My gripe with mortal wounds

[Finkmilkana]

I think 5 phases. Inceptors, Centurions, Ironclads, and Land Raiders can cause them in the charge phase I believe.

Charge phase for sure, just couldn’t directly think of a marine unit that does mortal wounds in the movement phase.

[Montford]

 

Well, I for one have no objection to mortal wounds. It provides a mechanism to apply some damage to units/ models which would otherwise be nigh-undamagable.

 

Given invulns lose reroll and are capped at 3++, FnP stacking is stomped out, higher Sv suffer under the new AP system, not really feeling this complaint about "nigh-undamagable".

Some stuff is supposed to be extremely tanky and not shot off the table turn one. Character rules are probably a larger issue in that regard.

 

 

My entire army has no means of inflicting a mortal wound other than killing an enemy vehicle and hoping my opponent rolls a 6. I've been hammered with Mortal Wounds, especially by Dark Eldar, but I still don't feel its anything that requires change. Its just a factor I take in to account. Mortal Wounds have never seemed to be that much of an issue to me, but as I can see from this thread not everyone feels as I do. :)

[Warhead01]

Just to put it out there... Craftworlds can do Mortal wounds in most phases (4 out of 6)

 

Movement - Swooping hawks grenade packs

Shooting - Ranger Long Rifles, Waver Serpent Sheilds

Psychic - Smite, Executioner

charge - 

Melee - Dire Swords

Moral - 

 

Out of these .... the melee are the hardest to do, as you have to get there then hit then roll a 6 to wound.  Next hardest is actually the psychic due to the range (18") 

 

The other thing is most psychic mortal wounds are normally against the closest target so you can 'funnel' them towards either chaff units OR units with enough wounds or regen to tank them.

Orks to. 

 

 

 

To be fair, marines can also do MW in 4 phases. It’s just that most of them are very limited and don’t really impact the game that much.

I think 5 phases. Inceptors, Centurions, Ironclads, and Land Raiders can cause them in the charge phase I believe.

 

 

I think Orks are getting a means to do that as well in the new codex but can't recall for sure. Totally hope so though.

 

My "reliable" mortal wounds are all in the Movement phase as an alpha strike so far. And it can be stopped by proper model placement. cutting the majority of it out of action in the first turn. The other player then only has to shoot a few of my bombers down or , move so I can't easily swing round to get them the next turn or, and this may be easier, make sure I can't finish a move possibly forcing them off the table.  

Movement in 40K is just so important.

[LobsterHolocaust]

 

I think 5 phases. Inceptors, Centurions, Ironclads, and Land Raiders can cause them in the charge phase I believe.

Charge phase for sure, just couldn’t directly think of a marine unit that does mortal wounds in the movement phase.

Dark Angels can with Stasis bombs.

[UnkyHamHam]

 

I think 5 phases. Inceptors, Centurions, Ironclads, and Land Raiders can cause them in the charge phase I believe.

Charge phase for sure, just couldn’t directly think of a marine unit that does mortal wounds in the movement phase.

Cluster mines strat on Scout Bikes.

[Zodd1888]

KK, if people talk about 1kS and Grey Knights for Smite Spam please adjust.

 

Pure 1kS, not Supreme Command of DP and Ahriman, need those MW due to lack of bodies or war Gear suitable for various jobs. Grey Knights aren't being taken for Smite Spam, and it's all they have.

 

Zoning blocks Smite for 2-3 turns before you start hitting good targets.

 

We've got bigger issues than Smite IMO. AP, any troop with a 3+ or 2+, CP disparity between factions or armies in competitive play, etc.

 

The chance for failure on psychic powers is higher and unable to be augmented, by nearly every army, as you don't have rerolling on tests. 1d3 MWs on a 5+ with 2 dice for Smite or 40 Guardsman hitting and wounding on 5's against a 3+ save ends up like a pretty even split on average (1.5MW vs. 1.43W), until you factor in the actual roll for Smite (1.25MW vs. 1.43W). All napkin math but I hope we can see the forest through the trees in that the HQ cost more and odds cannot be improved like the Guard.

 

Anyways, you all can continue but leave the Pure 1kS and GK out of it. GK are a dead horse, and 1kS are number 1 Chaos allies but suffer the same issues as the rest of Chaos.

[toaae]

1d3 MWs on a 5+ with 2 dice for Smite or 40 Guardsman hitting and wounding on 5's against a 3+ save ends up like a pretty even split on average (1.5MW vs. 1.43W), until you factor in the actual roll for Smite (1.25MW vs. 1.43W). All napkin math...

 

Just for the record, as I have no dog in this fight, but the average of d3 is 2, not 1.5.

[Zodd1888]

 

 

1d3 MWs on a 5+ with 2 dice for Smite or 40 Guardsman hitting and wounding on 5's against a 3+ save ends up like a pretty even split on average (1.5MW vs. 1.43W), until you factor in the actual roll for Smite (1.25MW vs. 1.43W). All napkin math...

 

Just for the record, as I have no dog in this fight, but the average of d3 is 2, not 1.5.

I had made too many adjustments to that post, I caught that earlier but posted the old save

[MARK0SIAN]

KK, if people talk about 1kS and Grey Knights for Smite Spam please adjust.

 

Pure 1kS, not Supreme Command of DP and Ahriman, need those MW due to lack of bodies or war Gear suitable for various jobs. Grey Knights aren't being taken for Smite Spam, and it's all they have.

 

Zoning blocks Smite for 2-3 turns before you start hitting good targets.

 

We've got bigger issues than Smite IMO. AP, any troop with a 3+ or 2+, CP disparity between factions or armies in competitive play, etc.

 

The chance for failure on psychic powers is higher and unable to be augmented, by nearly every army, as you don't have rerolling on tests. 1d3 MWs on a 5+ with 2 dice for Smite or 40 Guardsman hitting and wounding on 5's against a 3+ save ends up like a pretty even split on average (1.5MW vs. 1.43W), until you factor in the actual roll for Smite (1.25MW vs. 1.43W). All napkin math but I hope we can see the forest through the trees in that the HQ cost more and odds cannot be improved like the Guard.

 

Anyways, you all can continue but leave the Pure 1kS and GK out of it. GK are a dead horse, and 1kS are number 1 Chaos allies but suffer the same issues as the rest of Chaos.

I would agree that GK and TS aren’t a problem (with GK probably being the lowest tier army in the game) but there are two key differences in your lasgun VS smite argument that I believe get to the heart of why so many people dislike the mortal wounds system.

 

The first is that the effectiveness of those lasgun shots will vary with, and be entirely dependent on, the stats of their target. Smite’s effectiveness is not. It is equally effective against a guard conscript or a Custodes terminator, both at wildly different ends of the scale in terms of stats and points costs.

 

The second difference is that the lasgun shots still involve some player agency from the intended target. The target player is involved because the initial dice rolls to hit and wound are not a foregone conclusion like smite is 90% of the time, but more importantly the target player still gets to roll their saves. Every main infantry unit in the game would get a save against those lasgun shots. Hardly any infantry in the game gets a save against the mortal wounds. It’s literally just spectating and removing models for the target player.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

KK, if people talk about 1kS and Grey Knights for Smite Spam please adjust.

 

Pure 1kS, not Supreme Command of DP and Ahriman, need those MW due to lack of bodies or war Gear suitable for various jobs. Grey Knights aren't being taken for Smite Spam, and it's all they have.

 

Zoning blocks Smite for 2-3 turns before you start hitting good targets.

 

 

 

For me it's not about how powerful 1KS or GK are or should be in the psychic phase. It's about the mortal wounds mechanic which I find harms gameplay and is a serious source of frustration for many. 1KS and GK serve as an example because they are best suited to illustrate the problem.

 

We've got bigger issues than Smite IMO. AP, any troop with a 3+ or 2+, CP disparity between factions or armies in competitive play, etc.

 

 

No doubt. But if AP, Saves and CP disparity already are a problem, then the mechanic that ignores most of the games core principles is even more so.

 

And this isn't just about smite but about mortal wounds in general. Especially about their proliferation in the psychic phase.

 

The chance for failure on psychic powers is higher and unable to be augmented, by nearly every army, as you don't have rerolling on tests. 1d3 MWs on a 5+ with 2 dice for Smite or 40 Guardsman hitting and wounding on 5's against a 3+ save ends up like a pretty even split on average (1.5MW vs. 1.43W), until you factor in the actual roll for Smite (1.25MW vs. 1.43W). All napkin math but I hope we can see the forest through the trees in that the HQ cost more and odds cannot be improved like the Guard.

 

I have to disagree here. No expert myself but afaik rolling 5+ on two d6 is around 83% probability. Add to that possible 1CP rerolls or modification through traits etc., which many armies have access to. Only counter is deny the witch, which is tied to psykers or has a price tag in cp, traits or so.

 

I then think your comparison isn't fair. The guardsmens efficency highly depends on the target they fire at. As they lose models throughout the battle their effectivness will decrease. While the average of smite remains the same no matter the target, positioning, modifiers, saves, pts cost etc. Psykers then profit from 8th eds character rules, which makes them generally last longer than the average guardsman.

 

That's where I see the problem. 40 Guardsmen cost roughly 160pts. BS, weapon stats etc. are all reflected in their points cost. Dealing out wounds with them isn't a given. Every army has a tool to handle them. Smite on the other hand comes free with every psyker, afaik isn't properly reflected in points cost and requires two dice rolls at most to deal damage to whatever target within 18". Only counter being deny the witch, which again is limited to psykers or comes at the cost of cps or other.

 

Anyways, you all can continue but leave the Pure 1kS and GK out of it. GK are a dead horse, and 1kS are number 1 Chaos allies but suffer the same issues as the rest of Chaos.

 

As I said before, I have zero Issues with GK and 1KS being strong in the psychic phase. But they could be so without mortal wounds. Damage can be dealt using the S/T mechanic (maybe ignoring invulns with some powers).

 

Right now I find the psychic phase to be dull and unchallenging from a gameplay perspective.

Imo there are different factors contributing to this:

1. Psychic defense is tied to psykers, which entirely locks out armies with no psychic abilities from this phase (bar playing a stratagem).

2. Damage is dealt only in MW, which again limits action to one player (bar removing models from the table).

3. Psychic powers across the board seem to be very similiar (pos. or neg. modifiers/mortal wounds).

 

I remember 6th ed WHFB's psychic phase to be very enjoyable. Each player generated a pool of dice for casting and one for denying. Amount of dice depending on your army's psychic capabilities. The casting player then decided how many dice he wanted to invest for casting and the defender did respectively for denying.

[Exilyth]

The d6 is awfully limited in terms of possible outcomes of a roll: there are only six.

 

GW has been experimenting with different ways to get around that limitation: They introduced better invulnerability saves as a way to make tough units tougher back in the day and now added mortal wounds to make strong weapons/attacks stronger.

 

In a manner typical for game developers, upon coming up with a new and shiny mechanic, they absolutely had to use that all over the codices and new units.

 

The alternative to good invulnerability saves and mortal wounds would be changing the system to a d10/d12/d20, but that would require rewriting all the stats and most of the rules. But that is a step I don't see GW making within the next 10 years at least.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I think part a big part of the problem with mortal wounds is caused by the supreme command detachment. It really enables MWs as a strategy, for example any chaos army can take several 1000 son sorcerers (well realistically daemon princes) with a very minimal commitment. Removing that detachment imo would really help address a lot of the issues in this thread.

[Zodd1888]

Fair regarding player agency and MW.

 

Fair regarding effectiveness vs. Lasgun, MW are better without augmentations.

 

I do not think 1kS or GK could be called competitive without MW however, and if you take MW from either army they're cut at knee. I think MW are necessary in some form of incarnation, maybe a 6+ save is allowed only? Applies to HQ's, non-Titanic Vehicles, and Monsters?

[Panzer]

TSons and GK aren't even called competetive WITH Mortal wounds, no matter how much they'd try to spam them. 

[Zodd1888]

Lol, I guess that's pretty true. Daemon Princes are really what makes Chaos tick.

[Irbis]

So, let me get this straight - you're playing army (BT) that trades some downsides for better units, then... Protest the downsides are actually downsides?
 
It's like playing Tau but complaining you don't have good melee options...
 

For me it's not about how powerful 1KS or GK are or should be in the psychic phase. It's about the mortal wounds mechanic which I find harms gameplay and is a serious source of frustration for many. 1KS and GK serve as an example because they are best suited to illustrate the problem.

 

But the fact it's so fast and ignores mucking with details works exactly as intended - if a mechanic is supposed to deliver X wounds, why waste fine tuning it till it does so instead of just saying X MW, skipping mucking with rolling wounds, saves, FNPs, etc etc?

 

No doubt. But if AP, Saves and CP disparity already are a problem, then the mechanic that ignores most of the games core principles is even more so.

 

That's the whole point, again - MWs are supposed to discourage unkillable death stars and huge models. It's like complaining paper is OP when you play stone and it should be nerfed to scissors - it's just another facet of the rules...

 

I have to disagree here. No expert myself but afaik rolling 5+ on two d6 is around 83% probability. Add to that possible 1CP rerolls or modification through traits etc., which many armies have access to. Only counter is deny the witch, which is tied to psykers or has a price tag in cp, traits or so.

 

Last time I checked, BT also have abhor the witch, one of the best anti-psyker stratagems. So, that's two.

 

And you ignore out of the box solutions. You play BT, the only SM who can chuck cheap, ablative wounds into squads, seriously denting effectiveness of stuff like MW or plasma used against your troops. What's wrong with doing so?

 

I then think your comparison isn't fair. The guardsmens efficency highly depends on the target they fire at. As they lose models throughout the battle their effectivness will decrease. While the average of smite remains the same no matter the target, positioning, modifiers, saves, pts cost etc. Psykers then profit from 8th eds character rules, which makes them generally last longer than the average guardsman.

 

So do MW. If you have power that deals 2 MW, you can kill two infantry models - or scrape paint on a tank. How is that any different? Even the infantry target matters - killing two conscripts yields less return than killing a custode. How that is different, again?

 

And the effectiveness of psykers stays the same just like BT marshal with combi-melta (or EC champion with black sword) will deal damage consistently regardless of wounds - why these two don't degrade, again, if psykers should?

 

As I said before, I have zero Issues with GK and 1KS being strong in the psychic phase. But they could be so without mortal wounds. Damage can be dealt using the S/T mechanic (maybe ignoring invulns with some powers).

 

It was dropped for a reason - see above. Have you ever tried psychic powers in 7th edition? They took frakking forever

 

I also disagree about lack of agency. You're looking at the matter from just one side entirely. For a lot of armies, MWs are the only way to harm hard targets - remove these and it won't be silly 'I can't roll armor save' (which you can't with melta too, but somehow that is fine), it will be 'I have no way to hurt this target whatsoever, time to pack and go home' type of lack of agency. Like 7th ed invisible stars or IH smash . You don't remember how ""fun"" these were?

 

I remember 6th ed WHFB's psychic phase to be very enjoyable. Each player generated a pool of dice for casting and one for denying. Amount of dice depending on your army's psychic capabilities. The casting player then decided how many dice he wanted to invest for casting and the defender did respectively for denying.

 

It was the same way in 7th edition. These 'varied' powers led to invisible stars, dice led to battery farms (complete with factions like TS landing 20 dice and completely laughing at any attempts to deny their powers), psychic phase lasted so long most people were sick of it and thought the system was complete garbage (and, coincidentally, removed 'agency' on a scale MWs can't even dream of, think impossible to kill models vomiting D strength hits by dozen every turn) - yeah, no. 8th edition is colossal improvement in comparison...

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

Lol, I guess that's pretty true. Daemon Princes are really what makes Chaos tick.

 

I think the key term in your post is Chaos. In every other edition Daemon princes would've been tied to 1000 sons (the fraction with the best princes), but now any chaos force can spam them the best ones. Deathguard, Alpha Legion, Daemons, etc. can all run multiples from a different codex without giving anything up for it. You take a rule like Mortal Wounds which is made to offset certain advantages and abuse it until its the problem.

 

Its not just chaos either, Eldar, and imperium armies can spam psychers/knights/random flavor of the month because of the detachment system. Its a root cause for a lot of the issues players have right now.  

[Zodd1888]

 

 

Lol, I guess that's pretty true. Daemon Princes are really what makes Chaos tick.

I think the key term in your post is Chaos. In every other edition Daemon princes would've been tied to 1000 sons (the fraction with the best princes), but now any chaos force can spam them the best ones. Deathguard, Alpha Legion, Daemons, etc. can all run multiples from a different codex without giving anything up for it. You take a rule like Mortal Wounds which is made to offset certain advantages and abuse it until its the problem.

 

Its not just chaos either, Eldar, and imperium armies can spam psychers/knights/random flavor of the month because of the detachment system. Its a root cause for a lot of the issues players have right now.

It's not so much the MW that the DP issue comes from, IMO. It's that and the fact it's a great assault piece that can take out a squad or two, at a reasonable cost. That said, I think Psykers are so prevalent because they augment a force, not the MW caused.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

 

Lol, I guess that's pretty true. Daemon Princes are really what makes Chaos tick.

I think the key term in your post is Chaos. In every other edition Daemon princes would've been tied to 1000 sons (the fraction with the best princes), but now any chaos force can spam them the best ones. Deathguard, Alpha Legion, Daemons, etc. can all run multiples from a different codex without giving anything up for it. You take a rule like Mortal Wounds which is made to offset certain advantages and abuse it until its the problem.

 

Its not just chaos either, Eldar, and imperium armies can spam psychers/knights/random flavor of the month because of the detachment system. Its a root cause for a lot of the issues players have right now.

It's not so much the MW that the DP issue comes from, IMO. It's that and the fact it's a great assault piece that can take out a squad or two, at a reasonable cost. That said, I think Psykers are so prevalent because they augment a force, not the MW caused.

 

 

There aren't very many reusable ways to abuse MW without the psychic phase. And those daemon princes ignore penalties to smite because of the 1000 sons legion ability. I mean they obviously have more uses but they represent 3 smites without any drawbacks that can be used after other psychers use smite and similar abilities. 

 

I don't have any issues with mortal wounds, I just think that the supreme command detachment is really abusable and people center on symptoms of the problem instead of looking at the root cause. The rule of 3 came about because of flying hive tyrants, jetbike custodes and tau suits, the deep strike nerfs are coming because of smash captains and to be brutally honest they wouldn't be necessary changes if they would have just fixed the supreme command detachment in the first place.

[Zodd1888]

Sorry, my intention from the statement was more that no matter if Daemon Princes had Smite or not they'd still be the chosen HQ for Chaos.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

[snip]

 

 

I suggest you carefully read my post and the thread again. You'll find the answers to your questions yourself (you even quoted some of them). 

 

Bottom line is, that MWs - or rather their ubiquity in the psychic phase - are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and that the fact that they ignore core gameplay mechanics harms balance and enjoyment.

[Zodd1888]

 

[snip]

 

I suggest you carefully read my post and the thread again. You'll find the answers to your questions yourself (you even quoted some of them).

 

Bottom line is, that MWs - or rather their ubiquity in the psychic phase - are a solution to a problem that doesn't exist and that the fact that they ignore core gameplay mechanics harms balance and enjoyment.

The problem does exist because some armies, or lists, cannot fit in everything needed or do not have unit/loadout availability to do all that is required to win.

[kombatwombat]

The problem does exist because some armies, or lists, cannot fit in everything needed or do not have unit/loadout availability to do all that is required to win.

I think the ‘problem’ Marshal is referring to here is unkillable/ overly-durable units that Mortal Wounds are designed to counter. The problem doesn’t exist anymore - in 8th Ed, nothing is so durable as to justify the existence of Mortal Wounds (as opposed to 7th Ed which was a very different story). These days the most durable units are dirt-cheap, single-Wound infantry (preferably with a FNP) that Mortal Wounds do nothing to counter.

[Marshal_von_Speer]

 

The problem does exist because some armies, or lists, cannot fit in everything needed or do not have unit/loadout availability to do all that is required to win.

I think the ‘problem’ Marshal is referring to here is unkillable/ overly-durable units that Mortal Wounds are designed to counter. The problem doesn’t exist anymore - in 8th Ed, nothing is so durable as to justify the existence of Mortal Wounds (as opposed to 7th Ed which was a very different story). These days the most durable units are dirt-cheap, single-Wound infantry (preferably with a FNP) that Mortal Wounds do nothing to counter.

 

 

Correct, that's what I meant. Even if Deathstar characters werer a problem, MWs in most circumstances would prove to be an unsuiting solution. The character and smite rule (closest enemy unit / closest visible enemy unit) make it very hard to target them with smite or for example hellfire shells.

 

Giving underperforming armies access to more mortal wounds would by a very shortsighted solution and cause heaps of new inter-army balance issues. Instead these armies should be buffed through pts and stat changes, traits and stratagems.

[MARK0SIAN]

 

 

 

The problem does exist because some armies, or lists, cannot fit in everything needed or do not have unit/loadout availability to do all that is required to win.

I think the ‘problem’ Marshal is referring to here is unkillable/ overly-durable units that Mortal Wounds are designed to counter. The problem doesn’t exist anymore - in 8th Ed, nothing is so durable as to justify the existence of Mortal Wounds (as opposed to 7th Ed which was a very different story). These days the most durable units are dirt-cheap, single-Wound infantry (preferably with a FNP) that Mortal Wounds do nothing to counter.

Correct, that's what I meant. Even if Deathstar characters werer a problem, MWs in most circumstances would prove to be an unsuiting solution. The character and smite rule (closest enemy unit / closest visible enemy unit) make it very hard to target them with smite or for example hellfire shells.

 

Giving underperforming armies access to more mortal wounds would by a very shortsighted solution and cause heaps of new inter-army balance issues. Instead these armies should be buffed through pts and stat changes, traits and stratagems.

Personally I think general characters are even more unkillable this edition (outside the old super death star builds from last edition) purely because of the character targeting rules. As you say mortal wounds won’t help with that.

 

I think those targeting rules need changing. I’d like to see a range limit on it, like if you’re within 8 inches of a character you can target them normally.

 

Or, failing that, I would like to see it stipulate that there must be intervening models between the character you want to target and the shooting unit. It’s silly that you can’t target a character if there’s a closer model that you can’t even see! And it’s beyond silly that the unit preventing you shooting a character could even be behind the firing unit.