Dealing with ork hordes.

[mertbl]

We are in the midst of Orktober. How are you guys dealing with 120 ork boyz? They are tough with a mountain of attacks and immune to morale. I dont think I've beaten an ork list in 8th(we also havent gotten beyond turn 2 or 3, but that's another point)

 

My current thought is 20 DW vets with storm bolters.

 

I normally run Raven Guard and have a unit of 10 VV with Lightning claws.

[BluejayJunior]

Bolter Aggressors can do some work. I don't have a lot of experience myself, but I know that Aggressors can put out a lot of shots. If I remember correctly, I think Aggressors shooting twice kill 14-17 orks on average. I would think stormbolters can do work too. 

[Panzer]

Anything with a Heavy Bolter profile sounds like a good idea. Also Aggressors of any variant.

[Schlitzaf]

Try to shoot/kill 13-15 guys from the big mobs. Because while they share each other’s LD stat which = Squad Size. If you can knock off 12-14 from each squad instead of just killing one you’ll actually do more damage. And sense at certain model counts (iirc is 20) they get +1 attack, by scratching multiple squads you actually remove more attack than wiping one.

 

Here a good example

3 30 Man Boy Squad: if i shoot one squad wiping it then kill 12-14 in another, the 16 man will pass its Morale on Ld30. If instead, I did about 45 wounds to overall between the boy squads then here what happens, assuming about equal equivalent (13, 15, 17)

 

Squad 1: 1d6+17. Using the least wound mob LD of 17.....the squad that lost 17 man, will lose another 1d6.

 

Squad 2: 1d6+15. The nearby Boyz Squad of 17 be used again. On a 3+ that is another dead boy.

 

Squad 3: 1d6+13. Now in this case only 5 or 6 will kill a guy. So let’s just look at the average.

 

The morale in this circumstance is actually 3d6+13+15+17 or 3d6+45 - 51. The average result of 3d6 is 11-12. Meaning we an average get 56. So you just killed 5 more boys on average. Compared to jusr wiping a single squad and wounding the other. In that case even if the boy squad lost most of its models, the nearby Ld30 will protect likewise for the squad that only lost 15. If you can the main thing should be bringing each squad below 20 models. Then focusing on trying to wipe one of the mobz.

 

Basically, remember Orks aren’t immune they simply have ld = squad size. If you kill enough of the boys in the army instead of trying to kill one squad at a time, they will break. Also here where things like Reivars become important. Reivars basically increase number killed by +1. Now in that example above. It’s now 3d6+48-51 = meaning you kill 8 boys or one third of a mob. If you got a second -1 stack like Angel of Death is now 3d6+51! Meaning you break 11 boys on average.

[CCE1981]

Assaulting to pull the boys squads apart or do extra damage does a good bit as well. It puts your opponent into decision making on whether he wants that assault or maintain 6” to not lose models.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Invest in a Thunderfire Cannon. The killing power against orks is awesome, but the important thing is the Tremor Shell stratagem. If multiple boys squads are stacked up, like at a choke point in terrain, pound the front unit and slow down *everyone.*

[Brother Captain Ed]

I get a lot of work out of fliers.

 

They have lots of mobility and firepower and this allows them to put the right guns on units like Lootas, or to hunt characters that would otherwise be behind a tide of boys. This forces the characters to move with the boys, which is no hardship since it frees twin-linked assault cannons for mowing down boys.

 

Even a single Stormhawk/Talon can really disrupt your average green tide list.

[FlamingDeth]

As an Ork player, I would say the best way is to advance up the field as fast as possible and meet in the middle somewhere everyone can have a good scrap. Everyone wins! But orks win more because they're orks.

 

...

 

Anyways, multishot models are definitely good. If you like dark angels, dark talons are really mean and eat mobs for breakfast, and orks have very little good antiair to retaliate. Stormravens with hurricane bolters are also probably good. Basically just volume of fire, quantity over quality.

[Lemondish]

I had great success with a heavy dakka focused Repulsor. Twin heavy bolters, both onslaught cannon options, the extra stubber, the two krak nade launchers, and 5d6 shots from the frag launchers.

[MARK0SIAN]

If you’re not averse to Forgeworld model’s then the relic leviathan dread can do some good anti-horde work. If you give it a grav-flux bombard you will be getting 5D3 shots against a mob of 20 orks. That averages 10 shots at BS2+ which will wound on a 2 with no saves for the orks.

 

That will put a pretty good dent in the mob of 20. You can give the dread two of those bombards so he could take on the whole mob or you could give it a storm cannon instead which is a flat 10 shots but would only wound on a 3+. For the icing on the cake it comes with 2 heavy flamers for finishing off the mob. The other option is to give it a CC weapon but as it would only give it 3 attacks it’s probably better to stick with the ranged options.

 

The dread does have downsides though, namely it’s points cost, but it’s also a single model so it can only cover a small area of the battlefield and will be a priority target for the ork gunners especially now some genius at GW decided to let some ork anti-armour guns hit on a 3+

[Ishagu]

Here are the real solutions:

 

Fire Raptor gunship. Ork will struggle to shoot it and you can erase one or two unit a turn.

 

Repulsors also work, loads of Dakka.

 

The obvious and easiest choice are a few squads of Aggressors. 5 of them have 100+ shots.

[mertbl]

You think flyers are still the key with their upcoming always hit on a 6 rule?

 

Here are the real solutions:

 

Fire Raptor gunship. Ork will struggle to shoot it and you can erase one or two unit a turn.

 

Repulsors also work, loads of Dakka.

 

The obvious and easiest choice are a few squads of Aggressors. 5 of them have 100+ shots.

[Ishagu]

They'll be hitting on 6s which is the same as what it was before. Just means they can't charge whilst you zoom around.

[Panzer]

You think flyers are still the key with their upcoming always hit on a 6 rule?

 

Here are the real solutions:

 

Fire Raptor gunship. Ork will struggle to shoot it and you can erase one or two unit a turn.

 

Repulsors also work, loads of Dakka.

 

The obvious and easiest choice are a few squads of Aggressors. 5 of them have 100+ shots.

 

 

You think hitting on 6s will help you much against flyer? Have you ever played against 7e flyer or invisible units? ^^

[mertbl]

I remember those days all too well.

 

 

 

 

You think flyers are still the key with their upcoming always hit on a 6 rule?

 

Here are the real solutions:

 

Fire Raptor gunship. Ork will struggle to shoot it and you can erase one or two unit a turn.

 

Repulsors also work, loads of Dakka.

 

The obvious and easiest choice are a few squads of Aggressors. 5 of them have 100+ shots.

You think hitting on 6s will help you much against flyer? Have you ever played against 7e flyer or invisible units? ^^

[Captain Idaho]

*note This is tongue in cheek and not actually directed at anyone specific here*

 

Refuse flank tactics work nicely enough since it reduces the amount of models you have to oppose.

 

Bolters. We still live in a world where Space Marines are seen as underpowered but context is important. What's your definition of underpowered? Can we still actually play the game against a reasonable opponent and stand a chance of winning?

 

So yes Bolters. Take 25-30 Tactical Marines. Add and replace with Intercessors as need be though their weapons aren't noticeably more effective than extra numbers/weapon upgrades.

 

Did you ditch your missile Launcher Devastators for Lascannons because the internet told you? You did? Well that was a mistake. Orks, alongside Tyranids, give Missile Launchers the greatest mileage.

 

***

 

Days gone by I'd laugh at Ork Boyz mobz because my Honour Guard would chew through them. Those days have ended but a solid counter attack by Vanguard can do the trick. I use Lightning Claws on 4 models and Chainswords on the rest (3 with Storm Shields) for a total of 13 Lightning Claw attacks and 21 Chainsword attacks.

 

Then the final bit of glue to put it together... target priority. Don't charge 10 Vanguard into 30 Ork Boyz. Let your Tactical Marines shoot up those 30 along with the Devastators. Put spare Storm Bolters and the like in that 2nd Ork Boyz mob so you weaken it substantially before the Vanguard pounce on the survivors.

 

The refused flank means you get time. Make the Ork player dance to your tune. But don't be a rabbit in the headlights.

[The Unseen]

That's freaking awfull advice Idaho.

Missile Launchers are just flat out terrible.

3 lascannons and 1 heavy bolter do better against all targets than 4 missiles, while costing less, because missiles are stupid over costed.

And that isn't even taking into account hellfire shells, or cherub/signum.

 

And seriously, recommending tacticals OR intercessors vs orks is just straight up shooting yourself in the feet.

 

Alright, so say your some kind of tactical genius and you manage to get 30 bolter tacticals all within rapid fire range of 2 units of ork Boyz standing in the open.

60 shots, 40 hits, 20 wounds, approx 17 drop. Mob rule means if your opponent isn't an idiot means morale does nothing unless you also kill lots of something from a second unit too from other units

 

You killed a hair over a hundred points of Boyz, but over half of 1 unit of 30, but you SPENT almost 400 to do it.

And now the smaller remaining ork squad charge a unit of those tacticals, and just straight remove it. 11 Boyz on the charge, 4 each, on average kill nearly 6 marines, so they even have a couple extra Boyz still.

And the unit of 30 you didnt touch multi assaults anything it can reach and kills/ties it up forever (unless you're ultras and they don't surrond you, which they should do)

Your barely going to dent the unit with overwatch, and they have spent 60 boyz, and they will completely win against 30 tacticals, all day everyday.

 

Especially if they trade 1 cc attack for bolters of their own with dakka dakka.

 

And it's even worse if your taking intercessors, as the ap barely even matters, but you have way fewer shots. And while their harder to kill, they will definetely lose the melee fight still, it might just take a little bit longer.

 

Armies with lots of effecient troops are the exact OPPOSITE kind of army to recommend our own very ineffecient troops to fight.

That's trying to play their game, and marines are very very bad at it.

 

Sternguard/vets with Stormbolters, scout bikes, vanguard vets with all chainswords (claws are a massive waste of points when your paying for ap that doesn't matter) aggressors, they can start putting in some actual work against hordes. Hell naked bolter scouts are a better investment than tacticals here, just like always.

They'll probably get one turn to plink away, and then they'll be speedbumps protecting your actual good units.

 

The refused flank is a solid tactic though.

Works to break up the horde into more manageable chunks, rather than trying to deal with it all at once.

 

But tacticals are definetely not the answer here.

[Panzer]

I remember those days all too well.

 

 

 

You think flyers are still the key with their upcoming always hit on a 6 rule?

Here are the real solutions:

 

Fire Raptor gunship. Ork will struggle to shoot it and you can erase one or two unit a turn.

 

Repulsors also work, loads of Dakka.

 

The obvious and easiest choice are a few squads of Aggressors. 5 of them have 100+ shots.

You think hitting on 6s will help you much against flyer? Have you ever played against 7e flyer or invisible units? ^^

 

 

Then you should still know that relying on 6s to hit is an aweful strategy and bound to lose you games. Luckily good BS matters against flyers this edition. Unfortunately that's not something Orks really have much access to. The new BS3+ buggy and Stormboyz could work against pesky flyers tho!

[Captain Idaho]

I disagree. It's easier to get bolter shots onto Ork Mobz with decent cover on the tables than they can reliably return fire.

 

Also, the efficiency of Tactical Marines, Intercessors, Missile Launchers and our infantry is increased vs Orks.

 

I'm not talking in isolation. Armies on the table, terrain, movement and the like.

 

Of course, if you just stand there against Orks and trade blows then yes, my advice won't work.

 

Sure I know our Codex needs work but I've been having great work out of my Tacticals and against Orks it's something they will perform better against than say Custodes.

[Schlitzaf]

To echo what Idaho said he said in a Tactical Squad. Not a Devi Squad. A Tactical Squads beenfits more from a Missile launcher* over a Lascannon because a Lascannon is only a one shot doesn’t want to move in contrast to what the Tactical does do it can get in rapid range.

 

*Personally always advocate GravCannons in Tacticals.

[Captain Idaho]

Don't get me wrong, our Tacticals and Intercessors need much assistance and fighting Orks is no walk in the park as a result.

[Basteala]

Aggressors are useful, heavy bolters maybe. 

 

Could splash a Dark Talon or two. They have the Adeptus Astartes Keyword. Nothing forbidding you from using them in your list.

 

Also if you're using a missile launcher in your troop choices, why not scouts with a missile launcher? Costs less.

[Captain Idaho]

Well you can't min max from different Codex books without using separate detachments lest you lose certain benefits.

[Basteala]

Well you can't min max from different Codex books without using separate detachments lest you lose certain benefits.

 

Really? As far as I knew you could mix and match them provided they shared more than the Imperium keyword (such as Adeptus Astartes).

 

Yeah it's true that you can't use DA stratagems on the Dark Talons in this way, but honestly the only one you really bother with on a Dark Talon is Speed of the Raven--which effects one unit anyway.

 

It's not like DA Hellblasters where splashing them isn't viable since half their value in DA is from Weapons from the Dark Age.

[BluejayJunior]

You are allowed to mix Dark Angels and Ultramarine (for example) in a detachment. It's just that if you do, neither receives the benefit of their chapter tactic. You could also take a UM detachment and a DA detachment and they would both get their respective Chapter Tactics.