MSU build, the GH packs have been fine - they don't do a lot, but what they do is generally absorb more firepower than they're worth (and they can often stick to cover better than 10-man) while shielding my characters, while also being disposable enough to just idle on objectives to force my opponent to engage.

 

Big squads are the footslogging way to go.

I'd disagree with this sentiment, to be honest. Big squads of Intercessors could work, but I don't see much reason to take them over two MSU (hell, you straight up can't use more than one Auxiliary Grenade Launcher in a big squad!). As I mention above, the big unit of Grey Hunters becomes a big target for decent fire to rip away those MEQ bodies with relative ease.

 

Blood Claws in a full on horde? I feel like that has some good potential that I haven't seen fully explored yet (and I don't have the models for it to do so just yet), and could be viable. When I say horde, I mean a large proportion of points invested in big 15/16-man squads with a pair of hidden Power Fists running up field with a Wolf Lord nearby to use Howl of the Great Company to negate their low Ld/high body count.

 

Footslogging might work ok, what with Storm Caller/Cloaked by the Storm being available, but I believe it would be necessary to go all in: waste your opponent's anti-tank weaponry on your infantry, and give them next to no good hard targets to shoot. Bjorn/Murderfang can work, due to being Characters, as can the variety of powerful, hard hitting characters we can brings (JP/Thunderwolf Wolf Lords/WGBLs).

 

 

[As an aside, I'm not knocking anyone's choice to go 10+ with lots of gear; it is simply my personal findings that it doesn't work particularly well for, and that I find it an inefficient use of points. I would actually really like to hear how people are getting good use out of those kinds of squads, preferably with some notes about what kind of things they do to keep them alive/what things they do to get them to their preferred targets.]

[TiguriusX]

In prior editions GH were part of the combat units we relied on.  Double plasma/melta etc.  Power weapon/fist and get in there to mix it up!

 

However, in 8th edition I view our GH as the best chaff troops in the game...but that is it. 

I only assign GH 2 jobs:  

1-Sit on an objective and be hard to move (take up space to prevent deep strike etc and help get CP via battalion etc.).

2-Help other units kill enemy chaff and then sit on the captured objective.

 

Job 2 doesn't require investing in weapons. The bolters/chainswords hopefully get you through the chaff you are hunting.

 

I think if you want to invest slightly for your MSU the best upgrade is a WGPL with a storm shield (can plop a storm bolter as well not a big deal).

It brings your MSU from 5 to 6.

It isn't that much of an investment but it completely changes the potential durability for the unit.

 

A storm shield in a chaff unit makes people reconsider what they are throwing at it.

 

And best of all...if you roll hot with that SS the game can get hilarious.  

[Karack Blackstone]

    Kallas, on 18 Oct 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

        Karack Blackstone, on 17 Oct 2018 - 7:34 PM, said:

        Now this is something I can understand and see why people are currently favoring heavy MSU: 65 points for a single 5 strong pack is great, and really is a cheap and effective way to run a pack of cookie-cutter basic SM infantry as a standard template. Free CSw option is also way too good to pass up!

        A few questions:

             If you needed more bodies, would 130 points for a 10 man GH pack make more sense?
             If so or not, how and why?
             How if at all do you use ranged special weapons?

        I know you prefer your GH's cheap, simple to run, and simple to use on the table, if I read your unit right.

        I'm perhaps too inclined to go with as close to 10 man GH packs as I can, if I take one, let alone more. Yes, it does

    1/2: Honestly, not really. If going with completely basic squads we essentially agree that MSU generally has more advantages in versatility and resilience than one 10-man. Unlike regular SM, SW cannot Combat Squad, so there's a straight commitment to the bigger squad, and while a big squad can do some nice things, it's still actually worse off in offensive output (if only very slightly) than two MSU (due to the GHPL's +1A). Two MSU also contribute more towards Battalions/Brigades, which I feel is massively more helpful; as well as being essentially immune to Morale vs having the potential to lose some models after 4-5 casualties for the 10-man (even more so for SW, as our GH/BCPLs are only Ld7, as opposed to SM Tactical Sergeants being Ld8 base).

    3: My thinking is that ranged special weapons (RSW) are too expensive (all except the Flamer are worth as much as/more than a whole body) for basic units but don't actually contribute all that much to the units' firepower unless they are adding a whole different dimension (ie, unless they offer a new available target, such as a Meltagun being much more capable of hurting a vehicle). That said, the RSWs are just not very efficient, in my opinion, when spread out across multiple squads or they ramp up the cost of squads significantly.

    Let's compare 2x5 GH (130pts) to 1x11 with Plas/Plas/Combi (186). That's, instantly, off the bat 43% more expensive for the inclusion of the RSWs and WGPL. It has 1 more body, is vulnerable to Morale and essentially requires a transport (again, in my opinion) or else it's a prime target (that unit is approximately 1/11th of a 2,000pt army alone) for relatively easy removal. The RSWs don't add to the body count and rack up the cost; if that GH squad adds in a Frost Axe/Power Fist/Thunder Hammer on the WGPL, then they're close to 10% of your 2,000pts.

    Personally, I'd much rather invest in something like a small pack of Wolf Guard, kitted with a few Combi-Weapons and made for a specific task (Plasma and Power/Frost Swords for anti-MEQ work; Power Fists/Melta for anti-tank, etc), or Long Fangs for the same (two Heavy Bolters/two Lascannons for mixed duty, preferably as you can double up to make any one threat harder to remove entirely).

    And this is where I feel the transports are needed, as they massively compound the resilience of the packs. It's both delivering them faster as well as wasting the opponent's anti-infantry firepower until the transport disgorges them/is destroyed (which so far hasn't been easy for my opponents, at least!).

    NB: My opinions on this are mostly coming from my previous attempts to make special weapons work, across Vanilla SM, BA and now SW. My early tests with SW involved three 10-man GH packs with triple Plasma + Frost Sword/Axe. They consistently got destroyed after (and sometimes before) achieving very little with the Plasma, and the melee special weapons were basically pointless too. Since switching to my current 6x5 MSU build, the GH packs have been fine - they don't do a lot, but what they do is generally absorb more firepower than they're worth (and they can often stick to cover better than 10-man) while shielding my characters, while also being disposable enough to just idle on objectives to force my opponent to engage.

        FabulousRex, on 17 Oct 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

        Big squads are the footslogging way to go.

    I'd disagree with this sentiment, to be honest. Big squads of Intercessors could work, but I don't see much reason to take them over two MSU (hell, you straight up can't use more than one Auxiliary Grenade Launcher in a big squad!). As I mention above, the big unit of Grey Hunters becomes a big target for decent fire to rip away those MEQ bodies with relative ease.

    Blood Claws in a full on horde? I feel like that has some good potential that I haven't seen fully explored yet (and I don't have the models for it to do so just yet), and could be viable. When I say horde, I mean a large proportion of points invested in big 15/16-man squads with a pair of hidden Power Fists running up field with a Wolf Lord nearby to use Howl of the Great Company to negate their low Ld/high body count.

    Footslogging might work ok, what with Storm Caller/Cloaked by the Storm being available, but I believe it would be necessary to go all in: waste your opponent's anti-tank weaponry on your infantry, and give them next to no good hard targets to shoot. Bjorn/Murderfang can work, due to being Characters, as can the variety of powerful, hard hitting characters we can brings (JP/Thunderwolf Wolf Lords/WGBLs).

 

    [As an aside, I'm not knocking anyone's choice to go 10+ with lots of gear; it is simply my personal findings that it doesn't work particularly well for, and that I find it an inefficient use of points. I would actually really like to hear how people are getting good use out of those kinds of squads, preferably with some notes about what kind of things they do to keep them alive/what things they do to get them to their preferred targets.]

    TiguriusX, on 18 Oct 2018 - 05:10 AM, said:

    In prior editions GH were part of the combat units we relied on.  Double plasma/melta etc.  Power weapon/fist and get in there to mix it up!

    However, in 8th edition I view our GH as the best chaff troops in the game...but that is it.

    I only assign GH 2 jobs: 

    1-Sit on an objective and be hard to move (take up space to prevent deep strike etc and help get CP via battalion etc.).

    2-Help other units kill enemy chaff and then sit on the captured objective.

    Job 2 doesn't require investing in weapons. The bolters/chainswords hopefully get you through the chaff you are hunting.

    I think if you want to invest slightly for your MSU the best upgrade is a WGPL with a storm shield (can plop a storm bolter as well not a big deal).

    It brings your MSU from 5 to 6.

    It isn't that much of an investment but it completely changes the potential durability for the unit.

    A storm shield in a chaff unit makes people reconsider what they are throwing at it.

    And best of all...if you roll hot with that SS the game can get hilarious. 

 

I'm using spoiler tags to reduce the size of this reply's screen real estate.

 

Kallas, great points, and also, as TiguriusX points out in his type up after yours, there's always a change in the overall unit purpose as the editions change. In 5th to 7th, the relatively better survivability and durability of PA SW's, especially GH's, was a great deal more meaningful. In 8th however, a two MSU 5 or 6 man GH packs will be more points efficient, however, that's also going to give you only one real purpose for each pack in general. This is not by itself a bad thing; hell, it can be useful.

 

The problem is, most of the previous editions rewarded and in the case of GH's especially showed the real spine that C/SM's in general brought to the table. The all or nothing nature of the PA save was actually the real problem, but also the entire reason the survival rate of individual C/SM models is so... utter bad news in 8th Ed.

 

In 5th to 7th, a Plasmagun shot was AP2, which meant no save.

 

However, anything AP4 and above was still a solid 3+ save. AP3 and AP2 just meant no save.

In 8th on the other hand, the PA save STARTS at 3+, and AP -1 means a 4+ save, and on up the sequence.

 

Even tanks and what not really are softer now; a LRC with what, 16 Wounds, and a 2+ base save is nearly nothing when a Lascannon is AP -4. A 2+ suddenly morphing into a 6+ because the enemy's weapons says it must is not really fun, when so many weapons that have AP -3+ are often d6 Damage, and Melta stands out as a roll damage twice and take the higher result weapon. The problem is the cost of Melta. It isn't cheap.

 

My ten man GH packs, as I intend to run them are in a massive 30,000 point list. I have ten of them in mind, however, each is cookie cutter and the same. I don't tend to do well remembering major differences in wargear when I cannot see it myself, and as my models are normally pointing away from me, I might forget what the pack in question has for its kit.

 

The plan are the above mentioned GH packs, in a SB Rhino. Yes, ten man packs might not be great, however, I guess the problem is I am used to there being a reward for having more bodies per pack. The morale phase reroll for Loyal SM units is actually not good enough; I don't see how Astartes would run, when in every edition up until now the Astartes reform if there's any reason that they would otherwise break. This is both sad and rather funny: all Loyal SM Chapters are basically just slightly less vulnerable to cowardice when compared to the non-Astartes units. This still makes no sense; I'm hoping the CA 2018 addresses this discrepancy.

 

Overall, the reason for large packs for me is that they USED to be really strong on the table, resilient, and had a great deal of mission variability. As the new edition is favoring no frills bare bones 5 or 6 man packs of what was, and possibly is, sadly the best Loyalist side SM unit ever, do better than a full 10 or 11 man pack is not only sad, it's downright not fun.

 

Sure, my Marines can die in droves. Why must they run? That does not fit the fluff, and it doesn't make much sense to me.

Anyway, rant over.

 

SM's are not where they should be. Where they should be is debatable. However, no army exists in a vacuum. So, in 8th, when you need MSU, go MSU. If you want survivability, and the a pack that can stay for a bit, and absorb some casualties, or at least in theory can, 10 or 11 man GH packs can work.

 

GH packs at 10 men each:

- Rhino with 1 or 2 SB's, your choice

- 1 WGPL, I am going to try SS/CSw

- 1 GHPL, BG, BP, PF

- 6 GH's, BG, BP, CSw

- 2 GH's, PG, BP, CSw

 

Yes, this unit isn't cheap. However, what I think I most often struggle to remember is that for the Wolves, there are different levels of pack. A pack is a squad. I call a group of packs working together in a tight formation supporting each other a hunt pack. I think of a Great Company as being a group of hunt packs all working towards a single goal. A Great Company usually has two Greatpacks, if the 7th Ed. Curse of the Wulfen Edition Codex: Space Wolves name is to be kept.

 

Simply put:

- Pack

- Hunt Pack (two or more packs working in direct support to achieve a mission goal)

- Hunt Group (The Hunt Pack and the Long Fangs and/or other packs/Hunt Packs occasionally giving fire support)

- Greatpack (Demi or Terti Great Company, one half or one third)

- Great Company

- Chapter (I really don't expect to ever see a single Chapter on a game table, or even set of less than five or ten game tables. Here for the sake of consistency.)

 

It's more a game where, in WH40K, any single given pack's mission must be able to be both specialist, occasionally generalist, and also flexible enough to change at a moment's notice. I hope this all makes sense. A Hunt Pack might be as small as a Wulfen pack and one or two Blood Claw packs in close proximity to gain the Wulfen Curse buff. Any HQ's also nearby to aid both are still a part of the Hunt Pack, and clearly work as Alphas and lead by example.

 

As it is, I am perhaps too used to taking large ten man packs of GH's. I get that MSU packs might help. I just am so stuck in the mud that I want to try and figure out how to use the larger packs as a team. The rub is, no one pack can do everything, and objectives and mission goals must be met with the correct tactic for the pack in question. GH's are perhaps too all-rounder. The sad truth is that PG's are too good this edition. Thus why I plan to put in two per pack.

 

Edit: post dropped off the first time, glad I did a copy paste. Still, had to go in and put back in the returns to make the thing more legible.

[Karack Blackstone]

No other interest in this thread? I was thinking with the soon to arrive Codex: Orks there might be some benefit to discuss the various pack profiles, uses, wargear, purpose, etc...

[PeteySödes]

No other interest in this thread? I was thinking with the soon to arrive Codex: Orks there might be some benefit to discuss the various pack profiles, uses, wargear, purpose, etc...

 

Most of this stuff has been discussed to death or is rather obvious. Better to wait for specific questions or counter as things appear IMO.

[Karack Blackstone]

 

No other interest in this thread? I was thinking with the soon to arrive Codex: Orks there might be some benefit to discuss the various pack profiles, uses, wargear, purpose, etc...

 

Most of this stuff has been discussed to death or is rather obvious. Better to wait for specific questions or counter as things appear IMO.

 

 

I was more thinking as far as a dump thread for what everyone already knows so the new young'un's don't need to scour the entire forum and make threads asking about what to use x to counter said y.

 

Oh well.

[Skylarkr6]

As one of the aforementioned "young'uns", I gleaned much wisdom from this thread.

[Karack Blackstone]

As one of the aforementioned "young'uns", I gleaned much wisdom from this thread.

 

Sorry in advance, but, not sure if serious or joking, sadly.

 

This one post alone should be enough to see what we can all cram into this thread now, if I may please request it?

 

If need be, I can dive the previous two threads I've made and try to form a consensus post together to make sure there's at least a frame of reference for the newer and returning players to have some idea of what any given unit is for, and what said unit is intended to counter or at least threaten, if not both.

[Skylarkr6]

Completely serious. I started playing about 6 months ago and reading people's logic back and forth affords I sight into new strategies. I enjoy these type of threads

[Kallas]

I think when the Ork Codex drops, we'll need to have a group session about them 

[DanPesci]

Played 2 games last weekend and both of them my plasma long fang squad (that has been shelved up until recently) performed very well.

 

 

They can move, overcharge, then use keen senses to ignore the -1 for moving (plus any minuses for what they are shooting at). With the native reroll 1s to avoid overheats this becomes very potent if you roll well for their number of shots.

 

Means they can pop out from behind cover/move into decent firing lanes etc and still shoot well/not kill themselves. Excellent against Meq/teq/light vehicles.

 

 

P.s. I realise hellblasters probably fill this role better...but i dont use primaris.

 

 

Apart from them id been running MSU with TH/SS terminators. My opponent was wise to the lone wolf trick though so really not sure the TH/SS termies are worth it (although he did have to dedicate firepower to make sure they were dealt with). Will probably keep them in for now simply due to rule of cool.

[Karack Blackstone]

Okay, so I am hard pressed for time these days, however, I will need more time to get some idea of what and how to post up the general outline and synopsis of the units discussed already in the other two threads.

 

Seeing as the Ork 'dex drops tomorrow, I honestly wonder what people think about using tomorrow to at least touch base as far as what we as players will need to counter what in terms of the new opposition, thanks to said Codex.

 

I'm foreseeing one glaring issue, though: Speedfreeks is certainly going to require some Bikes or TWC or maybe even a mix of both to tie up all that highly mobile immense threat range variability the new Ork buggies and wheeled vehicles. These new ground rides are going to seriously impact the entire meta, let alone the scant few Fast Attack options the Wolves have access to may need to start pulling double duty.

 

So, as the Ork Codex is going to bring to the table a rather large swath of very mobile vehicles, what Fast Attack options do people like to consider, and for what role?

 

SkyClaws

SwiftClaws

Thunderwolf Cavalry

Scout Bikes

 

The new mobility paradigm the new Orks will bring I think will quite literally FORCE the Wolves to start using some transports again, just to be able to react to the new Ork range thus far.

 

Thoughts?

[Rune Priest Jbickb]

I've always loved fighting irks they want so badly to be in close combat and so do I. Honestly I think if we all add a couple decent back field characters to HI into the inevitable charge we will be pretty safe lol.

[TiguriusX]

I've always loved fighting irks they want so badly to be in close combat and so do I. Honestly I think if we all add a couple decent back field characters to HI into the inevitable charge we will be pretty safe lol.

 

The armor of russ is going to come in very handy with mobs of boys incoming

Leave a gap!

[Kallas]

 

I've always loved fighting irks they want so badly to be in close combat and so do I. Honestly I think if we all add a couple decent back field characters to HI into the inevitable charge we will be pretty safe lol.

 

The armor of russ is going to come in very handy with mobs of boys incoming

Leave a gap!

 

Those are some good points. Orks will generally want to close the distance, and they will quite quickly - we're a medium ranged army with a strong melee presence, so that actually works well for us, as we'll quickly get to apply our mid-range firepower and then get stuck in to melee.

 

Armour of Russ will definitely be important vs Ork Mobs. It will be useful offensively, to allow multiple units to dogpile one of theirs; and defensively to help mitigate their superior melee presence.

 

As for characters, I'm not sure about that, jbickb. A couple of characters won't kick out much in the way of horde killing, even with Frost Claws/buffs. I've actually been considering a big squad (or two smaller squads could do the same, I suppose) of Wolf Guard (either transported, or with Jump Packs) with Frost Claws, a nearby Wulfen Stone and/or a SOT Wolfkin Warlord. 8 of those buffed Wolf Guard will average 28 Ork Boyz killed in the first round (charge, or charged and striking first either with interrupt/AoR); with a single buffing Wolf Lord (ie, both SotW/Wulfen Stone), you're only looking at, assuming transported, 361pts for a unit that can happily murder a big blob of Orks in a single combat (once you factor in the Wolf Lord's cost: which is assuming JP/TH/SS).

 

TDAWG could do the same with a bit more resilience for only 449 (but would need a bigger transport, or risk teleporting).

 

I think if we're smart with our engagements, we should be able to pick apart a Green Tide, especially if we use Rhinos/other resilient models to try and slow them down (eg, a Rhino that charges a 30-strong Mob will have a decent chance to survive until their turn; and if you kill a few beforehand that chance goes up - which can give you an extra turn to jump on two units independently).

 

-----

 

For a different talking point: Traktor Kannons.

 

These Mek Guns are going to be nasty. Autohitting, 8/-2/d6(2d6 pick highest vs Fly), 48" for only 45pts is a nasty little gun. They can pack in a good number of these on top of a big Ork horde. They're not particularly tough (T5, 5+, 6W) but they operate as individual units after deployment, so it's very spread out which may become a problem.

 

A big factor me, in particular, is their autohitting will get around Cloaked by the Storm/Smoke Launchers, which weakens my current list if I'm facing 3-6 of them (on average it takes 7 to kill a Rhino; 9 if it is benefiting from Storm Caller - which is ok from a Mathhammer point of view, but d6 weapons could easily kill a Rhino in two shots!) as they'd be happily cracking open boxes full of delicious Space Marines for the rest of the Boyz to jump up and down on.

 

I think it'll remain to be seen with these as to how powerful they actually are on the table, but my gut feeling is that these will be ever-present in (competitive) Ork lists in the future.

[Karack Blackstone]

Hm.

 

After some thought and the light read through of the Ork Codex, I think the single biggest threats are the massive variance in the Fast Attack range, the Speed Freeks stuff, especially the Scrapjet due to heavy charge, and above all, for the love of all that is, the Ork Boyz Troop Choice cannot be understated as a fully dangerous problem now.

 

So, I guess the question for the thread is how do we as players change up our current units to tactically adjust to the new Ork threat, as well as, what do you plan to alter if anything in terms of your all-comers list as a base starting point? I am thinking that Intercessors as a backfield holding unit is fine; I think a new area where they will shine is as a mobile light fire support element, as their -1 AP Bolt Rifles should remove most Boyz Armor Saves quite reliably, due to their wonderful weapons.

 

I am thinking the Intercessor Pack Leader will need a Chainsword to present a solid threat due to weight of dice attacks, overall. Then again, throwing dice hitting on 2's is one way, while another is going with a Power Sword, Power Axe, or if willing, a Power Fist.

 

Hellblasters and Plasma Cannon Long Fangs seem like they're going to be a little too good in a way? Maybe use them to hunt the Nobs and Meganobz to reduce the huge new threat profile the various 'Nobz bring at this point in time.

 

As far as our Fast Attack choices, and some Elites, I really think the Wulfen, TWC, and Ven Dreads with Axe and Shield will shine in time. Wulfen Dreadnoughts with Shield and Claw might also be a really cheap and efficient threat balancer due to the way that our forces tend to synergize most of the time.

 

Still, in regard to Orks, thoughts?

[Karhedron]

Bolter Inceptors have been solid for me as horde control. Even an MSU squad will kill on average 8 boyz per turn which is a decent return for a 135-point squad. Combine this with decent mobility, enhanced toughness and the benefits that come with the FLY keyword and you have a solid workhorse unit.

 

For slightly fewer points, you can 3 boltstorm Aggressors. These will also kill roughly 8 boyz per turn on Average if they move. Whilst they lack the mobility of Inceptors, they can pose a real threat in CC and can double their fire if they do not need to move. Flamestorm Aggressors are unit that even Orks will fear to charge although some may find their short range problematic.

 

I am considering the value of Dreads Axe/Shield dreads. They are pretty tough, get 8 attacks each vs infantry and have a 4++ to protect against hidden power klaws and the like. Chuck on a heavy flamer to knock a few orks down with overwatch and they look good. Even a 30-strong mob will not kill one on the charge with average rolls. I would run 2-3 backed up by an Iron Priest with Armour of Russ to patch them up and keep them in the fight longer and make opposing units fight last. Against tougher units, they can use their Axe in chop mode and you can pop "Wisdom of the Ancients" to allow them to reroll 1s.

 

Don't overlook Orks' fire support. Some of their new guns look very deadly so outflanking a unit or two to take Orks support will be worth considering.

 

Repulsors look like a good unit aganist Orks. With all those gatling cannons and storm bolters etc, it puts out an average of 45 shots per turn (dakka build). It has T8 so Boyz only wound it on a 6 in melee and it can FLY meaning it cannot be bogged down in melee either. It can put down around 20 boys per turn with average rolling and that goes up if you get a Wolf Lord or WGBL nearby for rerolls. You can even put your Flamestorm Aggressors inside while you wait for the green tide to hit and then unleash them for clean-up.

[Karhedron]

Grey Hunters or Blood Claws in metal bawkses will also be reliable choices against Orks I think. The transport will take the brunt of the charge and hopefully survive. Next turn the Troops inside disembark and the transport withdraws. Then the troops shoot and charge. A 10-man pack should take down about 10 Boyz before special weapons or Auras are taken into account.

 

Razorbacks get better shooting, Rhinos hold more Troops so take your pick. Watch out for wrapping round though.