Chapters still making standard Space Marines

[Captain Idaho]

I'm still hoping GW releases a new boxed set for the HH that has plastic Breachers and Destroyers, which would follow on and have new rules for 40K.

 

I'd buy 30 Breachers in a heart beat and then 3 Vindicators to build a themed Ultramarines list.

 

We can but dream.

[Robbienw]

 

We have actually had roughly equal releases for Primaris and Classic this year in terms of model numbers.

 

Primaris:

 

DA Lieutenant

BA Lieutenant

SW Lieutenant

UM Lieutenant via the Conquest series

500 stores limited Lieutenant

Wake The Dead set Lieutenant

DA, BA and SW accessory sprues

 

Classic:

 

7 terminator models from the Space Marine Heroes series 2

 

 

I know the Heroes models are only on sale in japan currently, but they are very easy to get via the internet and they will be released worldwide at some point, so they count.

Come on no one is counting the Space Marines Heroes as a legitimate 40K release. It's only in Japan for one thing.

I think it’s pretty absurd to say it’s not a legitimate 40k release

 

It’s space marine figures designed by GW studio just like any other marine model.  However you want to argue it, its still classic marine model output from the main studio.

 

They are only limited to Japan for now anyway as I said above. GW have said they are getting released worldwide eventually in their last financial statement.

 

The series 1 heroes are set to be released worldwide in November or December, we’ve already seen the packaging.

 

Plus its easy to get them over the internet of course, I got mine that way.  Delivery took about 6 days and the cost for the standard box of 6 was about £40 including delivery, so not prohibitively expensive.  The standard bearer model is more expensive, but that is because he comes in a box with a paintbrush and about a dozen paints.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

I doubt that there are any plans on getting rid of legacy marines anytime soon. Its just alot easier to design new kits in a different scale then add new kits to the existing ranges that people can't just kitbash.

[Astalon]

Imagine the irritation of being made an old Astartes version when you could have been created as a better Primaris marine and presumably it was randomly assigned among recruits.

[Ishagu]

Imagine the irritation of being made an old Astartes version when you could have been created as a better Primaris marine and presumably it was randomly assigned among recruits.

One is made using degraded geneseed, the other using a more efficient process with less errors, mutations or fatalities.

[Astalon]

 

Imagine the irritation of being made an old Astartes version when you could have been created as a better Primaris marine and presumably it was randomly assigned among recruits.

One is made using degraded geneseed, the other using a more efficient process with less errors, mutations or fatalities.

 

 

Yes indeed, but my point was more that out of the other end you'd be smaller, weaker, slower and have less impressive equipment.  On a personal level that must be annoying.

[Ishagu]

Absolutely. Thematically it does make a bit of sense right now as wargear shortages and existing armouries will indeed play a part in the decision, in universe at least.

[Brother Casman]

Yes indeed, but my point was more that out of the other end you'd be smaller, weaker, slower and have less impressive equipment.  On a personal level that must be annoying.

Given the usage of hypotherapy and indoctrination, I really doubt that the average battle brother will be annoyed that they're not a Primaris. There is a war on, everyone is needed for the fight. We must hold back the night!

[Robbienw]

I don't think it would be as irritating as you imagine.

 

There are honour and equipment based benefits to being a standard marine.

 

Your geneseed would probably be from a long, long line of heroic marines who have fought for your chapter for up to 10 millennia.  Your wargear may be storied relics wielded/worn through the millennia by other heroes of the chapter.  You may get to wear armour and fight with weapons that are more potent than any primaris equipment, such as terminator armour, thunderhmammers, combi-weapons and centurion armour.  You may get to use powerful weaponry of types your primaris brethren have no access to such as melta and grav weaponry.  You may get to crew powerful armoured vehicles and fighter craft that your primaris brethren can't.  You will also be able to have a more flexible mix of weaponry in your unit, so you are less likely to come unstuck when faced with different classes of target.

 

You'd still be a space marine as well which is enough.  Primaris are a bit more physically powerful, but its not as massive a difference as marine to humans or marine to primarch.

[Astalon]

I would have thought that in an ultra-competitive environment, which I think a chapter would be, any deficiency in personal performance compared to someone else would be a source of chagrin - particularly if you could have had that.  Regardless of whether you get to use different and more sacred equipment.

 

It would be good to know the amount of difference in strength and size that is implied, reading the codex and literature it isn't clear.

[Robbienw]

I don't know, I can't think of any chapters that are that competitive really.  A bit of rivalry definitely, but space marine chapters are brotherhoods with emphasis on honouring experienced elders, relic weapons and artefacts and avenging fallen brothers. They are not chaos warbands were everyone is competing for dominance.

[Ishagu]

Minotaurs and Ultras?

[Brother Casman]

Minotaurs and Ultras?

Sounds like the Ultramarines' Chaplains aren't doing their job.

[Robbienw]

Minotaurs possibly, they are a bit nasty.

 

Ultras no way, aside from a few 'intense' individuals like Sicarius and Learchus, they seem to get on well as brothers with little rivalry.  Even Sicarius seems more chilled out now in DI2 after his time lost in the warp.

[Astalon]

I find it hard to believe that even in a brotherhood, individuals who have self-selected as the most motivated and physically resilient individuals in an entire generation who have been gene-bred to be incredibly efficient killers would not be competitive with one another.  It's like trying to imagine a very well-gelled sports team having no inter-team competition, or people not being jealous if some people were given better training/nutrition/supplements than others on a random basis.

[Robbienw]

I'm sure there would be some competition, but not to the detriment of being an effective fighting force.  If a marine was annoyed they didn't get to be a Primaris then they would just have to put up with it really.  Just like if they were passed over for promotion or not elevated to the first company.  The senior officers of space marine chapters obviously think it is more advantageous to be a mixed force with both types, thus any line marine disappointed by this development must learn to live with it.

[Boldthreat]

I think Space Marines as a whole are highly competitive organizations.  Even the Ultramarines.  We are talking about elite warrior societies whose selection process is exceptionally brutal and difficult.  The net result is 1000 warriors who, by design, are selected because they are the best physically as well as intelligently, and they are absolutely competitive.  There is no Private Pyle in the Ultramarines.  Or the Space Wolves.  Everyone of them is an Alexander... or a Leonidas.  

 

I would wager that any perceived weakness in a fellow Space Marine would be dealt with quickly... and with a sense of finality behind it.  By their nature it would be difficult to find a Space Marine that "under performs", as these are the men who never have under performed in their life.  Like the Scout who messed up on BlackWater, he would be labotomized, his geneseed removed and turned into a servitor.  This kind of zero failure policy would be heavily enforced, as failure is anethma to these warrior societies.  Remember, each Chapter has only 1000 or so available billets, a rule followed almost religiously, so ensuring that each of those precious openings is filled by the absolute best you can create is critical... detrimental even.  That is why this whole "lets keep making inferior Astartes" thing is nonsense.  

 

I just do not buy this.  Call it my own personal head canon, which is all it is really, but I cannot subscribe to the idea that Chapters are still creating older types of Astartes at this point.  I believe the Dark Imperium novels further strengthens my opinion.

 

 

 

1. Most Chapters now have the means and technology to create Primaris Space Marines of their own (drawn from their usual recruitment worlds), though many still choose to create standard Space Marines as well for their more flexible and readily available equipment and combat doctrines.

 

Lets break this down.  The first part of the sentence is a given.  The last one though is open to conjecture.  What does "many" constitute?  It does not say "most" or "the majority".  Many could mean 50... or more... or less.  More than 1 is for certain.  But why?

 

More Flexible and readily available equipment - I do not buy this.  First it implies that the Primaris Equipment is less flexible.  This is silly.  The Mark X armor is a highly flexible and adaptable piece of power armor. It can be configured for stealth and surprise assaults.  It can be up-armoured and configured in a way that it almost matches Terminator armor.  It can be equipped with thrusters and jets and dropped from orbit.  No other power armor in the history of the Astartes is as adaptable and flexible.  The Bolt Rifle is just as well more flexible than its traditional counter part.  The same could be said of the Plasma Incinerator.   The Repulsor makes the Rhino, the Razorback, and the Predator obsolete.  It combines them all into one platform, that is also configurable and flexible to attack different situations.  Primaris equipment, from the get go, is designed to be highly adaptable, flexible and completely makes older types of equipment obsolete.  Now you no longer need to have a landspeeder crewed by two of your genetically bred supersoldiers... plus a whole vehicle built for them.  Now you can make some modifications to one warriors armor and drop him from orbit with similar capabilities and firepower.  When you only have 1000 or so warriors at your command... then this is HUGE!  

 

To further buy this, you have to assume that the guy who wrote the Codex Astartes and developed the concept of Space Marine Chapters, would go into the greatest crusade in 10,000 years with a product that was not fully realized and capable.  I cannot accept that.  We know that their are still units and equipment that we have not seen yet.  We know they are on the way.  Does this mean they are "new" in the lore sense... or will they just be shoe-horned in like the Storm Ravens and Centurion War Suits.  I am leaning towards the latter.  It is the only way it adds up.  The new units will have always been there.  When that happens, this fact will sound less plausible.

 

I also cannot accept that their equipment is more readily available.  Astartes do not die without their equipment.  In the biggest galaxy shattering event, it is clear that the Space Marines were losing.  Homeworlds are lost or severely damaged.  Chapters are pushed to the brink of Annihilation across the Imperium... but some how they have all their equipment?  Nonsense.  Cawl had 10,000 years to develop equipment and replacement equipment.  The Primaris Chapters certainly have enough.  And anyone who believes the Chapter Armories are not filled with artisans who can convert, repair or create replacement parts and equipment for their Primaris marines are fooling themselves.  This is a poorly thought out argument on why Chapters would create the older type.

 

And lastly combat doctrines... what?  The Primaris Marines were lead into battle by the same guy who wrote the damned codex 10,000 years before it was worshiped as religious dogma.  He has updated it in the Nova Codex Astartes  (I think thats what it is called now)... this idea that somehow a new battle brother of the older type is some how more capable of using inshrined doctrines as a newly created primaris marine is down-right ridiculous.  

 

This is just GW trying to have their cake and eat it too.  This is them playing half-ass with the new lore they created to justify their new miniatures while trying to not let their own new lore invalidate the older miniature line.  This is why the Primaris lore is substandard currently.  Because GW keeps wanting to play footsie with the old characters and stuff.  Don't get me wrong, I do not want armies to be invalidated.  People paid a lot of money for those miniatures and I would hate for them to be invalidated.  The Ultima Founding was this big galaxy changing thing... that didn't change anything?  The 13th Black Crusade and the opening of the Great Rift was this galaxy shattering event... but nothing changed and nobody died.  100 to 200 years has passed and no one retired... not even the older astartes.  Chapters were destroyed across the Imperium and the survivors were all on their back foot and losing... except they weren't and they still have all of their old characters and equipment.  Ugh... personal preference and I am just one man with one opinion, I definitely do not begrudge other peoples thoughts and reasoning's.

 

Mccragge is now facing its 2nd invasion since the 13th Black Crusade.  Ultramar is now guarded by 10,000 Space Marines.  9000+ of those Space Marines are Primaris.  8 of those Chapters are completely Primaris.  Of the two that are not, 1 was entirely rebuilt with Primaris and their equipment.  1 is slowly becoming Primaris... even Guilliman's Ultramarine Bodyguard, post the battle of Parmenio, is now predominately Primaris as noted by Cato Sicarius in Plague War.  We do not know how many traditional Ultramarines died in that fight... a fight they were less equipped for than their Primaris brothers. 

 

But we are supposed to believe that the Ultramarines are making new brothers of the older type?  Ultramar doesn't have enough resources to equip Primaris?   And to further speculate... if the Ultramarines do not do it... then would the Primogenitors do it?  Would the Imperial Fists?  The Crimson Fists (They didnt have a choice... they lost everything... twice... they have to be Primaris now)?

 

Someone make it make sense to me.  Please.  Why would you keep making inferior Astartes, when the new breed makes a better asset to fill your 1000 man billet?  Equipment be damned.  I would make my Primaris fit in Drop Pods.  I would make them ride in Rhinos.  I would give them regular bolters or convert older power armor to fit their frames if I had to.  But I absolutely would not make one more initiate that lacks the 3 new organs.  That would be stupid.  If I didn't have a 1000 man limit.. then sure... I would make as many older marines and Primaris as I could... But the codex is still in play... it still matters.  So I need to maximize what I bring up into the Chapter.  That is not traditional Space Marines.

 

This is a lore argument... not a miniature argument.

[Robbienw]

Your head cannon doesn’t matter mate. It doesn’t have to make sense to you.

 

Ultimately, GW have said that many chapters are still making standard space marines in universe for the reasons they have given, therefore they are.

 

If you don’t like their reasoning behind it, take it up with them perhaps? There is a lot of things in 40k that don’t make sense to some people.

 

Have to say it makes perfect sense to me, you aren’t going to throw away and suddenly not use all the valuable marine gear, especially if the Primaris stuff is not as readily available and is limited in scope.

[Boldthreat]

No, it does matter.  I am invested, heavily I might add, in the lore and background of the Space Marines.  For 20 plus years I have read, painted, fantasized and played Space Marines.  I have ate everything up when it comes to lore and background and I am huge fan, regardless of the direction GW takes their miniatures line.  This faction, and the world they operate in has shaped my view of sci fi since I was a child.  I love this game and its background.  I am not going anywhere.  I will continue to support this game because I choose to.  I am voicing my opinion on this board because its fun.  I enjoy everyone's opinions, even the ones that disagree with mine.  Even yours.  I do not care if I am wrong in the end in regards to canon.  It doesn't bother me in the slightest.  But I will voice my displeasure on things I feel are a misstep or not thoroughly thought out, in my opinion.  I will voice to you why I think its poor and what they could do to make it more realistic and better... mostly because its fun.  I enjoy it.  I hope you do to.  What good are our beliefs and opinions if we cannot come together and test them against our brothers? 

 

Case in point.  I remember a time not to long ago that I thought the typical codex astartes organization was kind of crappy.  For various reasons really, I had this belief since I was a child, and even more so after I served in the military.  But then I read an article from Apologist regarding not only his opinion on the lifespans of Space Marines... but also how they could realistically recruit, organize and maintain a 1000 man Chapter and stay within that forced cap.  It changed my mind.  So much so that I now have no urge to change that aspect of my DIY Chapter.  That is why I am here.  I want you to change my mind.  Saying "Because GW said so" is not going to do it.  I want to read about why Robbienw thinks its valid.  Or why Ishagu thinks the Primaris are great.  Because that is fun to me.  I will push back.  I will tell you why I think its silly.  Not because I want to change your mind... but because I want to read your response.  It might make me change mine.  I doubt it though    

 

I didn't become invested in the Primaris because I liked them initially.  My gut reaction was negative... because GW was flat out changing many aspects of 40k and its premier faction.  This idea that what was once myth and doctrine has been upended and usurped to sell miniatures that were not just an updated version of previous models.  I still struggle with that some.  But I accepted that.  I accepted that because there is something cool about Guilliman's return.  There is something cool about him reorganizing and revitalizing the stagnate Space Marine forces and equipping them for the final countdown.  The idea that here is a chance to update a faction whose TO&E was developed in the 80s.  There is something to bringing the Space Marines up for a new generation... for my kids to enjoy and discover, and for me even to learn and discover with them as a veteran of this world.  The Space Marines needed an update... a stream-lining.  They needed to learn from the lessons from Forgeworld and try to incorporate them into 40K proper.  What a time to still be a Space Marine fan.

 

But it has to make sense to me.  I am not a child anymore.  I believe GW and Black Library are more than capable of giving us educated reasons on why the factions in their settings do the what they do.  "Because GW says so" does not work for me.  Again, I will lay out why:

 

Primaris Space Marines... as far as we know... have opposable thumbs just like their traditional space marine counter-parts.  So this idea that they cannot use this relic bolter, or that ancient power axe does not work.  They can.  They are a little bit bigger than their more traditional brothers... but we already have lore of Chapters cannibalizing Power Armor (and even terminator armor) to fit brothers that are bigger than normal.  This happened prior to the Primaris release.  Sgt. Pasanius of the Ultramarines come to mind.  He managed to wear regular power armor.  Not only that but he managed to fit in a Rhino and a Drop Pod.  On top of that evidence, I also know that every Space Marine chapter has master artisans, serfs and techmarines who can design, repair, and replace equipment to fit their particular needs.  So even if there was an equipment shortage... I still would be producing the more survivable and stronger marines.  My Chapter would make the older equipment work.  Because these are the strongest and most intelligent men in the Galaxy.  They would do it.

 

But my position doesn't just stop there.  I submit that given all that has happened to the Space Marines in the past 150 years into this current setting, that no Chapter has vast stores of anything right now.  I would wager that realistically they were all on a back foot.  The Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, Crimson Fists, Blood Angels, Black Consuls, White Consuls, Scythes of the Emperor, Astral Knights, Marines Errant, Black Templars... they were all heavily hit.  Mccragge was invaded, and only the waking of Guilliman turned the tide.  The Phalanx was invaded and almost taken over.  Rynns world was facing another bout with extinction due to a demonic invasion.  The Blood Angels and their successors almost got eaten to a man.  The Black Consuls were thought wiped out.  The Scythes of the Emperor were almost wiped out and lost their homeworld.  The White Consuls did lose their homeworld and most of their Chapter to the Word Bearers.  The Astral Knights did get destroyed, but hopefully Guilliman found that wandering Dreadnaught.  The Black Templars lost many warriors in the 13th Black Crusade.  The Executioners could have been wiped out.  The Marines Errant had their geneseed stolen.  I can keep going.  Do not tell me that all these Chapters just had gear laying around after this stuff.  No, not when the setting has been clear that when Chapters lose Starships, and Terminator Armor, and their relic equipment, that its not easily replaced.  The Marines Errant, even before Vilamus, were noted to using xenos weaponry and heavily relying on the Chapter's Assault and Devestator marines to make up for their losses in Terminator armor and Heavy Vehicles.  This idea of vast armories of unused equipment does not hold up... let alone that they magically survive the death of the warriors that carry them into battle.

 

I submit to you Brother, that in my view of the lore of the 13th Black Crusade and the opening of the Great Rift... that without the Primaris Marines and the Ultima Founding... our favorite Chapters were doomed.  And these are the Chapters that GW care about.  Who knows how many unnamed Chapters were flat out ghosted.  We will never know, their fates left to our wildest imaginations.  But we are 120 years removed from that part.  I do not believe Space Marines live forever.  They are not immortal.  300 years and Space Marines start to show signs of extreme age and are retired.  And those are just the small amount of warriors that survive to die of old age.  90 percent are more than likely dead before then...  especially in these dark and damned times.  Look at Plague War... how many Space Marines died in that novel?  That was one battle!  The Novamarines lost their Chapter Master and most of their First Company.  Heck their whole Chapter took a beating... even their one squad of Primaris (who are twice as survivable as their older brothers) were wittled down to 3.  You honestly believe that it will take Centuries to fully replace to Primaris?  My God, the Ultramarines should be completely Primaris after Iax!

 

But our highly intelligent heroes would keep making marines that are less survivable in this extreme age of the setting?  Even Guilliman admits that the current timeline is ridiculous... and he fought in the stinking Heresy.  Most chapters should be predominately Primaris by now.  There needs to be a well thought out reason on why they are not.  An even better thought out reason on why, after getting the new technology, they would keep making older types of Space Marines.  Because they cant fit in a Rhino is silly.  Even if I had to have those guys kneel and could only cram 5 of them in there, they would ride in the freaking Rhino.  If I didn't have replacement Bolt Rifles, I would hand out Bolters to my Primaris marines.  If I did not have Mk. 10 armor to hand my new Primaris initiates... I would have techmarine bob and his army of servants fit him with repurposed Mk 7 armor to act as a stop gap measure... Id call it Mk. 9... just like Mk. 5.  I would make it work.  But what I could never do, is not make the strongest asset I could, that is twice as survivable as the older generation.  A tactical marine with an additional wound and an extra attack is still better than a traditional tactical marine.  And since I only have 1000 precious billets then by the Emperor every single slot would be the most effective asset I have available.  

 

So I am going to take the same sentence you have.  And I am going to state that its not the main GW Chapters that are producing the older type any more.  Its the many deviant Chapters like the Marines Malevolent and the Carcharadons that are scrapping by and making due with the older stuff.  The First Founding Chapters are all heavily reinforced and only produce Primaris.  As are most honest Chapters.  There... now my head canon matches GWs stuff again  They didn't specify who was still making traditional astartes!  Thankfully, I can always use the many outs and holes that GW purposefully leaves in to match my head cannon.  Another reason why all of our imaginations and head canon are valid in this setting.  Love you GW.

 

Personally, I would love for GW to release a Under-Equipped Primaris Squad.  A 10 Man Primaris squad that have older armour marks and traditional bolters on them.  2 marines can replace their equipment with either 2 traditional special weapons or 2 traditional heavy weapons.  Then the whole equipment shortage thing would make sense.  GW needs me... I kid I kid... but seriously GW, Under Equipped Primaris Squads... please.

 

On a personal note.  I am enjoying this conversation Robbie.  I know I am long winded... im too passionate about this stuff heh.  I hope you see this as the fun, spirited debate that I view it as... and not me just disagreeing with you to disagree.  I know you have valid reasons to believe what you believe, and its great that you have that view.  Cheers bro.

[Robbienw]

Well it matters to you obviously I’m not saying it shouldn’t, but what I am saying it in the overall universe, as in determining what is an in universe ‘fact’, yours or anyone else’s headcannon doesn’t matter and is irrelevant.

Because it doesn’t make sense to Boldthreat doesn’t mean it’s not the case in universe, and suddenly whatever statement GW makes is not canon because it doesn’t make sense to one of us. That would be ridiculous.

GW have said space marine chapters are still making standard marines in universe for the given reasons, therefore they are.

It is good fun to discuss why things don’t make sense, or to discuss various interpretations of vague fluff, of course. I enjoy these conversations too

There are a lot of things in 40k that don’t make sense. Space marine chapters being only around 1000 marines for example, guard regiments of around 5000 men, Titans being able to move and not fall over and a large amount of other things. The whole Cawl and Primaris thing doesn’t make any sense to me, but I have to accept it’s part of the universe, I can’t just say it’s not in universe fact because it makes no sense and I don’t like it.

 

A couple of slight problems with your statement that its not main GW chapters producing the older type; this is just supposition without evidence on your part, and is once again only head cannon. You can't really say who is and who isn't.  Your position also has evidence against it.  For example, we know from the Blood Angels codex that they and their successors are still producing standard space marines.  We know from the SW codex that they are still producing Bloodclaws.  We know from their inclusion in the DA codex that they are still fielding scouts and the full range of standard marine units. 

 

There is even evidence that the Ultramarines, the epicentre of Primaris integration, are still producing normal marines.  For example, take the lineup of the 2nd company in the Codex, as they were fighting in the Plague War.  Its roughly 70% standard, 30% Primaris.  There is no way it would be that ratio 120 or so years after primaris were introduced, with the heavy fighting that is going on in the DI era, without normal marines still being made.  Its stated in Honour and Iron the gulliman ordered Primaris integrated into the chapters, integration is not replacement.  We even have a Scout Biker making a quick appearance in Dark Imperium 2

[Astalon]

I agree with Boldthreat - if you're going to produce a superior marine version then you'd just make those, older marine variants and their equipment are essentially a 'sunk cost', it doesn't make sense to continue using something less effective even if you've invested in them recently.  I agree with the idea that this is driven by GW not properly thinking through what the consequences of upgrading space marines would be in-setting.

[Panzer]

Eh Marines are still Marines. It's not like they suddenly become worthless on the battlefield just because Primaris exist and there's definitely something to be said about strength in numbers. If you simply don't have enough gear for more Primaris then it's better to turn new aspirants into classic Marines instead of sending them home again.

Also classic Marines with the gear available can still fill roles Primaris can't do with their gear. Mainly anything with Terminators but also the versatility of Sternguard (unless you are from the Deathwatch) and Vanguard Veterans or even just Devastators with their way bigger range of available weaponry compared to Primaris Hellblaster.

[Brother Casman]

One thing that might be worth keeping in mind is Tradition. The way things were done before had the weight of 10,000 years of history, an unbroken line of descent from the Emperor and the Primarchs. The process of raising Space Marines to a given Chapter has been changed only slightly, even over that whole time span. The sheer weight of tradition, even for the most pragmatic, the-ends-justify-the-means¹ Chapter, is going to be a hard thing to shake off. It's not the most rational thing for people to do, but people aren't always purely rational. Further, we're looking at this with Modern eyes and mindsets, which isn't necessarily the mindset that the people of the far future have.²

 

Sure, the Chapter has been given the methods to produce Primaris Space Marines, either by Guilliman, or by a member of the Adeptus Custodes. And just that fact would be awe-inspiring alone - a person with a direct connection to the Emperor has graced us with his presence! But... but, they are asking us to upend 10,000 years of tradition... That has to be uncomfortable. Your average Chapter won't say "no" to this messenger - how could they? But it's a "yes" with reservations - tradition demands we do things a certain way, for this way works.³

 

So now come the trials. The Chapter makes some Primaris, alongside the traditional way, and compares the battle brothers that result. And yes, the Primaris Space Marine is somewhat larger, a little quicker, a bit more resilient... but he isn't tied to tradition as tightly as his brothers. He is a new thread in the tapestry of the Chapter. Time will tell if he strengthens it, or tears it apart.

 

Thus, I can see a way for Chapters to end up producing both "types" of Space Marine, at least for a while. They're seeking a balance between their duty to the messenger from the Emperor, and their duty to the traditions of their predecessors. Each Chapter will likely end up at a slightly different balance point, and it might even shift over time. Regardless of where they end up, they are the Angels of Death, charged with defending the Emperor's Works. His Will Be Done.

 

 

-----------------------------------------

1 - the only "end" that a Chapter of Space Marines should be considering is the defense of the Imperium, but your mileage may vary.

2 - a friend of mine is a Medieval historian, and is convinced that the Imperium of Man makes far more sense if you assume that the average person has a Medieval mindset.

3 - maybe not perfectly, but it works.

[Boldthreat]

No one is saying Traditional Astartes are not effective.  They absolutely are.  That is not the point.  The point is why would you keep making Traditional Astartes when you readily have the resources to make a stronger, more survivable Space Marine moving forward from that transition?  The equipment issue is not strong enough of an argument for me.  I believe Chapters have overcome the issue of oversized Space Marines in the past.  Sgt. Pasanius is one.  Ascanius of the Eagle Warriors is another.  Believing that a Chapter Master would not create a stronger warrior for the future and survival of his Chapter because of a ridiculous belief that a Primaris marine cannot wield a melta-gun, or ride in a Rhino is lore-breaking.  The Space Marine Chapters are full of artisans, techmarines, armories and the resources to convert, repair, replace and modify their equipment.  

 

I want to be clear.  This is the most import part of this whole post:  Robbienw is correct.  His position is backed by supporting information from GW itself.  I just do not buy Games Workshop's position on this so far, based on my own understanding of the lore up to this point.  I readily admit that my opinion is aberrant.  I think its a poor argument or justification.  But as I say, this is a great conversation and I hope you all enjoy discussing it.  

 

 

 

‘Archmagos Belisarius Cawl repeats that all gene-lines continue to operate at peak efficiency. Tested gene-seed reveals a mutational deviancy of less than 0.001% per generation. All Adeptus Astartes Chapters once again have access to the full suite of additional organs, replacing those zygotes lost through improper treatment or evolutionary variance, with the addition of the three new implants. All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation. As can be expected, those new Primaris-strain Chapters founded by you, my lord, have the lowest error rate. The new equipment functions well. Requests for resupply with the new type of battle-brother and their associated weaponry have increased, suggesting a ninety-four per cent acceptance rate among the Chapters.’

 

Lets read this carefully here.  I may be reading things wrong.  But this to me states that ALL Space Marine Chapters accepted Cawls enhanced Geneseed.  Not only did every Chapter accept the new geneseed, the geneseed they accepted produces 3 additional organs.  Fullstop.  If all Space Marine Chapters accepted this new geneseed, that produces the Primaris organs... then the ones that refuse the Primaris Paradigm (suggested 6% of 1000+ Space Marine Chapters... that is a tiny minority) are producing those organs and refusing to implant them into their initiates; Because they apparently want less survivable Marines filling their limited billets.  The elite warrior society... who only selects the absolute best and brightest of humanity via unforgiving and brutal selection processes... chooses to not produce the absolute best warrior it can create.  Three additional organs.  That is all the difference here.  

 

I do not buy its an equipment issue.  A Primaris Marine making do with converted Mk.2/3/4/5/6/7/8 Armor and traditional Bolt Guns is still better than a traditional Space Marine in the same equipment.  He has the same number of fingers and thumbs as the other guy... he can swing that chainsword.  He can swing that relic blade.  He can pull the trigger on that melta gun.  He can study the same Chapter heroes.  He can fit in a Rhino.  He can fit in a Drop Pod.  He can ride in a Thunderhawk and a Storm Raven.  The elite warrior society with an army of serfs and artisans will make that work.  That is a weak excuse.  One only given to keep older plastic table-top miniatures valid while we wait on the next line of Primaris.  That is sub-par lore.  It will be discarded the moment it is no longer convenient.  Its a stop gap excuse to keep you happy right now with the bridge gap codexes until we get the  new "NEW" stuff.

 

Lets take the Crimson Fists... or the Scythes of the Emperor... or the Black Consuls... They weren't just given replacement Geneseed.  They were immediately reinforced with Primaris marines in their own livery and completely rebuilt.  I would argue that they have more Primaris equipment than traditional...  Same more than likely with the Marines Errant. Why would they produce more traditional astartes at that point?  My argument that 90 to 100 percent of the Chapters, post the great rift, were closer to the Crimson Fists in status than full strength.  To assume otherwise is to believe that the recent events were not as bad as the fluff is making it out to be.  How can the Ultramarines suffer invasions from the Black Legion and the Death Guard and come away with the majority of their tradtional forces and equipment.  That is a disservice to the Black Legion and the Death Guard... we know those are serious forces.  I cannot accept that.  Granted... for some reason the Novamarines only recieved like 13 Primaris marines.  I just don't know on that one guys.  I still would be hard pressed to understand why the Novamarines would continue making traditional astartes at that point.  They are going to need more reinforcements now... that's for sure... 

 

Their other excuse was a doctrinal one.  That is even more ridiculous than the equipment issue.  Guilliman reformed the Codex Astartes.  We now have the Nova Codex Astartes.  The Primaris follow it just as much as the traditional astartes do.  The only ones who wouldn't would be aberrant Chapters who never did... but to believe that a new Primaris marine is some how less inclined to follow any Chapter's doctrine than a new Traditional marine is silly.  Absolute silliness.   Its like they want us to believe that they added additional organs but sucked some brains out in that process.  

 

Now the above quote does mention Chapters requesting equipment and resupply.  I have to acknowledge that.  To rationalize that... I have to assume that they need reinforcements yesterday.  They need a body in that billet right stinking now.  At the time this is happening... the Indomitus Crusade is still going and Chapters are still being reinforced by the transfer of active astartes from Guilliman's own Unnumbered Sons.  These chapters are requesting this manpower and this equipment because they do not want to wait on the production of their own forces.  That is reasonable.  But still does not justify the production of traditional astartes once the new geneseed is accepted. 

 

"Well Boldthreat... you old sourpuss... how would you justify it if you had to?"

 

Right... enough complaining about something I cannot change:

 

I received my Geneseed.  It has the two missing organs that traditional Dorn-Geneseed has lost over time.  It also produces 3 additional organs.  But there is/was a problem.  Through tragedy or sabotage I only have a fraction of what I was given.  I produce what I can... but its not enough.  I keep making traditional marines using my traditional gene-seed until such a time that my production of Primaris Marines reaches nominal capacity.  I would probably abduct children for geneseed farms and create as many sets as I could as quickly as possible... within 50 years I would be at full production.  While I was doing that I would ramp up the production/conversion of equipment for my next generation of Space Marine.  

 

No bullcrap about doctrinal issues.  No bullcrap about not being able to use traditional equipment.  A plausible scenario.  I do not think any 1st or 2nd Founding Chapter would have to deal with this kind of problem due to their stature or reputation.  But Chapter McNobody like me might have to make do.

[Beta galactosidase]

Yes, this is where correct ideas come from.  It's rigorously self-critical, and it's very well informed.  This is right.