Admech in ITC

[synthaside]

Yes Stygies  / Raven for the knight support  , i'm actually looking at dropping the knights for my future events  and keeping it pure mechanicum , with the points drops on most of our special weapons and kataphrons into a more usable state , i'm looking forward  to  a 1750 heat 4 game where i have basically a full ad mech brigade .

I dont feel kastelans are good enough unless they are in double shoot mode and with ITC terrian rules its WAY to easy to for a good opponent to nullify them , in moving to a full brigade  i'm also looking at units of hoplites  , i tested some peltists last night as well but it didnt really work out for me , this may be because of nurgle , all my targets were T5 or better and that meant that they were just Ap -2 lasguns 

I'm considering a few Rustalkers  as some cheap combat mortal wound output,  at 110 they weren't worth it but at 75 points for 10 wounds movement 8 that doesn't seem that bad.

 

[Gaz1858]

I ran an IKnight previously to and with the points reductions etc I have now removed it.

 

Kastelans have pretty much always performed well for me and it is deoendant upon the terrain you see at your events. My locals does have a lot of terrain but never enough to nullify them completely, they always find something to do!

 

I would consider some Hoplites to put into one of the Termites, I just dont see the point of Peltasts to be honest.

[Prot]

While my experience tells me “big stuff” is in a very poor position in competitive play, I think it’s hard to replace the pure function of the Knight(s).

 

I know that I personally prefer the Warglaive. I think it’s under appreciated. Sometimes I feel like it gives AdMech everything it’s missing (except a psychic phase). Speed, close combat, survivabilty and a good anti tank weapon all in one.

 

I know a Neutron Dunecrawler is a solid unit but my last 2-3 games I’ve pulled them and really haven’t missed them. Like a lot if AdMech units they bring one good function to the table.

 

Dragoons are something else that’s kind of faded for me. I guess because we are forced to use them, GW saw no reason to adjust them in CA2. I think when the codex first came out I could not imagine a game without my Dragoons. But a lot has changed.

 

I am not personally saying I wouldn’t use Dragoons or Onagers but I still think Knights offer AdMech some decent synergy with units that fill some needed slots for us.

[Gaz1858]

While my experience tells me “big stuff” is in a very poor position in competitive play, I think it’s hard to replace the pure function of the Knight(s).

I know that I personally prefer the Warglaive. I think it’s under appreciated. Sometimes I feel like it gives AdMech everything it’s missing (except a psychic phase). Speed, close combat, survivabilty and a good anti tank weapon all in one.

I know a Neutron Dunecrawler is a solid unit but my last 2-3 games I’ve pulled them and really haven’t missed them. Like a lot if AdMech units they bring one good function to the table.

Dragoons are something else that’s kind of faded for me. I guess because we are forced to use them, GW saw no reason to adjust them in CA2. I think when the codex first came out I could not imagine a game without my Dragoons. But a lot has changed.

I am not personally saying I wouldn’t use Dragoons or Onagers but I still think Knights offer AdMech some decent synergy with units that fill some needed slots for us.

You know i dont really ever think about the Warglaive or Helverin. How many points is a Warglaive these days?

[Xisor]

I was vaguely considering Warglaives for the 'speedy' role, capturing things that are... Over there. (E.g. 12"+ in the wrong direction from the rest of your forces.)

 

I guess multiple small Infiltrator squads could do the same, or even some fire and forget Ruststalkers ganging their way about the place...

 

But I guess Dragoons still feel proper for it.

 

And they're not bad in a punch-pinch either.

 

But Warglaives provide a more serious all-round contribution.

 

*And* they're suitably significant/imposong to work for psy-ops re: target priority too.

 

Hmmm.

[synthaside]

I actually combine both Warglaves and my single unit of dragoons  as single force which reaches out to grab objectives , quickly while waiting for my slower units to  arrive , the warglaves do things like tank overwatch for the more fragile and often focuse'd Dragoons ,   a  standard warglaive costs 164 points .

I feel like the warglaive suffers badly against hordes even with the sweep attack which the dragoons excel at dispersing , if i were playing 2 i would consider a cheap brigade and super heavy with either 3 glaves or gallent and 2 glaives

[MajorNese]

I was vaguely considering Warglaives for the 'speedy' role, capturing things that are... Over there. (E.g. 12"+ in the wrong direction from the rest of your forces.)

 

I guess multiple small Infiltrator squads could do the same, or even some fire and forget Ruststalkers ganging their way about the place...

 

But I guess Dragoons still feel proper for it.

Warglaives are indeed usable for capturing forward objectives, but more importantly for creating pressure. Infiltrators may be nice, but with the lack of resilience they won't survive that long. Also, the threat management target is different for armigers - armigers soak up AT fire that would otherwise hit onagers/bots. Infiltrators only soak up small arms fire and maybe a few autocannons, taking some pressure off other infantry. Depending on what type of fire you want to soak up, you gotta choose the appropriate unit.

 

For me, 2 warglaives are usually nice to keep the AT fire off my onagers. Our heavy unit choices are quite limited, but footsloggers can be fielded in enough numbers not to need an additional distraction. At least in my army, there are more than enough skitarii to get the job done.

[Vel'Cona]

 

Warglaives are indeed usable for capturing forward objectives, but more importantly for creating pressure. Infiltrators may be nice, but with the lack of resilience they won't survive that long. Also, the threat management target is different for armigers - armigers soak up AT fire that would otherwise hit onagers/bots. Infiltrators only soak up small arms fire and maybe a few autocannons, taking some pressure off other infantry. Depending on what type of fire you want to soak up, you gotta choose the appropriate unit.

 

For me, 2 warglaives are usually nice to keep the AT fire off my onagers. Our heavy unit choices are quite limited, but footsloggers can be fielded in enough numbers not to need an additional distraction. At least in my army, there are more than enough skitarii to get the job done.

 

Seconded on Warglaives.  They add incredible mobility, reasonable durability per cost, and the flexibility to deal with both hard targets and small groups.  They can't handle full hordes alone, but they're fast enough to outpace them and set up for a clutch charge to take down priority targets on turn 2 or 3.

[Gaz1858]

To act as devils advocate is it probable that the termite does everything the warglaive does? And cheaper...?

 

Its got the same weapons really so lets ignore those. The warglaive has 2 more wounds, moves faster, 5++ and can sweep for more attacks

 

The terrax however can deepstrike (to nullify some of the movement), +1S and +1T, a few more shots with the 2 stormbolters than the warglaives stubber, carries 12 infantry, benefits from dogma and has the mortal wound capability.

 

The warglaive is 162 and the Terrax is 134 so 28 points of difference. Thoughts on this in a tourney setting?

[synthaside]

The Invulnerable save makes a huge difference here, lascannon class weapons absolutely shred termites as do things like torsion cannon, Meltas doom + dark lances etc , shining spears , hell even dark reapers with doom will cause them a mischief.  In what feels like a knight heavy meta people bring plenty that wounds t8 on a 3  the 5++ save compared to a  6+  or none against -4 is a big difference , that’s before we take into account degradation … it only takes 5 wounds on a termite before its moving 6 rolling d6 attacks  and shooting on 4’s , that’s one decent hit , a Glaive

While the termite is defiantly cheaper and there are always room for them in my lists to take them instead of glaives  you are giving up 1 turn of shooting to deepstrike it its  range is very limited  12 inches compared to 30 ( if my memory serves on the thermal spear)

A savvy opponent will deploy /zone you out so cant deploy anywhere near where the  terrax weapons can shoot anything but chaff  yes they offload a nice bunch of obsec troopers and I have used them for this function but … a house raven warglaive moves 14+d6  and shoots at bs 3+ first turn … often inside melta range (15)

Finally cost …  2 terrax will cost you what £160  2  Warglaive's are £38 ? I know which my wallet prefers .

[MajorNese]

To act as devils advocate is it probable that the termite does everything the warglaive does? And cheaper...?

IMO, that's not the case - it's doing something significantly different than the warglaive. Besides, the points calculation doesn't factor in the transported infantry - unless you're dropping empty termites, the 28p offset will evaporate with the first 3,5 barebone vanguards, not to mention the other bodies and special weapons.

 

The termite drops in turn 2 or 3, drops off some kind of infantry designed to take down a specific threat, and starts melta-ing and drilling into something big nearby. That will inflict considerable damage (probably more than the armiger does in CC), but the termite lacks the wounds count and invul to stick around for long, or movement to be more than a local threat. Upside, it is invulnerable until it arrives, downside is it won't pose a threat until then and thereby won't distract any firepower.

 

The armigers start on the board, and have extreme threat range. A guaranteed 16" charge (average 21") range will deter any would-be infiltrators (stealth suits, SftS agressors,...) from going anywhere near it, and if going second, it is a threat to anything advancing into its area. I've had armigers block and chop up transports in no man's land, stranding elite units out in the open. The thermal spear has 30" range (termite: 12"), leading to a 44" threat range (or more, if advancing) against vehicles. With +2W (compared to termite), 5++ and the option to increase to 4++ for a turn, it will survive against dedicated AT longer than the termite. Lastly, while it doesn't have canticles (without spending a CP per turn), it does have household rules that can be chosen entirely on what the armigers should be doing, not the rest of the army.

 

All in all, the termite is a one-use bomb, taking down one or two big threats in a small area, and suffering from the drawbacks of deep strike getting limited more and more. Armigers are distraction carnifexes that might be shot off the board before moving for the first time, but will definitely be a hassle if not.

 

My preferred option is the warglaive, precisely because it creates a huge threat range bubble and applies pressure by mobility while distracting from the neutronagers, something AdMech usually lacks. Additionally it opens up the possibility of adding a big knight to capitalize on the superheavy detachment. I can't judge if that is worth it in tournament setting though, as I don't keep up with the newest hotness.

[Anarnii]

Currently planning a 1750 itc list which I’m painting before a few events in spring.

 

Mars battalion with cawl, 5x3 Rangers with 4/5, arquebus, 2 neutron dunecralwers and 4 shooty robots.

 

Stygies battalion, 3 plasma vanguard units, 3 dragoon’s

 

Freeblade gallant.

 

Rules for the tournament means I can only use stratagems from the primary detachments codex. So freeblading the knight gives more options.

 

Do you think it’s worth swapping the gallant for 2 Armigers?

 

I’m slightly loath to loose the 2 battalions as wrath or mars eats CPs

[DeStinyFiSh]

Currently planning a 1750 itc list which I’m painting before a few events in spring.

 

Mars battalion with cawl, 5x3 Rangers with 4/5, arquebus, 2 neutron dunecralwers and 4 shooty robots.

 

Stygies battalion, 3 plasma vanguard units, 3 dragoon’s

 

Freeblade gallant.

 

Rules for the tournament means I can only use stratagems from the primary detachments codex. So freeblading the knight gives more options.

 

Do you think it’s worth swapping the gallant for 2 Armigers?

 

I’m slightly loath to loose the 2 battalions as wrath or mars eats CPs

 

I am not a tourney player nor have I used the Warglaives yet, so I can not answer your questions, but I think you should go for 2 Icarus Onagers, especially with Carl at your side.

[Focslain]

The Gallent has more raw hitting power then the warglaive, also it would be a good idea to spend the 1 cp to give the freeblade Ion bulwark so when you rotate it's 3++ (you can also spend another 1 CP to give it sanctuary so you have a 5/4++ in melee).

 

The warglaives are faster and have a decent ranged weapon, but there is a bit of a difference between T7 and T8 and the knight's ability to leave combat and still move at full effect is massive.

[Anarnii]

The Gallent has more raw hitting power then the warglaive, also it would be a good idea to spend the 1 cp to give the freeblade Ion bulwark so when you rotate it's 3++ (you can also spend another 1 CP to give it sanctuary so you have a 5/4++ in melee).

 

The warglaives are faster and have a decent ranged weapon, but there is a bit of a difference between T7 and T8 and the knight's ability to leave combat and still move at full effect is massive.

Unfortunately you can only give your primary detachment relics or strategems, so options to upgrade the gallant but I can still use rotate icon shields as it’s in the mechanicum codex

[Gaz1858]

 

 

To act as devils advocate is it probable that the termite does everything the warglaive does? And cheaper...?

IMO, that's not the case - it's doing something significantly different than the warglaive. Besides, the points calculation doesn't factor in the transported infantry - unless you're dropping empty termites, the 28p offset will evaporate with the first 3,5 barebone vanguards, not to mention the other bodies and special weapons.

 

The termite drops in turn 2 or 3, drops off some kind of infantry designed to take down a specific threat, and starts melta-ing and drilling into something big nearby. That will inflict considerable damage (probably more than the armiger does in CC), but the termite lacks the wounds count and invul to stick around for long, or movement to be more than a local threat. Upside, it is invulnerable until it arrives, downside is it won't pose a threat until then and thereby won't distract any firepower.

 

The armigers start on the board, and have extreme threat range. A guaranteed 16" charge (average 21") range will deter any would-be infiltrators (stealth suits, SftS agressors,...) from going anywhere near it, and if going second, it is a threat to anything advancing into its area. I've had armigers block and chop up transports in no man's land, stranding elite units out in the open. The thermal spear has 30" range (termite: 12"), leading to a 44" threat range (or more, if advancing) against vehicles. With +2W (compared to termite), 5++ and the option to increase to 4++ for a turn, it will survive against dedicated AT longer than the termite. Lastly, while it doesn't have canticles (without spending a CP per turn), it does have household rules that can be chosen entirely on what the armigers should be doing, not the rest of the army.

 

All in all, the termite is a one-use bomb, taking down one or two big threats in a small area, and suffering from the drawbacks of deep strike getting limited more and more. Armigers are distraction carnifexes that might be shot off the board before moving for the first time, but will definitely be a hassle if not.

 

My preferred option is the warglaive, precisely because it creates a huge threat range bubble and applies pressure by mobility while distracting from the neutronagers, something AdMech usually lacks. Additionally it opens up the possibility of adding a big knight to capitalize on the superheavy detachment. I can't judge if that is worth it in tournament setting though, as I don't keep up with the newest hotness.

Cool all good points. Regarding the points bit the Termite CAN transport infantry sk that shouldnt be added to its points cost. Its a benefit that it can. When comparing the two units solely the terrax is cheaper and can transport.

 

But yes I take on your points. I disagree and think id rather have the terrax for the overall ability to deep strike ability and objective grabbing but thays whats good about admech, different styles can still do well.

 

As for the money cost I have 2 drills and no armigers lol

[Focslain]

 

The Gallent has more raw hitting power then the warglaive, also it would be a good idea to spend the 1 cp to give the freeblade Ion bulwark so when you rotate it's 3++ (you can also spend another 1 CP to give it sanctuary so you have a 5/4++ in melee).

 

The warglaives are faster and have a decent ranged weapon, but there is a bit of a difference between T7 and T8 and the knight's ability to leave combat and still move at full effect is massive.

Unfortunately you can only give your primary detachment relics or strategems, so options to upgrade the gallant but I can still use rotate icon shields as it’s in the mechanicum codex

 

Guessing that is a tournament ruling. 

 

Either way the gallent does have a higher damage output overall in melee. Also if your freeblading and you selecting your traits or rolling for them. Cause Sworn to Quest will give it obsec and make it that much more a magnet.

[Anarnii]

 

 

 

The Gallent has more raw hitting power then the warglaive, also it would be a good idea to spend the 1 cp to give the freeblade Ion bulwark so when you rotate it's 3++ (you can also spend another 1 CP to give it sanctuary so you have a 5/4++ in melee).

 

The warglaives are faster and have a decent ranged weapon, but there is a bit of a difference between T7 and T8 and the knight's ability to leave combat and still move at full effect is massive.

Unfortunately you can only give your primary detachment relics or strategems, so options to upgrade the gallant but I can still use rotate icon shields as it’s in the mechanicum codex

Guessing that is a tournament ruling.

 

Either way the gallent does have a higher damage output overall in melee. Also if your freeblading and you selecting your traits or rolling for them. Cause Sworn to Quest will give it obsec and make it that much more a magnet.

.

 

It’s a tournament ruling. I was thinking of going legendary hero to reduce the need for cps.

[MechMan799]

While the Termite and Warglaives have similar weapons, somewhat, they fill very different roles.  If anything you should be comparing the Termite to other transports, which it fairs against very favourably.

 

The Termite deepstrikes and can auto-unload troops upon arrival (sweet), moves decent at 8", good firepower, great CC ability, with T8.  Thats pretty good for a transport, even at 134 pts.  Unfortunately, deepstriking is easily prevented by a decent opponent leaving the drill with less optimal targets.  That being said, with its T8, its fairs well at just driving up the board.  Field one in a Stygies detachment, give them the pre-game 9" infiltration first-move and you're well on your way to plowing into the midfield turn one for objectives or setting up for a round two charge.

 

As others have said about the Warglaives, they create excellent board control and an excellent threat presence.  Combine these guys with a squad of Dragoons, or even the fisty Kastelans with their new special detachment bonuses and your opponent will have to make some serious target priority choices.  The thing with the Warglaives is that I wouldn't field less than 3 of them in a Super Heavy Detachment (w/ household traditions) or 2 and a Knight.  Running only one or two and they are too easy to focus fire down.

[Gaz1858]

Finished the local ITC tourney and came 4th with pure admech.

 

List was Mars Bat w Servitor Maniple

Cawl

Tpe

 

5 plasma destroyers

2 x 5 rangers (1 with 2 arc rifles)

5 dakka bots

2 x icarus onagers

 

Ryza Bat

2 x tpe

5 rangers

2 x 5 vanguard w plasma calivers

11 fulgurites

2 Termites

 

Game 1 was againat Ynarri. It was a weird list with 2 razorwings, 2 wave serpents, 2 fire prisms, eldrad, yncarne and then a smatterring of units.

 

Tabled this one turn 4 partly die to him being fairly new and partly due to the lost he had not being great. The bots just destroyed anything they shot at. My termite with priests did totally nothing as there wasnt really anything for them to do

 

Game 2 was against orks

3 x 30 boyz, 15 lootas, 3 mek gunz, big mek w shokk attack gun relic, and then some characters like weirdboy etc.

 

Having known what these big boyz units can do I had to totally destroy one before moving onto another. With their 5++ it took most of my army to kill the first unit. The Ahokk attack gun rolled 12 shots, 11 strength meaning all hits did d3 mortal so bye bye destroyers!!

 

My priest termite came down and dealt with his character blob. This time the termite with vanguard in it had nothing to do. Big win but not a tabling.

 

Game 3 was against IKnights. He seized amd I didnt get enough shooting turns to take him down before he went into my lines and stomped to death. Had I kept forst turn I would probably have killed an IKnight turn 1, maybe a second or atleast seriously wounded it and its a.differenr game.

 

I learned that boyz units need to be killed outright. Kataphrons are still over costed. Id rather have more Kastellans. Termites are great but maybe Stygies is better with the additional move.....

[Clingy]

Thanks for sharing. What would you bring if you had to do it all again

[Gaz1858]

Working that out now. The servitor maniple inc destroyers and servitors would go. The idea of 10 vanguard with 2 plasma calivers each in a termite felt nice but didnt translate on the table so maybe more priests there.

 

I feel our troops are best as bare bones rangers as a screen and as objective holders. Our power is in Bots and Onagers for Shooting then Priests and Termites in assault.

 

I will try the Termites in a Stygies FW to see if thats any better.

[MajorNese]

With replacing the servitors for more dakkabots, how would you handle a larger number vehicles? Neutronagers? Termites and priests might be a solution, but could be stopped entirely with proper screening.

 

How did the termites fare, except for getting units where they need to get? They're rather expensive in points, and Lucius-ing 30 plasma vanguards worked well for me so far. 3 plasmas per squad were always worth it - the firepower gets back the upgrade points any time, and with a Solar Flare dominus they don't even kill themselves when overcharging.

[Prot]

Working that out now. The servitor maniple inc destroyers and servitors would go. The idea of 10 vanguard with 2 plasma calivers each in a termite felt nice but didnt translate on the table so maybe more priests there.

 

I feel our troops are best as bare bones rangers as a screen and as objective holders. Our power is in Bots and Onagers for Shooting then Priests and Termites in assault.

 

I will try the Termites in a Stygies FW to see if thats any better.

 

I would agree with that first statement. I am finding the Servitor Maniple fun, but the cost of CP, I'm probably better off just getting off another WoM volley with some priests or Infiltrators or something. The Maniple thing is fluffy and potent in everyday play, but I feel like they are too much work to become a highly functional unit. You have to dump a lot of points / resources / CP /Strats into them to compensate for cost / BS / Survivability etc.

 

I just don't think Kastelans are my answer anyway. I can use a few, but after a while there's diminishing returns there. Plus their whole mechanism needs an over haul. They aren't cheap, and once locked in they can get into real trouble. No one likes taking a Datasmith to basically 'repgrogram' them. There's a lot of fun, but funky mechanisms in AdMech that need tweaking this far into 8th ed, but my biggest issue is the soft ceiling I find with the Kastelans.

 

On the other hand you did great. Those are fine results and a record to be proud of.

[Suzuteo]

@MechMan799

Any reason why you did not run TPD + Plasmaphrons in the Ryza detachment and make that your Servitor Maniple, and make your Mars detachment your Cohort Cybernetica? (I think you'd have much better results with the Plasmaphrons then; the Plasma Specialists + Noospheric Mindlock is great anti-tank.)