Plague Marine heavy forces

[apologist]

The general consensus seems to be that Plague Marines are serviceable but not essential to a Death Guard army. This seems a shame to me – I think that the marines should be at the core of any Legion/Chapter's forces, not their auxiliaries.

 

There's sometimes something to be said for force multipliers. At the basic level, consider the old axiom everything counts in large amounts: three Leman Russ tanks, for example, are a greater threat together than the sum of their parts. Are Plague Marines one of these units? Having multiple units on the board allows you to specialise the units – how would you do so?

 

Plague Marines have a great range of supporting units, in the form of elite and HQ characters. These are also force multipliers; and it's obvious that other units sometimes regarded as underwhelming – Plague Surgeon, Lord of Contagion etc. – gain greater flexibility and utility if they have more Plague Marines to influence.

 

+++

 

So; I accept that a Plague Marine-heavy force is never going to be world-beating, but how can we make the most of them?

 

Having lots doesn't preclude other units – which support units most benefit Plague Marines?

[BlackTriton]

The untargetable 20man plague marine list is actually valid.

Its a good target for VotLW and Blade of putrefaction.

It benefit from any support.

 

It suffer from being expensive and unflexible. Its also very bad at going second.

 

There is a good chance plague marine get a buff in CA in december, making them a better pick then. They are fairly close to being good already.

[Panzer]

I guess one of the greatest strengths of a Plague Marine based list is that it can soak up basically anything the first turn that's not on Plasma level with the new cover Stratagem if you go second. T5 Sv2+/5+++ is not to be underestimated.

[DuskRaider]

First off, the ones pushing the "Death Guard-less Death Guard" are tourney players, so I would ignore it.

 

Plague Marines are IMO the most versatile Troop Choice in the game. You can build a squad to accomplish just about anything in the game. Mid-range anti-armour? Sure. Close combat? Absolutely. It helps they're durable (not as durable as before, but still...).

 

I run massed Plague Marines. It's fun. People need to find a way to either uproot them from cover or stop their advance because once they hit the lines it's usually in my favor.

[CMDR_Welles]

I dont care about meta or competitive, so I take what I want. 

It hurts my soul to see people taking a "Death Guard" army that is either just Typhus and Poxwalker Spam or the three PBCs, 3 Drones, 2 DPs w/Wings, Herald, and Trees.... i.e. Death Guard in name only.

Is it really a Death Guard army if it doesnt have any Plague Marines? Plague Marines should be the backbone of your Death Guard army. It's what they do/who they are.

I run 3 units of 7. One with Plasma Guns, another with Blight Launchers, and a third with Meltas and a Flail of Contagion. 

 

I would run a big unit if only they could take 21 models in a squad... 20 is NOT a multiple of 7... 

[DuskRaider]

 

 

I would run a big unit if only they could take 21 models in a squad... 20 is NOT a multiple of 7... 

 

 

Same here. I've resigned myself to knowing I'll eventually expand my units to 14 max. Which, to be fair, is still a lot of Plague Marines.

[CMDR_Welles]

 

 

 

I would run a big unit if only they could take 21 models in a squad... 20 is NOT a multiple of 7... 

 

 

Same here. I've resigned myself to knowing I'll eventually expand my units to 14 max. Which, to be fair, is still a lot of Plague Marines.

 

I'd like to eventually do that as well. 

 

If I wasnt poor, disabled, and unemployed, I'd expand the Ashen Choir to three units of 7, three units of 14, and one unit of 21. I might not be able to field the large one in most games, but it meets the Sacred Numbers nicely. Of course, I'd also need 7 Drones, 7 Plagueburst Crawlers, 7 units of 3 Haulers.... You get the idea lol

[apologist]

Thanks for all the feedback, chaps – and it sounds like we're pretty much on the same page in terms of how important visually and lore-wise having a decent showing of Plague Marines is to a Death Guard army. 

 

There are some great titbits hinted at in some of the posts above; I'd love to hear some specifics. For example I'm not really au fait with some of the terminology like 'untargetable 20man plague marine list' – any chance you could expand on what that is? I'm assuming some combination of stratagems?

 

Similarly, DuskRaider, you mention that you run massed plague marines. How many is that, and how do you split them up/equip them?

 

Do you use supporting characters to try to influence all the squads, or do you keep the characters with certain units? 

 

I think it's precisely because they're so versatile that I find myself a bit lost in the options. I had assumed they'd be equivalent to Tactical Marines, but they seem to be able to fill lots of roles; from Rhino-based close assault squads, to damage-soaking objective holders, to defensive fire support platforms shielded by Crawlers and boosted by characters. How do you balance those roles in your armies?

[DuskRaider]

It depends on the points we're running. My friends and I tend to go for larger games so we can fit more fun stuff in a list. At 3,000 points I'll field 4 squads of 7 Plague Marines. Two of those squads will have triple Plasma (Plasma & Power Fist on the Champion, 2 x Plasma Gunners) while the rest in those squads are basic Bolter Marines. One squad will be Close Combat consisting of Power Fist Champ (usually still wielding a Plasma Gun), 2 x Flails of Corruption, 2 x Maces of Contagion (paired with Axes of course) and 2 x Blight Launchers. The fourth squad is kind of a swing option, I can either go with another CC unit if I feel like it or throw out more ranged fire. The three mentioned are usually prerequisites in my army, though. I have had some luck with CC squads outfitted as above but with Plague Spewers. It really depends on how dense the board is.

 

As far as Special Characters go, my go-to is always the Foul Blightspawn. His Flamer (Plaguesprayer) has the chance of being extremely powerful against both infantry and vehicles, he can gift any units close to him 2D6 Grenades in a turn, and he prevents any enemy units that have charged near him to lose the ability to attack first no matter what. The Biologus Putrifier is alright but no where near as good as the Blightspawn. He gives nearby Plague Marines boosted Blight Grenades and can work in tandem with the Blightspawn, although it's a bit of a one-trick pony and can be abused to high hell. 

 

Other than those two, I always field a Lord of Contagion. They're... not good. But he represents the same character I've been fielding since I began in 2003 (albeit with much evolved back story, etc. over the years). I can't imagine taking the field without him.

[apologist]

That's brilliant, thanks DuskRaider. Specifics like that are really handy for me, as I'm really only just starting to explore. 

 

In terms of the proportions of units you have, it looks like two mid-range and one close assault form the core of your force. The triple-plasma approach seems fairly common; presumably because it's a heavy damage dealer and because of the synergy with the Death Guard special rules. Do you find that you get many overheats etc., or do you have some way to ameliorate that? Plague Marines seem quite expensive to lose to that sort of thing.

 

From a beginner's standpoint, it looks like there are some choice that improve with numbers/more support. For example, blight launchers look fairly comparable in effectiveness to plasma guns; losing out slightly in static firebase units, and not benefitting so greatly from the Legion rules. However, there seem to be more ways to boost plague weaponry; so is it the case that blight launchers are best kept together with the bulk of your forces, and plasma squads would be better to send out in a Rhino (for example)?

 

The Lord of Contagion is a good example of the sort of unit that I would have thought benefits from more units of Plague Marines – the more you have, the more effective he becomes. Has that been borne out in your game? I'd also be interested in your thoughts on Icon Bearers. I really like banners for the visual appeal; just wondering if they've ever proved particularly useful/deleterious to you in your experience.

 

As an illustration: a Lord of Contagion with the Arch-contaminator warlord trait would presumably synergise well with advancing squads of Plague Marines with blight launchers/plague belchers/plague spewers – but would it be enough to outweigh the equivalent in plasma squads supported by another character?

[CMDR_Welles]

I dont have a Foul Blightspawn yet (want one), but I use both the Blightbringer and Tallyman. 

I run three squads of 7 Marines

 

Squad Verdi
Champ with Sword and Fist (from DI)
Blight Launcher
Blight Launcher
Banner
3x Bolter Marines

Squad Liszt
Champ with Plasma Gun and Fist (EtB model)
Plasma Gunner
Plasma Gunner
4x Bolter Marines

Squad Wagner
Champ with Fist and Plasma Pistol
Meltagunner
Meltagunner
Banner
Flail of Contagion
2x Bolter Marines.

Since GW missed a great opportunity to give Lord Felthius special rules (for such a cool model), he has become my own character; Lord Pavarottus. Before him, I was floundering with the army before it even got off the ground. I'd already started painting the Blightbringer normal Death Guard Green. I just wasnt feeling it. I grabbed one of my favorite paints (P3 Coal Black), and wondered if I could use it in some way. I painted up a test mini (Champion Verdi), and the Legion of the Ashen Choir formed. It was looking at Lord Felthius and his pose (it reminded me of an Opera Tenor) that sprung most of my armies back story and use for names of famous composers and the whole Operatic themes and such. My local group will let me use Felthius as a Thyphus proxy from time to time to give him some variation from a bog-standard Lord of Contagion. I've even done up a datasheet replacing the names of Typhus abilities to be more in line with the character. As long as the rules remain the same, no one seems to care. 

I also want to get a Daemon Prince (without Wings), just so I can name him Khul L'gan ;)

[DominikB]

Regarding the lord of contagion with Arch-Contaminator. Would you not be better off with a normal lord and the trait? Less bulky but those reroll 1s are nothing to sniff at

[CMDR_Welles]

Regarding the lord of contagion with Arch-Contaminator. Would you not be better off with a normal lord and the trait? Less bulky but those reroll 1s are nothing to sniff at

 

For me, I wont ever take a normal Lord. For one, it doesn't have Disgustingly Resilient. It might be the more "optimal" choice, but I just cannot bring myself to field one. It, along with Sorcerers, Possessed, Helbrutes, and Defilers feel tacked on. Like they were just throwing people a bone so their existing armies didn't get left out. IMHO, none of those units should have been added if they weren't going to have Disgustingly Resilient, or at least had actual new models to replace them (though, Helbrutes are pretty much replaced by Drones and Haulers).

 

One of the reasons I want to wingless Daemon Prince is because he'll have the reroll bubble. He'll be moving with the rest of the army, so no need for wings. 

[BlackTriton]

To elaborate, the untargetable plague marine blob list consist of:

15-20 plague marine with the cloud of fly stratagem played on them every turn.

We include support character, usually one or two.

We want: reroll one to hit, blade of putrefaction (and maybe putrecent vitality) cast on them if they charge plus arc-contaminator.

The biologus is used not because hes great value every game, but he makes it so that your blob can deal with anything up close.

Of course you will use veterant of the long war at every oportunity.

They already are so expensive, you want spend as little as you can on equipment.

2 flails is a must since they are mostly a melee unit, maybe a few axe. Or half shooty half melee with 2 flails 2 blight launcher, 5 double knife, 5 bolters. This give the unit some flexibility.

 

You will flesh out the rest of the list with PBC or drones (both if you play Pure DG), daemon prince, cultist to hold home objective. There are no points left for more plague marine or poxwalkers.

 

The strongest lists will take a DG battalion: 20 plague marines, cultist, PBC, Daemon prince, HQ to taste. Then allie in either : Plague bearer spam, bloodletters bomb, ironwarior cultist spam, tzangor bomb, Tson smite spam or any other combinaison of chaos trick.

[DuskRaider]

That's brilliant, thanks DuskRaider. Specifics like that are really handy for me, as I'm really only just starting to explore. 

 

In terms of the proportions of units you have, it looks like two mid-range and one close assault form the core of your force. The triple-plasma approach seems fairly common; presumably because it's a heavy damage dealer and because of the synergy with the Death Guard special rules. Do you find that you get many overheats etc., or do you have some way to ameliorate that? Plague Marines seem quite expensive to lose to that sort of thing.

 

From a beginner's standpoint, it looks like there are some choice that improve with numbers/more support. For example, blight launchers look fairly comparable in effectiveness to plasma guns; losing out slightly in static firebase units, and not benefitting so greatly from the Legion rules. However, there seem to be more ways to boost plague weaponry; so is it the case that blight launchers are best kept together with the bulk of your forces, and plasma squads would be better to send out in a Rhino (for example)?

 

The Lord of Contagion is a good example of the sort of unit that I would have thought benefits from more units of Plague Marines – the more you have, the more effective he becomes. Has that been borne out in your game? I'd also be interested in your thoughts on Icon Bearers. I really like banners for the visual appeal; just wondering if they've ever proved particularly useful/deleterious to you in your experience.

 

As an illustration: a Lord of Contagion with the Arch-contaminator warlord trait would presumably synergise well with advancing squads of Plague Marines with blight launchers/plague belchers/plague spewers – but would it be enough to outweigh the equivalent in plasma squads supported by another character?

 

I've been running Plasma heavy Death Guard for years now. Everyone used to think I was crazy in the days of Melta but it's never failed me. Concerning overheats, I generally don't over-charge my Plasma Guns if I can avoid it but if need be, I usually have decent luck. Late in games I'm more apt to do it, especially if the game is either really swinging my way to where losing a Marine or two won't be game breaking or if the game is close to where I NEED that +1 STR shot than I'll take the risk. Otherwise, you can't beat that reliable Plasma these days.

 

The thing to point out concerning the Blight Launcher is that it's an Assault weapon, not Rapid Fire like Plasma. Seeing as it's a Plague Weapon, it does gel well with Arch Contaminator if you choose that Warlord Trait. As far as Rhinos, I cannot comment. I have a few but I've yet to use them in game. I usually bunker down in terrain and make my enemy come to me or I march up the board (at times with Blight Haulers for the Cover) and take the fight to them. It depends on the enemy. For instance, I'll wait for Nids to attack me. There's no point in trying to get the drop on them, they're just too fast. 

 

My Lord of Corruption is usually stalking the enemy's deployment zone with Blightlord Terminators, Deep Striking in ASAP and causing chaos in their back field. Otherwise, he'll walk up the board with the bulk of the army (still with Terminators) and give his buff when able. Again, he's... not that good. A total CC HQ with no range of any sort in a relatively slow army is kind of meh. If anything, he needs Combi-Weapon options or a better stat profile. But, like I said, he's the main character of my army's back story for over a decade so I'd be remiss to leave him at home.

 

I think a better HQ for causing damage and / or buffing Troops is a Flying Daemon Prince. I usually take one of these with Suppurating Plate. When playing against hordes, the armour itself can cause untold damage to tarpits. I'll occasionally make mine the Warlord and give him "Tainted Regeneration" and he becomes a thorn in my opponent's side to remove from the board.

 

The Icon is alright... if I have some leftover points I'll drop one or two in but I don't think they swing the game one way or another. 

 

Arch-Contaminator does well to boost Plague Weapons, but I wouldn't compare them to Plasma Guns. Especially if something happens to your HQ that's supplying the aura, then you lose that benefit whereas Plasma Guns are Plasma Guns. They don't lose effectiveness. 

[Charlo]

Totally agree, Death Guard are Plague Marines and the infantry... Embrace 'em!

 

I think either small squads with maximum Blight Launchers or large melee-equipped squads ready to grenade things are the best ways forward.

 

DG are an army that doesn't kill. They play objectives and don't die. Always keep that in mind!

[CMDR_Welles]

I'm a long time Dark Angels player, and I've loved Plasma Guns for a long time. I love we get Blight Launchers, and they have their place. When I add more PMs to my army, they'll be Plasma Squads.

[Kilofix]

I find adding a Crawler for +1 cover and a Deredeo for 5++ helps the Infantry.

 

For an Infantry heavy list, I also like to hide 3 Daemon Princes, and lots of elites like Surgeon, a couple of Blightspawn, Tallyman, in their midst. Also, Nurgle Daemon Heralds.

[Charlo]

I find adding a Crawler for +1 cover and a Deredeo for 5++ helps the Infantry.

 

For an Infantry heavy list, I also like to hide 3 Daemon Princes, and lots of elites like Surgeon, a couple of Blightspawn, Tallyman, in their midst. Also, Nurgle Daemon Heralds.

Crawlers and Deredeo with a plague marine blob could be really nasty and tough to shift.

[Closet Skeleton]

First off, the ones pushing the "Death Guard-less Death Guard" are tourney players, so I would ignore it.

 

 

I pretty much exclusively use Death Guard as a tournament list because I find them too powerful for the few casual games I get to play these days.

 

My tournament list is Mortarion, 3 units of 7 plague marines in rhinos and 2 units of blight lords. It got lower and lower tier every event I went to but my win/loss ratio remained static because I would just dominate against less optimal lists to make up for every time a meta list thrashed me.

 

My one unit of Dual flail plague marines with knives are a points sink but have bailed me out so many times I can't drop them.

 

I find adding a Crawler for +1 cover and a Deredeo for 5++ helps the Infantry.

 

For an Infantry heavy list, I also like to hide 3 Daemon Princes, and lots of elites like Surgeon, a couple of Blightspawn, Tallyman, in their midst. Also, Nurgle Daemon Heralds.

 

Daemon prince spam is the least fluffy army in the game. Even Blood Angels captain spam makes more thematic sense.

 

I'm not a fan of the rules for Lords but mine fills a tax slot at a decent price and helps out with his combi-melta from time to time.

[Prot]

every once in a while I like to fantasize that this idea is valid in a competitive environment. I still pull out the Death Guard and just did so last night. I decided to go to a Plague Marine heavy list I had some success with a few months ago. The idea was to present multiple Rhino targets, and to use Poxwalkers to push the table coverage as far as I can and unleashing the Rhino loads with some dakka but a lot of Blight Grenades ala Biologus. (similar to my tournament list, just more of it).

 

I played Tau and was nearly tabled in 2 turns, and conceded in Turn 3. I don't know why I like to do this to myself, but it's like burning your hand on a hot stove. I guess I like to remind myself of that last big thread we had on this topic. Well I'm good and charred now for a while. I'll revisit this idea perhaps after Chapter Approved. :)

[Panzer]

Because you'd like to play more casual games every once in a while but fail to let your opponent know? I know that my usualy T'au lists wouldn't be able to table that in two turns at least. :P

[BlackTriton]

I tried multiple Plague marine squads, did not go well. They really tick for me in larger squads.

Even though they are awsome at every job I can give them, the cost so much the rest of the army suffer for it.

In large squad they act like cleaners, dealing those pesky last wounds, charging model in enclosed building, taking objective for the bonus point I need. all that from the protection of clouds of fly.

 

Cant wait to see what CA has in store for them!

 

Here is my idea of a Plague marine heavy list:

 

Daemon Prince (wingless)                 Double Talon

Plague Caster   

Plague Marine (20)            2x Flails / 4x B. Axes / 2 B. Launcher / 12 Bolters

Cultist (10)

Cultist (10) 

BlightBringer    

PBC                                  2x DeathSpitters

PBC                                  2x DeathSpitters

Bloat-drone                       2x DeathSpitters

Bloat-drone                       2x DeathSpitters

               

 

Daemon Prince (wingless)                  Double Talon

Poxbringer        

Nurglings x3      

Nurglings x3      

Nurglings x3      

Plague Drone (6)

[Emicus]

1/6 troop slots filled with PM is considered PM heavy? Even with a 20man squad i cant even.

 

Plague marine heavy, to me, is plague marine heavy. Multiple squads and sizes. Characters. Bit of support since they are the star.

[BlackTriton]

400 points of plague marine, nearly 1/4 of the list, is not enough for you?

 

Thats picky.

 

If they are a star, its a very dim one.