Dealing with ork hordes.

[Slips]

Another unit to consider that is quite a bit cheaper than a Leviathan dread with Grav or Fire Raptor is the Sicaran Punisher:

• Punisher Rotary Cannon is Heavy 18 at 36" with S5 -1 D1; re-rolling 1s to-hit if you remained stationary
• 1-3 Heavy Bolters depending on upgrades/sponsons for another 3-9 36" S5 -1 D1 shots
• Bonus storm bolter if you want it.

All in all thats still a maximum of 27 Heavy Bolter Shots for just a bit under 200 points. Its a relic though and only T7 W14 3+ but hey, its something; sadly doesn't have POTM.

[autek mor]

kheres contemptor mortis dreads if your opponent doesn't mind you playing forgeworld. doesn't count as a relic unit either.

[Basteala]

kheres contemptor mortis dreads if your opponent doesn't mind you playing forgeworld. doesn't count as a relic unit either.

 

That's not a bad idea.

 

And honestly Forgeworld shouldn't even be a question anymore. Even FW marine stuff is on par, maybe slightly better than good GW in other armies.

 

At best.

[autek mor]

 

kheres contemptor mortis dreads if your opponent doesn't mind you playing forgeworld. doesn't count as a relic unit either.

 

That's not a bad idea.

 

And honestly Forgeworld shouldn't even be a question anymore. Even FW marine stuff is on par, maybe slightly better than good GW in other armies.

 

At best.

 

 

yes for 156 points it's not bad, i still think it should be more durable for its cost but you are still getting those shots off on a 2+ 

[Warhead01]

So far I agree with a few things.

 

Bolters, of all kinds.

Thunderfire cannons.

Flyers.

Assaults.

Refused flanks. 

 

The way I see it if you are going to assault 30 boys you might like to throw 3 or 4 small squads at the Orks in one charge phase.
This gives you the weapons specialists you might have put in those units all going first barring the Ork players uses an interrupt stratagem. 
With the number of new before game stratagems the Orks have gotten they may hit the table buffed but CP poor. 
I don't play Space marines in 40K so I have to ask, is no one using a whirlwind any more?

 

Further to that Marines can set up several pickets of scouts and empty transports, even that new flying not a land raider would be, in my opinion, a good buffer model. with it's fly key word it can just leave combat, or not be charged at all.  

Maneuver units will also be important. Even in a refused flank having units that can strike out into the Ork back field may get some of them to turn around, hit your targets then run away leaving those Ork units to be combat ineffective, they have to recover distance they lost some how. 

Lots of shooting. but you have to pick the right targets. 

as was pointed out before those thunder fire shells to slow down the forward units to congest the table, then more standard shooting at the units behind to rear most in range. set ups some strong overwatch or launch a preemptive assault from you defense. 

Do Space marines have a means of delivering Mortal wounds? Orks have bombers that drop loads of them. 
 

Really I should start a Space Marine army again.  Maybe in the new year. Maybe I can get it this weekend. this thread has me interested in Space Marines all over again. 

[Lemondish]

So far I agree with a few things.

 

Bolters, of all kinds.

Thunderfire cannons.

Flyers.

Assaults.

Refused flanks. 

 

The way I see it if you are going to assault 30 boys you might like to throw 3 or 4 small squads at the Orks in one charge phase.

This gives you the weapons specialists you might have put in those units all going first barring the Ork players uses an interrupt stratagem. 

With the number of new before game stratagems the Orks have gotten they may hit the table buffed but CP poor. 

I don't play Space marines in 40K so I have to ask, is no one using a whirlwind any more?

 

Further to that Marines can set up several pickets of scouts and empty transports, even that new flying not a land raider would be, in my opinion, a good buffer model. with it's fly key word it can just leave combat, or not be charged at all.  

 

Maneuver units will also be important. Even in a refused flank having units that can strike out into the Ork back field may get some of them to turn around, hit your targets then run away leaving those Ork units to be combat ineffective, they have to recover distance they lost some how. 

 

Lots of shooting. but you have to pick the right targets. 

as was pointed out before those thunder fire shells to slow down the forward units to congest the table, then more standard shooting at the units behind to rear most in range. set ups some strong overwatch or launch a preemptive assault from you defense. 

 

Do Space marines have a means of delivering Mortal wounds? Orks have bombers that drop loads of them. 

 

Really I should start a Space Marine army again.  Maybe in the new year. Maybe I can get it this weekend. this thread has me interested in Space Marines all over again. 

 

Nobody uses Whirlwinds due to their cost. The Relic is worthwhile, but the baseline one is about half the shooting it needs to be to compete. Actually, doubling its shots might actually make it a viable choice...we'll get back to that sometime. 

 

Repulsors (the flying Land Raider thing you mentioned) are pretty fantastic at Ork killing, especially if you run it all dakka. You can kit it with 5D6 bolter shots, 24 heavy bolter shots, 2 krak grenade shots, and a 3 shot heavy stubber at str 4, -1 ap. Range is poor so you need to get close to make use of it, but since it has fly even just with a 10'' move you can get it where you want it most times. It also subtracts 2 from charge rolls declared against it. In a reroll bubble, its a beast, but the biggest issue with it is that it's just so damn easy to kill now that everybody and their uncle brings anti-knight killing power. Not to mention, since its also a transport it will usually be a juicy target since taking it out will kill 2 birds with 1 stone - strand an important unit (sometimes with casualties) while simultaneously killing a tank. 

 

Scouts and scout bikes are a good option, too as you mention. Use the scouts to engage and slow down the tide, and the scout bikes to rush ahead and dakka the hell out of the horde. 

 

Regarding MW, one of the more common competitive lists uses scouts with sniper rifles and devastators with heavy bolters alongside apothecaries, cherubs, and chapter ancients to dish out a pretty decent number of mortal wounds. Its not really sustainable, but the MWs usually take out a chunk of something really tough so that the rest of the list can handle the chaff stuff. With full rerolls, you usually train the snipers on tough targets so that you can fish for the 6s more often, and the cherub allows a heavy bolter devastator to fire two hellfire shells for one activation. Then, once you start taking casualties, as long as they're near that relic banner, you have a high chance to use the strat again in the opponent's turn when you pull one of the heavy bolters as a casualty. Then have a chance to return the model with the apothecary. It's the basis for the Reece NOVA list. 

[robofish7591]

Whirlwinds are... OKish... I have used mine a few times and it has done alright.  Since it's stratagem isn't great, it has poor AP and it puts out a lot less shots than it seems like at first, it doesn't really perform.  The scorpius from forgeworld sounds pretty good, but I haven't actually seen one on the table.

 

Dakka repulsors should actually be pretty effective at thinning a green tide, the issue that they have is that they are expensive so that means less of the other stuff you want to bring.

 

As for mortal wounds... not really.  Outside of librarians casting smite, marines don't really have any big mortal wound generators, unless there is some forgeworld stuff I missed

 

Space marines just aren't in a great place at the moment.  Personally, I would say just go and have fun with the ork codex for a while and see what chapter approved gives marines before jumping in and starting an army of them.

 

*edit*

 

Pretty much what Lemondish said.  I did forget to mention the hellfire shells strat though.

[Marshal Wolfhart]

On the mortal wounds part: Hellfire rounds and flakk missile, from two Devastator squads, with armorium cherub and signum each kind of puts out a decent amount. But that's once and it's gimmicky.

 

I think we should shy away from vehicle based options, moreso flyers, due to the auto hit s8 ap-2 d6 dmg melta + autoexplode vs flyers artillery piece at 45 pts.

[Lemondish]

On the mortal wounds part: Hellfire rounds and flakk missile, from two Devastator squads, with armorium cherub and signum each kind of puts out a decent amount. But that's once and it's gimmicky.

 

I think we should shy away from vehicle based options, moreso flyers, due to the auto hit s8 ap-2 d6 dmg melta + autoexplode vs flyers artillery piece at 45 pts.

 

Keep in mind that this gimmick took 4th at BoS and 15th at NOVA. That's pretty high for mostly mono-marine lists. That's not to say that everybody should play their games or design their lists as if they're top level tournament players facing other top level tournament players. That's absurd - don't make that be the take away here. 

 

However, its important to note that success in an extremely competitive environment like that tends to elevate a tactic from gimmick to valid strategy pretty quickly. Its all about the synergy there. Kill or damage the hell out of the heavy, tough things with the MWs and clean up with the shooty and/or choppy stuff in the rest of the list. Also focus those same tough targets with the scout snipers - they'll fail most of their wound rolls, which with rerolls gives a ton more chances at fishing for the MWs. 

 

But other than snipers, psykers, and strats - there aren't any other sources and I should have probably clarified that before.

 

A buffed up Rune Priest with 20 attacks thrown into a green tide could really do damage - that's 20 attacks still, right?

[mertbl]

 

A buffed up Rune Priest with 20 attacks thrown into a green tide could really do damage - that's 20 attacks still, right?

 

Go on...

[Kallas]

A buffed up Rune Priest with 20 attacks thrown into a green tide could really do damage - that's 20 attacks still, right?

 

Go on...

It's 20 attacks after a Psychic Power (WC7), a Relic (Wulfen Stone)/Warlord Trait (Saga of the Wolfkin - either on themselves, or through the Deed having been triggered in a previous Fight Phase); and either Honour the Chapter (3CP) or Only In Death (2CP, plus death).

 

It sounds amazing, but in practice you'd get maybe 20 attacks out of him* and he'd probably be dead. 10 Attacks, let's assume an Axe, a Wolf Lord nearby for reroll 1s to hit, and Seeking a Saga (1CP, can reroll all failed wounds against a unit with higher PL; a big mob of 30 Boyz definitely has higher PL):

10*0.972 (2+tHrr1) *0.88 (3+tWrrA) = 8.55 dead Ork Boyz. A mighty 63pts (if the rumoured Codex/CA points increase does indeed up them to 7ppm) or Boyz - otherwise known as half of his own cost (assuming a Jump Pack, and really he should absolutely have a Jump Pack).

 

In return, 20 Boyz + 1 Nob will absolutely muller him; so Only In Death will go off and he'll kill another 8.55, for a total of 17ish Boyz (around 126pts, which is approximately his points back).

 

Not really an amazing return on investment.

 

 

 

* Unless we're talking about whichever podcast it was where the hosts were jerking themselves off about the "supa amayzing Roone Priest!" where they got half of the rules wrong when talking about it and massively overestimated what would likely happen. Best case scenario: the Rune Priest might jump on a character and have a good chance of forcing through wounds, given his high volume of attacks.

[Panzer]

Yeah pumped up characters can do a LOT of damage (Captain Smash anyone?) but for that they need to get thrown at an expensive unit. Against hordes they still kill a lot of models but not a lot of points ... and while their offensive capabilities is pushed to the utmost limit, they still are as durable as any other Captain etc.

[MARK0SIAN]

All the mentions of poor return on investment basically sum up the problem you’ll face. All the weapons/units that are good at killing hordes cost way more than the hordes themselves.

 

I’m afraid, until they address that problem it’s always going to be an uphill struggle against orks.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think interceptors with their fancy boaters could be very useful. They're fast enough to be tough for orks to track down and with the fly rule can shoot after retreating and t5 is pretty relevant v. Orks.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

*Inceptors. Interceptors are a GK unit.

[Guest MistaGav]

Just to list a few off of the top of my head that would be pretty good.

Sicaran Punisher, Fire Raptor, HB Rapier battery, Mortis dreads (Contemptor or normal ones) W Heavy Bolters or AC

Redemptor Dreadnought, Repulsor, Aggressors, Inceptors, Dark Talon, Talonmasters, Scout Bikers, AC Razorbacks.

If you're into allies, Custodes Bikers for CC, Deathwatch kill teams (Primaris or regular ones), CC knights to go tap dancing.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

*Inceptors. Interceptors are a GK unit.

My autocorrect prefers interceptors lol

 

Edit: There really should be a phone app that adds our 40k terms into our phones.

[Panzer]

 

*Inceptors. Interceptors are a GK unit.

My autocorrect prefers interceptors lol

Edit: There really should be a phone app that adds our 40k terms into our phones.

You can do that with literally any keyboard you use on your smartphone. Type the word and if your autocorrect doesn't know it there's the option to add it to the list of words it knows.

[mertbl]

Mine speaks pretty fluent 40k.

 

What about triple predator on a skyshield landing pad? Picket line of scouts or flamer aggressors running interference.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

*Inceptors. Interceptors are a GK unit.

My autocorrect prefers interceptors lol

Edit: There really should be a phone app that adds our 40k terms into our phones.

You can do that with literally any keyboard you use on your smartphone. Type the word and if your autocorrect doesn't know it there's the option to add it to the list of words it knows.

I know that if you catch it will add it to its glossary, I mean pre loaded lol.

[justicarius6]

Just to list a few off of the top of my head that would be pretty good.

 

Sicaran Punisher, Fire Raptor, HB Rapier battery, Mortis dreads (Contemptor or normal ones) W Heavy Bolters or AC

 

Redemptor Dreadnought, Repulsor, Aggressors, Inceptors, Dark Talon, Talonmasters, Scout Bikers, AC Razorbacks.

 

If you're into allies, Custodes Bikers for CC, Deathwatch kill teams (Primaris or regular ones), CC knights to go tap dancing.

Fire raptors and other high firepower flyers would seem the ideal solution.... until you watch them get slapped out of the sky like mosquitoes by cheap spammed traktor cannons.

[PeteySödes]

I'll second the pull them apart view. As a SW I try to outflank a unit of wolf guard with storm bolters to harrass and try to divert a mob from their table edge.

 

This may change with mek gunz since prior to them being insane my ork opponents never really cared to protect their edge. Sicarans are pretty great too, even the vanilla battle tank will chew up nobs with mass D2.

[Warhead01]

 

Just to list a few off of the top of my head that would be pretty good.

 

Sicaran Punisher, Fire Raptor, HB Rapier battery, Mortis dreads (Contemptor or normal ones) W Heavy Bolters or AC

 

Redemptor Dreadnought, Repulsor, Aggressors, Inceptors, Dark Talon, Talonmasters, Scout Bikers, AC Razorbacks.

 

If you're into allies, Custodes Bikers for CC, Deathwatch kill teams (Primaris or regular ones), CC knights to go tap dancing.

Fire raptors and other high firepower flyers would seem the ideal solution.... until you watch them get slapped out of the sky like mosquitoes by cheap spammed traktor cannons.

 

It's the same problems over and again. We used to just counter artillery with artillery, back when basilisks were to be feared. 

The only real concern is how many traktor kannons does the Ork player bring.  

The other part of this problem is am I just playing against Orks or did I need a tac list that day.  

[StrummersGhost]

Since 8th started I've faced orks more than any other army. And most of the games I've won. However had a game against the codex orks tonight and got my arse handed to me. Granted it wasn't a serious game, my mate wanted to try out his codex with a fun 2k game so I didn't think too hard about my list.

 

The things I've found useful are more or less in line with what's already been posted but thought I'd still add my opinion. Prior to the ork codex I'd rely on intercessors, the - 1ap bolt rifle would for the most part negate any save for his Boyz unless there were any invul bubble shenanigans.

 

Stormravens, with hurricane bolters can just chew through mobs.

 

Devastators with heavy bolters in cover, with cherubs and stratagems have almost always done very well.

 

Initially tfcs with the stratagem to slow the horde was very effective however my opponent started to combat that by using Da Jump.

 

I've only recently picked up a repulsor and used it tonight against orks for the first time. It lasted 1 round before he was able to deepstrike a morkanaut into my deployment zone and smashed it to smithereens. Sad times.

 

I also used a sicaran punisher variant however again that didn't last long thanks to a unit of tank bustas in tandem with stratagems and dakka dakka dakka rule.

[GreyCrow]

Razorbacks with Assault Canons are the best option of these days across the board for Marines.