Chapters still making standard Space Marines

[BluejayJunior]

What if the simple answer is that machines/equipment used to make Primaris don't replace the old equipment? So they can make a bunch of Primaris marines and still make the same number of regular Astartes. Assuming they have enough aspirants. If a chapter could make 100 Astartes at a time (just for example) and then got the equipment to make an additional 100 Primaris and the process didn't replace their ability to keep making 100 Astartes, why wouldn't you keep making both. As long as you have enough aspirants to make enough of each. It would increase the rate at which you get reinforcements. A regular space marine is still powerful, so if making them doesn't affect the number of Primaris being made, there is not reason to stop. 

[Boldthreat]

A fair point.  I would accept that if there weren't other factors hindering me from accepting it.

 

The first blocker is that we have a hard cap on how many Space Marines a Chapter can have at any given time.  This forces me to be selective on who and what I bring up into the Chapter.  If I did not have any limits on the warriors I could have... then yes... I would make as many marines as I had geneseed... including the older geneseed.  I would destroy planets of young boys finding enough suitable stock to bulk my Chapter into a Legion to fight back the darkness.  The problem is that I don't have that authority.  By almost religious decree I have to stick to 1000 Astartes.  So by that logic, I have to ensure that each of those 1000 slots are filled by the absolute best asset I can create.  If I have accepted the Primaris paradigm... then I would completely set myself to that.  The transition would be complete and as fast as possible.  For many reasons.

 

The other blocker to this line of reasoning is we do not know how many Primaris marines a Chapter can create at one time.  But what we do have is an idea of how many recruits a Space Marine Chapter gets, and its not even close to 100.

 

In the book "Legacy of Dorn", the Crimson Fists hold trials once every generation on the planet Blackwater.  We do not know if they recruit from more worlds, but lets just run with Blackwater for now.  The main character of the novel was the only recruit who passed the trials to go on to become a Crimson Fist, out of a generation of young boys on that planet.  Not only that we also know that according to Praetorian of Dorn... of the 1000 recruits who were selected to begin the surgical process to become a Space Marine... only 20 boys successfully survived that!  That is during the Great Crusade... when technology and reason were more understood and accepted!  In Sons of Dorn... the amount of boys who survived the transformation process was just as terrible.  Imagine, the Crimson Fists would have to recruit from 1000 worlds to net 20 new Space Marines... in a 30 year period.  Nevermind the time, effort and resources discarded to get those 20 Space Marines.  This is from a generation of boys across 1000 worlds.  

 

 

 

All Chapters who have adopted the Primaris paradigm have adapted to the new creation processes with minimal wastage of recruits or mistakes in implantation.

 

But along comes Guilliman.  Not only does he bring updated and more effective geneseed.  He brings them with 3 additional organs that creates a better end result for your 1000 man limited Chapter.  Not only does he offer you that, if you accept, he also shows you how to create them with less failure rate and a lost less wasteful in lives.  Now you get more recruits across those 1000 worlds that survive implementation.  Now you can replace your losses faster.  You wouldn't do this?  Really?  No way!  I would make the technology work.  I would not make another Marine with the inferior gene-stock.

 

94% of the Space Marine Chapters decided this was the way to go.  

 

All my aberrant opinion though.  I am not saying you are wrong.

[Lord Sinaris]

There is a lot of interesting stuff going on here, and after lurking a bit I thought I'd chime in just with some thoughts. Ultimately, the official canon from GW states that yes, Chapters still make regular marines. I think it is only fair to try and make sense of that as good as we can, given that GW provides only ever so much information and it is sometimes conflicting or, as I feel in this case, a threadbare, poorly thought-out pseudo-answer. So I feel it is only right to give ourselves some leeway to play around with the "official" GW position. Even if we don't deny its validity, we can at least reconcile our head canon with the official lore.

 

So to think this through: Why would chapters continue to make standard marines? It could be out of necessity, or it could be a deliberate choice.

 

1. Necessity: It's not really the core issue here, but it bears remembering: Some chapters could be lacking the technology to create Primaris (isolated from the Imperium maybe), some could be lacking the necessary resources to make enough of them, or could require so many new recruits that some of their old methods are still needed. Seeing how the whole process is pretty arcane stuff, we can't really make precise statements about how quickly any chapter could have a sufficient output of new marines going on. There could be a lot of setbacks in that process as well (whoops, 50 of our Primars just got killed in an ambush with no way to harvest their gene-seed? There goes our quarterly goals...), and its only good policy to keep the old marine-making-machines in working order for these situations.

 

2. Choice: I need to fill up 100 slots in my 10th company, and I have all the resources necessary to create both sorts of marines. So why would I ever chose to produce inferior marines? This again branches out in two directions: Lore/Background or, as given by GW, equipment/doctrine.

 

I could see a variety of reasonable lore explanations here - chapters distrusting the new ways, feeling that they need to stick to their traditions to keep the chapter strong in dark times for example. And really, if the new primaris-breeder doesn't come in my patented "Edgelords of Eternal Suffering"-black, what's the  point, really? How could they ever feel part of my chapter if they weren't reborn from a sarcophagus lined with razor blades and playing NIN-songs for a straight year while they mutate? Joking aside, there are lot of chapters who are traditionally secretive, or rely on their recruitment/initiation-process to keep the chapter spirit alive. Maybe some chapters still need to find out if their own flavor of genetic deficiency affects the Primaris in any form. For many chapters, this whole development is still pretty new, so there could still be a lot of questions and growing pains.

 

But the other explanation goes toward gear and tactical doctrine, and this is what GW's answer was about. It boils down to: "we make the small guys so they don't bump their heads when driving Rhinos". The more I think about it, the sillier it sounds, but in all fairness, its a pretty transparent attempt to give a lore-sounding answer to what is really a tabletop-issue. I think Boldthread did an outstanding job of explaining why most gear should reasonably be retrofitted, and why its simply moronic to assume that a Primaris couldn't hold a Melta or understand the elaborate stratagem of shooting their rifles a bit harder.

 

But I feel he discounted that ultimately, some equipment is still pretty scarce in the grim future. Yes, the Repulsor is a superior vehicle - but I will probably not have enough of them. Marines are an elite force, but they still have limited resources, otherwise they would all be riding Land Raiders. So with that in mind, I'd argue that there are a couple of pieces of equipment which could be problematic to either replicate or retrofit, and which are so important to a chapter that they need people to operate them. They could make a conscious decision to train new oldmarines for that purpose:

 

- Jump Packs: They are complicated tech by marine-standards, and they have pretty clear limitations. Adding a substantial amount of weight could make them a lot less reliable or even usable. There is Primaris jump-tech, but it doesn't seem to be as versatile or mobile - otherwise Reivers wouldn't need goddamn grappling hooks, and Inceptors wouldn't be as bulky.

 

- Land Speeders: Weight shouldn't be an issue here, but you could make a point at least for somewhat isolated chapters that everything anti-grav is too complicated to even modify, and the damn things look pretty cramped as they are. I would wager you couldn't fit a Primaris-model in a current speeder-seat (conversely, I think humankind should really have mastered the art of making like, bigger motorcycles, by now, even for Primaris-marines...)

 

- Terminator Armour: Now yes, even if I don't have enough Mk10 for all my guys, I should still be able to give them proper power-armor even if they are a bit taller. But same as with Land Speeders, that could not work for the relic-armor I have lying around. There is a reason these things are revered, and it's not because you can get them from Amazon with free shipping. I feel there is a point to be made that modifying Terminator Armour could be either impossible or impractical, plus there would probably some debate about cutting open ancient relics.

 

- Dreadnoughts: This is more of a reach, since size isn't an issue here (I mean I'm sorry Brother Selfsacrificius, I know you're a great hero, but you're almost dead anyway, so mind if we chop off another arm or so to cram you in there?), but these are also ancient machines. Maybe they don't get along well with the new guys. Machine Spirits could be attuned to the specific genetic brand of an individual chapter, not the refreshed version.

 

- Transports: I've never been in one, but it was my impression that military transports are not known for their luxurious space. Now yes, the idea that they can't enter them is a silly rule-issue, but reasonably, you couldn't fit ten Primaris in a Rhino. Maybe somewhere between 6 to 8. The same holds true for all other classic forms of transport. This doesn't mean I breed oldmarines just so they're more comfortable riding transports, but if my chapter relies heavily on a form of mechanized assault (be it Drop Pods, Rhinos or whatnot), reducing the manpower I can bring in that assault by 30% could really hurt my strategy. Chapters could be choosing to create classical marines for the same reason that we pick them in the game: If I can get more of them where they need to be faster and more reliably, they could simply be the superior choice for that situation.

 

These are just the ones I could come up with right now. Yes, the explanations may feel a bit forced, and ultimately I still agree: If your single most important resource is the life your VERY LIMITED number of men, you would probably go to great lengths to have these said men be the very best they can be. But chapters have other resources as well, and could be slow in changing their ways.

[Captain Idaho]

We don't know how long it takes a Chapter to breed Primaris. We know Cawl has a supply and that's why Chapters are requesting resupply from him.

 

Consider harvesting geneseed to be an imperfect process - you need a brother to die first. And there are plenty of toxic and corrupting ways to die.

 

***

 

Ultimately I'm afraid my advice is going to have to be just to accept GW played this one loose. They likely never realised just how intractable people would be to ditching their old Marines and as such have made an effort to confirm Chapters still produce them, fudging it into the background.

 

It's my hope GW actually continues the line but I fear this is a business strategy from executives who have already made their decision.

 

And with each new Primaris release I lose a little more interest in 40K.

[Xisor]

God damn it, now I'm thinking about Marines in terms of logistics and "Lean business processes".

 

Introducing Primaris Techmarines Toyota & Ford!

 

ADB and a few folk have commented that Primaris are Space Marines, and that to Marines it's all gravy.

 

That is: the measurable differences might not actually be all that.

 

E.g. What if the extra wound/attack of the Primaris was not representative of a biological change, but of a part of the updated hypnoindocrtrination regime applied to Primaris battlefield roles, but that hadn't been merged with the existing software code bases for the "regular" battlefield roles.

 

That is: it is a result of psychological conditioning that hasn't been rolled out across the board, yet.

 

In a future Codex: Space Marines, the distinction between Primaris and other might not exist, because these legacy markers may have mixed and homogenised over time.

 

So you'd have Tactical Squads who incorporated oldies without the three new Cawl organs, yoofs who've got the complete set, but both who have a mix of MkX and earlier armour patterns, as well as all varieties of Cawl and older boltguns.

 

In short: they'll be renormalised.

 

The boxes might work nicely, even. Release a new MkX sprue that allows for:

1- a variety of special weapons

2- a more interesting Sergeant

3- a small variety of heavy weapons

4- Primaris-scale older armour components

 

Then your down the line Intercessor Box could have 5 current intercessors, and a sprue of the above, allowing for a "Primaris Tactical" squad, but which is just really a tweak on the current idea of Intercessors and only means a small update to their data sheet, but also means that the Tactical and Intercessor data sheets can be merged.

 

Suddenly, a tactical squad now has a 2W profile. Or it's renormalised so that in the next edition Primaris have 1W, but the whole thing means old Tactical Marines are just "old models" from before the new paradigm, but count as/are represented just fine and without issue.

 

E.g. We only have a discrepancy now because this is a mid-stage.

 

Would be neat, and would scratch and itch, it also kit really invalidate Intercessors either. (And fusing Intercessors/Tacticals makes things simpler for balance/Codex length purposes too!)

 

That way, one day, when 'true scale' armour marks are released in other kits, as well as new MkX+ armours, then Primaris and Space Marines will be indistinguishable. And it can be attributed to growing pains/interrim steps, rather than "old Marines were replaced" - or are we really believing that a Primaris Marine couldn't, in any circumstances, be fielded in MkV armour with an Umbra pattern boltgun?

 

;)

 

I'm sure others have said, but it's an engaging stance: were Imperial Fists "replaced" by Old Marines when they regained their lost organ? Spitting acid is a notable weakness over all other Marines, but it wasn't exactly present on the IF profiles down the years. (Deathwatch/Inquisitor excluded, of course!)

 

I can appreciate the psychological nuance afoot, but it does feel a touch like I've found the "angle" that for me makes the Primaris vs Old paradigm seem like a moot concern. (Depends how GW proceeds in lore and release specifics, but I'd recommend they follow this one and make cool new models to boot.)

[Panzer]

God damn it, now I'm thinking about Marines in terms of logistics and "Lean business processes".

 

Introducing Primaris Techmarines Toyota & Ford!

 

ADB and a few folk have commented that Primaris are Space Marines, and that to Marines it's all gravy.

 

That is: the measurable differences might not actually be all that.

 

E.g. What if the extra wound/attack of the Primaris was not representative of a biological change, but of a part of the updated hypnoindocrtrination regime applied to Primaris battlefield roles, but that hadn't been merged with the existing software code bases for the "regular" battlefield roles.

 

That is: it is a result of psychological conditioning that hasn't been rolled out across the board, yet.

 

In a future Codex: Space Marines, the distinction between Primaris and other might not exist, because these legacy markers may have mixed and homogenised over time.

 

So you'd have Tactical Squads who incorporated oldies without the three new Cawl organs, yoofs who've got the complete set, but both who have a mix of MkX and earlier armour patterns, as well as all varieties of Cawl and older boltguns.

 

In short: they'll be renormalised.

 

The boxes might work nicely, even. Release a new MkX sprue that allows for:

1- a variety of special weapons

2- a more interesting Sergeant

3- a small variety of heavy weapons

4- Primaris-scale older armour components

 

Then your down the line Intercessor Box could have 5 current intercessors, and a sprue of the above, allowing for a "Primaris Tactical" squad, but which is just really a tweak on the current idea of Intercessors and only means a small update to their data sheet, but also means that the Tactical and Intercessor data sheets can be merged.

 

Suddenly, a tactical squad now has a 2W profile. Or it's renormalised so that in the next edition Primaris have 1W, but the whole thing means old Tactical Marines are just "old models" from before the new paradigm, but count as/are represented just fine and without issue.

 

E.g. We only have a discrepancy now because this is a mid-stage.

 

Would be neat, and would scratch and itch, it also kit really invalidate Intercessors either. (And fusing Intercessors/Tacticals makes things simpler for balance/Codex length purposes too!)

 

That way, one day, when 'true scale' armour marks are released in other kits, as well as new MkX+ armours, then Primaris and Space Marines will be indistinguishable. And it can be attributed to growing pains/interrim steps, rather than "old Marines were replaced" - or are we really believing that a Primaris Marine couldn't, in any circumstances, be fielded in MkV armour with an Umbra pattern boltgun?

 

 

That makes no sense. It implies that the actual changes to Marines Cawl has worked on for the past 10k years are actually pointless since it's all about the hypnoindocrtrination. Also it's fact that Primaris are more durable and stronger based on their physiology. There's no room to speculate it might be something else.

 

No doubt that Primaris will get normalized over time but differently than you think. They already are writing fluff that Primaris slowly take over positions originally inhibited by old Marines when the casualties are high enough so that there aren't enough capable old Marines left to fill those positions again.

old Marines will eventually enter the state of a legacy army with some rudimentary rules so people can still play with them but the actual Marine Codex will be with Primaris. It's a gradual process to not scare people away like they did with AoS and it will take some time but I've no doubt that's how it's going to happen.

[Captain Idaho]

You know, Marines have been defeating in combat and killing creatures larger and stronger than themselves for 10,000 years. Wargear makes things more equal. Skill is the deciding factor.

 

Calgar is likely not intimidated by Primaris Marines in close combat at all. Dante and Logan Grimnar? Likely they think it's cute that those big soldiers are throwing their weight around.

 

***

 

Yes I agree with the above. Classic Marines are done for. Why I don't know since the business decision isn't clear. I considered for a time it was because they [Primaris] are copyright friendly but then if I make 3rd party products I'll just call them Space Marines Large Knights or something and you could still buy it without trouble.

[Xisor]

That makes no sense. It implies that the actual changes to Marines Cawl has worked on for the past 10k years are actually pointless since it's all about the hypnoindocrtrination. Also it's fact that Primaris are more durable and stronger based on their physiology. There's no room to speculate it might be something else.

 

 

There's an abundance of room to speculate. Received wisdom, popular conception, even the letter of the lore (I like that phrase!) is mutable through time.

 

Not from a relativist position, but on a practical point that reworking, changes of focus/emphasis, and outright retcons happen much more often than we'd like to believe.

 

To that extent, an absolutist standpoint isn't as defensible as it logically seems.

 

Just ask an Imperial Fist and their acid spit!

 

Now, obviously that case is handled relatively elegantly and can be smoothed with careful attention to detail, but it takes no effort for someone (a renegade/traitor maverick Chief Apothecary, say, with a vested interest in being correct and advancing the frontiers of knowledge) to actually study and substantiate the matter. (Although such a thing might utterly rubbish my stance, above - I'd be happy with that take. Accordingly, I'm curious to see what, if anything, is hinted at along those lines in Blood of Iax.)

 

I digress. An unstated point in my thinking is Chris Wraight's revisionist/extensionist approach to the received wisdom, and how it is handled *within* the setting, by the people in a position to know and check the explicit details, as was done in "Battle for the Fang". It was a minor, but absolutely exhilarating sub plot for my tastes.

 

That is: the reason for Space Wolves only being "stable" for Fenris (and to an extent: Terra) might have had a very practical outlook.

 

Similarly, the stated and marketed effects of the new Primaris organs may be more akin to... kinesiotape (or similar athletic trends) rather than genuine genetic bio-engineering. Or more low-key - an organ that allows for brief exertions, but leads to logistical nightmares in feeding Space Marines who's dietary and nutrional requirements are exponentially affected by "small" gains in power.

 

But that's speculative and unnecessary, where I think Cawl's genius can be better emphasised (again, taking the Ford/Toyota/Dev of Baal focus), it's not that they are 'Mano a mano' better than normal Marines, but statistically and logistically better.

 

E.g. Plenty of odd factors can be expanded on or clarified:

- more efficient metabolic processes (less food, chemotherapy needed, long term)

- less biological complications arising from stuff normal Marines could do anyway (E.g. You can punch through walls, but you break your hand. Now you can do it without breaking your hand.) whatever.

- "lesser" candidates can be turned into Marines via the Primaris processes.

 

That is: the Primaris "process" is harder/better/faster/stronger (including hypnoindocrtrination etc), rather than the specific Marine at the end.

 

If you apply the "lessons learned" by Cawl from that process to the creation of normal Marines (not trivial, if you're at all familiar with large organisations/teams being told to change their processes/way of working to a more efficient method).

 

Like, if Cawl's lesson learned was that you get better Marines if you don't brutalise them as children/adolescents, just apply the damn hypnotherapy and surgeries. None of the daft mind games.

 

Again, I digress. There's a lot of stuff there that could smooth the divide and, once the model lines move along and current 'old Marine' kits look foolish compared to 'true scale' kits (slightly shorter than Primaris, say - but even that is a daft decision for kitbashing ability) that might one day appear, then this sort of thing would totally be viable.

 

And if you don't think true scale old Marines would be popular, I imagine that would be true if Heresy Marks of armour hadn't also been popular.

 

There's a market for cool new NEW stuff, and cool new "historical" stuff. And thats what I'm thinking ahead to - Lore that smoothly means you can release new 'old Marine' kits one day without backtracking, and without immediately invalidating Old Marines at any step along the way.

 

(Currently, there's not much of a way around it. The early post in this thread about all hands on deck said it well: Old Marines in setting will be produced, but will also be second-tier, but making do. I'm not sure that aspersions is *neceesary*.)

 

No doubt that Primaris will get normalized over time but differently than you think. They already are writing fluff that Primaris slowly take over positions originally inhibited by old Marines when the casualties are high enough so that there aren't enough capable old Marines left to fill those positions again.

 

I'd be a terrible prognosticactor, but of possible futures, looking at which is *best* (or better, for given values), and which is *likely* are different activities entirely, and use fairly distinct skillets.

 

 

old Marines will eventually enter the state of a legacy army with some rudimentary rules so people can still play with them but the actual Marine Codex will be with Primaris. It's a gradual process to not scare people away like they did with AoS and it will take some time but I've no doubt that's how it's going to happen.

But that very notion does scare folk away.

 

For one, AoS has massively backtracked already, and Primaris are an example of a work in progress, not the second stamp of the template that is to be used for eternity. (Or perhaps those Warhammer Chronicles omnibuses were a hallucination.)

 

To whit: I'm happily convinced that old & Primaris will be fused, in some fashion, rather than legacied and eventually set aside entirely.

 

Why?

 

Because there's a market for 'a bit more of that old stuff that fell by the wayside'.

 

Backgrounding, for a while (decades, perhaps), rather than being wholly mothballed.

 

Looking back at this fairly obvious compromise, it's a sort of double whammy that the only bit of Warhammer's fantasy worlds that are being sidelined are the End Times themselves.

 

'Remember that time we killed all your favourites!' has a bit of a less appealingly marketable edge to it over 'Remember those favourites you used to love!'.

 

And it's that convergence I think they'd do will to quickly align. So that the distinction between Primaris and Old isn't a stark question of quality or judgement, but of 'something for everyone!', but that also accommodates a revolving/conveyor belt of new/old models.

 

So Primaris will be the way forward. But it'll be Primaris where there's Primaris with MkVII armour components, and lots of possibilities.

 

In short: the resolutions should expand possibilities, it close them down.

 

Restricting HH models to only HH settings would be foolish, as it necessarily restricts sales, and isn't "necessary" to the setting.

 

And reinforcing Primaris vs Old, rather than 'the distinction between Primaris and Old isn't what you think (or even what we said a year ago)', will be another knock for a section of the market.

 

Reinforcing it to begin with can be marketing, but expanding the nuance of that, rather than keeping it unsubtle, won't stand the test of time.

 

But more than anything, I'm reminded I've not read any of the last half year's material on the topic at source (again: Blood of Iax), but that subtlety is exciting.

 

Going the routes I suggest means Primaris and Old should one day be easily interchangeable - without appeal to detail - so that the question isn't "are those Tacticals or Intercessors?" but "neat, I've not seen those Space Marine models in a long time, how long have you had them?".

 

But for that to happen, the 'latest Old Marine' kits have to have a bit more time, and new other kits have to come along.

 

Accounting for the visual discrepancy is sort of necessary (arguably, at least), but reinforcing the lore, adding the details you mention, seem to make it more questionable and uneven (to my mind), than smooth and focused on buying more models/playing more games/reading more stories.

 

(For example, having AoS be born of Old One portals to other realms in the midst of Archaons' onslaught [a la "Giantslayer"], rather than killing off the Warhammer World wholesale, would have been more in line with "everything for everyone, and more!"... but that was GW in its fiery rebirth, rather than in its more enlightened form as we currently know it.)

 

It's damn fun (for me, at least!) to speculate on what angles to focus on and make it all fit pleasingly rather than... discordantly.

[Captain Idaho]

You're dreaming if you think they'll make Primaris in MK7. GW have demonstrated (can't spell demonstrate with demon) already how ruthless they can be with change by destroying an entire game. Executive strategy is not sentimental.

[Xisor]

I have not made myself clear to you then - I'm saying that there's money to be made in sentimentality, not advocating any old idealism for the heck of it.

 

Cases in point:

- Necromunda

- Genestealer cults

- Tastefully tongue in cheek orks

- Knights

- Adeptus Titanicus

 

Or did all that not happen?

[Captain Idaho]

Ah well perhaps it would have been clearer if you made it more concise because, well we all got jobs man.

 

Doesn't mean I agree with you. I don't. (About MK7 at least. I don't think sentiment is a factor in Primaris at all)

[Quixus]

Absolutely. Thematically it does make a bit of sense right now as wargear shortages and existing armouries will indeed play a part in the decision, in universe at least.

Oh come on it cannot be so difficult to enlarge the pistol grips and widen the trigger guards on plasma guns or all the other old marine weapons. They got combi weapons for PA and TDA, so a little size adjustment cannot be too hard.  Now you could easily have 2W tactical marines. Just going from the lore marines have quite a diversity in size as well so making MK 6-8 armour in the right size for primaris shouldn't be to difficult either. let me guess they used different plugs for the MkX .

[Spaced Hulk]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Gene Seed is harvested from the Progenoid glands of each individual Space Marine. The contents of the Progenoid is used to cultivate the implants and organs for the next generation of Space Marines.

 

So logically, the Progenoids of 'oldmarines' will create more oldmarines, while the Progenoids of Primaris will create more Primaris.

 

So surely the reason that Chapters are still producing the original type of Space Marine is because a large proportion of their genetic material (their gene seed reserves) will only produce the implants for original marines. Unless Cawl also gave each Chapter upto a thousand jars of Primaris Progenoids to completely upgrade their Astartes production. Which seems unlikely to be honest, considering he's also creating whole new Primaris Chapters as well. If he had that much genetic material available, surely there would be so many Primaris marines running around that all the Imperium's problems would be solved.

 

Of course, in time, the Primaris gene seed will probably become the dominant, if not exclusive type of genetic material used, because obviously it is superior and more stable. However, at the moment, there's still plenty of original gene seed still in use and waiting to be used.

 

It's a bit like Windows, in my mind. Just because Microsoft releases a new version, it doesn't mean that earlier systems cease to exist, or that everyone stops using them.

 

Personally, I'm still using Windows 7.

 

But I love building and painting Primaris marines.

[Robbienw]

I really don’t think Primaris fitting into normal armour is a realistic possibility. Existing normal armour that is. You would need to extensively re-model every part of the suit except for helmets and hand armour, to the point where you have rebuilt it so much it is almost all new components anyway.

 

Making a couple of custom bigger suits for your 1 or 2 overly large marines a chapter has, like pasanius and pollux, is one thing. Doing it for 200 or so Primaris Marines in your chapter is another prospect entirely.

 

There is a too big a size difference between Primaris and standard, and not just height but also width, Primaris are a lot chunkier. Even if you compare them to the most recent standard marine models (Japan heroes and deathwatch kill team) who are 2-3mm taller than other standard ones.

 

Same thing for a lot of standard vehicles. Yeah, you could probably squeeze some in the transport compartment of a rhino or a land raider. But you aren’t going to get them into the cockpits and control areas of the smaller flyers and vehicles.

[Robbienw]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Gene Seed is harvested from the Progenoid glands of each individual Space Marine. The contents of the Progenoid is used to cultivate the implants and organs for the next generation of Space Marines.

 

So logically, the Progenoids of 'oldmarines' will create more oldmarines, while the Progenoids of Primaris will create more Primaris.

 

So surely the reason that Chapters are still producing the original type of Space Marine is because a large proportion of their genetic material (their gene seed reserves) will only produce the implants for original marines. Unless Cawl also gave each Chapter upto a thousand jars of Primaris Progenoids to completely upgrade their Astartes production. Which seems unlikely to be honest, considering he's also creating whole new Primaris Chapters as well. If he had that much genetic material available, surely there would be so many Primaris marines running around that all the Imperium's problems would be solved.

 

Of course, in time, the Primaris gene seed will probably become the dominant, if not exclusive type of genetic material used, because obviously it is superior and more stable. However, at the moment, there's still plenty of original gene seed still in use and waiting to be used.

 

It's a bit like Windows, in my mind. Just because Microsoft releases a new version, it doesn't mean that earlier systems cease to exist, or that everyone stops using them.

 

Personally, I'm still using Windows 7.

 

But I love building and painting Primaris marines.

Yes that is right, they have new gene seed to set off the new organs. It’s highly likely that there is not enough primaris geneseed produced to even come close to replacing 1 million standard marines at this point.

 

Particularly as some geneseed will be lost in combat, so newly produced geneseed won’t just go towards increasing numbers, some will be needed to just keep numbers up.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

1. I think alot of marine chapter would continue making legacy marines at the very least to pilot their warmachines, I could also see Primaris marines size being an issue. They may be to big to fight effectively in some settings, or as the rules back up fit into alot of vehicles. Marines aren't just going to rid of their thunderhawks.

 

Its also really early lorewise, its possible that Primaris will age faster, they also may have several hidden flaws that the fluff hasn't brought up yet. So why stop making the marines that you know what to expect from until they've got a track record to prove it (a 100 years is a drop in the bucket for 40k.

 

2. From a business stand point I think GW was running into issues creating new legacy units. With all the options to kit bash its really difficult to come up with new units that people want, and that they couldn't make themselves. 

 

With Primaris they have a blank slate, when they release a captain with better options it will sell. Same with whatever other options they come up with. But GW won't get rid of legacy marines as long as they sell, and none of the primaris units are the best choices in their respective slots (I would go so far as to say that they have exactly one competitive unit in hellblasters). So I don't think it will be anytime soon.

[Xisor]

Ah well perhaps it would have been clearer if you made it more concise because, well we all got jobs man.

A concise person is not me, alas. Concise 40k?

 

That'd just be Warham 40: Chaos is inevitable; any other detail superfluous

 

Doesn't mean I agree with you. I don't. (About MK7 at least. I don't think sentiment is a factor in Primaris at all)

Yes, when the designers explicitly mentioned in devising the MkX look that they wanted to evoke the idea of older marks of armour (MkIV got a frequent mention), that would be nothing to do with tying visually to the past, or reinforcing the look to prey upon sentimentality between something old and something new.

 

Despite that that's more or less exactly what they say! Definitely not a deliberate reference hinging in part on people's fondness for things gone by.

[Captain Idaho]

But that's the extent of their sentiment. They think putting some elements from older marks of armour, which most will miss, is all they need to do to be sentimental.

 

I'll bet you 20p that we won't see a MK7 Primaris. Ever.

[Boldthreat]

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. Gene Seed is harvested from the Progenoid glands of each individual Space Marine. The contents of the Progenoid is used to cultivate the implants and organs for the next generation of Space Marines.

 

So logically, the Progenoids of 'oldmarines' will create more oldmarines, while the Progenoids of Primaris will create more Primaris.

 

So surely the reason that Chapters are still producing the original type of Space Marine is because a large proportion of their genetic material (their gene seed reserves) will only produce the implants for original marines. Unless Cawl also gave each Chapter upto a thousand jars of Primaris Progenoids to completely upgrade their Astartes production. Which seems unlikely to be honest, considering he's also creating whole new Primaris Chapters as well. If he had that much genetic material available, surely there would be so many Primaris marines running around that all the Imperium's problems would be solved.

 

Of course, in time, the Primaris gene seed will probably become the dominant, if not exclusive type of genetic material used, because obviously it is superior and more stable. However, at the moment, there's still plenty of original gene seed still in use and waiting to be used.

 

It's a bit like Windows, in my mind. Just because Microsoft releases a new version, it doesn't mean that earlier systems cease to exist, or that everyone stops using them.

 

Personally, I'm still using Windows 7.

 

But I love building and painting Primaris marines.

Yes that is right, they have new gene seed to set off the new organs. It’s highly likely that there is not enough primaris geneseed produced to even come close to replacing 1 million standard marines at this point.

 

Particularly as some geneseed will be lost in combat, so newly produced geneseed won’t just go towards increasing numbers, some will be needed to just keep numbers up.

 

 

But I find that hard to believe as well.  Mainly because we know that it takes 50 years for the Adeptus Mechanicus to generate 1000 sets of genetic material for the creation of one Chapter.  Cawl had 10,000 years to do this.  I would argue that he not only had the time for the creation of new Primaris only Chapters.  He also had enough time to cultivate enough geneseed to requip every existing Chapter and them some.  He also has enough time to produce the equipment for everyone.  Its smacks of hand-wavery... I know... but that is what happened.  We know that part of the objective of the Indomitus Crusade was to reinforce every space marine chapter possible.  Not only did they get their own batch of active Primaris... they would get a complete set of Primaris genetic material to begin their own production as well as the equipment to move forward with that transition.

 

Dark Imperium confirms this.  It flat out states that not only did all Chapters have the updated Geneseed, all of their Geneseed produces the 3 additional organs.  

 

The only way to produce the older type of space marine is to either use the older, depreciated geneseed... or to use the new geneseed and not implant the three primaris organs.  

 

Its already been established as fact that all Space Marine Chapters have been updated... just that 6 percent of them have refused the Primaris Paradigm.  So 60 Chapters of the 1000 or so that are active across the Galaxy.  Are we really going to believe that Guilliman had a goal to reinforce and upgrade the beleaguered Space Marines of the Imperium to only show up and say here is one set of organs good luck...?  No way.  

 

More to come.  I want to respond to the other stuff coming up in this thread too.  What an interesting conversation here.  But I have to go house shopping with Mrs Boldthreat... ugh doesn't she know that important arguments are taking place on the internet!!!!!  The Galaxy is at stake!  Be back guys.  Love what I am reading all.  I love topics that force us to debate and discover and sharpen our own positions.  Be back asap!

[Xisor]

But that's the extent of their sentiment. They think putting some elements from older marks of armour, which most will miss, is all they need to do to be sentimental.

 

I'll bet you 20p that we won't see a MK7 Primaris. Ever.

I'll take that bet.

 

As said, I'm not in it for prognostication - there's too many possibilities, only a handful of specific varieties will actually transpire.

 

But something *like* MkVII Primaris - e.g. True Scale Mk VII, blurring of the lines of "what counts as Primaris anyway" - all of that could potentially fit what I'm advocating.

 

----

 

RE: Geneseed and "the process" - we know (from "Devastation of Baal" at least) tha some benefits of Primaris are:

1- easier to make

2- don't need "high grade rare quality" raw materials in the form of mortal fuel. It might be slightly overstating it, but for Primaris any old kid will do. (E.g. If you can select 1000 eligible potentials to become Space Marines, and only one survives the process typically, with the Primaris process, you get a much higher yield for what you input!)

 

That alone is worth 10,000 years of Cawl's efforts.

 

Fancy guns and armour aren't so important (one might argue), when you can support a much higher turnover of Marines.

 

Nowawadays every Chapter can be the Imperial Fists, but with four more organs!

 

But it's difficult to be excited about logistics.

[Robbienw]

It’s not that the 6 percent have refused.

 

It’s highly unlikely any chapter would refuse, given that the Emiratus custodes and gulliman himself have been the ones dishing out the info and free marines.

 

It’s just these chapters haven’t received the information (or free primaris) yet. Possibly because they are out of contact, or are an area of the galaxy that is hard to reach, or are hard to get to because they are besieged by enemies of the imperium, stuff like that.

 

There is no fluff or other evidence of any chapter refusing, I think it would be a major thing if one did.

 

As for the numbers, If cawl had enough geneseed and equipment to replace 1 million standard marines you would have thought the indomitus crusade would have kicked off with that many!

 

Perhaps he does have millions of Primaris geneseed ready though and it’s purely shortage of new equipment that has kept marine chapters making standard marines, I was just speculating on the numbers based on what is said in dark imperium.

[Xisor]

It’s not that the 6 percent have refused.

 

It’s highly unlikely any chapter would refuse, given that the Emiratus custodes and gulliman himself have been the ones dishing out the info and free marines.

 

There's no such thing as a free lunch, so they say.

 

Which is to say: if a Chapter was successful prior to Guilliman's return, they may be in a position to refuse the 'strings attached' to the political issues inherent in bowing to what might be a treachery on the part of Terra, a Xenos conspiracy, an agent of Chaos or some other particular.

 

The Iron Hands are all sorts of paranoid recluse - any Chapter along those lines might have motivation to go off piste.

 

Indeed, some wayward Chapters might be emboldened in their independence: improvements were possible, the Chapters must have been wrong to "obey" for 10k years when such opportunities were feasible. Now the gloves come off, they can make their own Super Space Marines. With blackjack...

 

It’s just these chapters haven’t received the information (or free primaris) yet. Possibly because they are out of contact, or are an area of the galaxy that is hard to reach, or are hard to get to because they are besieged by enemies of the imperium, stuff like that.

 

There is no fluff or other evidence of any chapter refusing, I think it would be a major thing if one did.

 

As for the numbers, If cawl had enough geneseed and equipment to replace 1 million standard marines you would have thought the indomitus crusade would have kicked off with that many!

 

Perhaps he does have millions of Primaris geneseed ready though and it’s purely shortage of new equipment that has kept marine chapters making standard marines, I was just speculating on the numbers based on what is said in dark imperium.

Yeah, that's sensible also.

 

But I can imagine that not everyone accepts it. Simply because Space Marines cooperating trouble free isn't the common story. That's rare.

 

We'll get there though. When the IC is returned to in detail, when odd nuggets are expanded or fixated on by some author or future Games Dev/lore writer.

 

It just hasn't been specified.

 

But no way has every Chapter been reached. And no way has compliance been achieved in all of them.

 

Herding cats.

 

Even if Guilliman went round them all personally, Marines have usually been a bit... willful and fractious!

 

I could see 6% being a good call, for a variety of reasons.

[Robbienw]

Yeah, there are likey some chapters that have serious problems accepting it.

 

Maybe a few that havent had the info yet actually know what is going on but are deliberately staying out of reach.

 

Could also be chapters who have grudgingly accepted the Primaris but are then using them as an auxiliary force kept at arms length from the rest of the chapter.

 

Could even be some others who are sceptical, but have taken them on to use for their own ends. Like the Dark Angels using them as cannon fodder, and then taking a few into inner circle confidence for the purpose of using their acces to Martian and Ultramarine info for any hints on the fallen/what gulliman is really up to.

[Kinstryfe]

Humans are creatures of habit and not necessarily bound by reason. Tobacco use has been known for ages to cause all sorts of problems, but it's still a multi billion dollar industry because people still use it despite the risks being on every package. Astartes have been doing things a certain way for ten millennia, and they have long memories. Any apothecary who decided geneseed could be improved would have been considered heretical. Even newly discovered STCs sometimes go thru hundreds of years of vetting before being considered legitimate. From an in universe perspective, the entire Primaris project would be highly heretical if not for the involvement of a (and currently the only) Primarch. So you have ten millennia of highly, near religiously indoctrinated reverence for a system which is suddenly changed out of the blue. That's exactly why most chapters would keep making Astartes the traditional way. Sure the Primaris may be bigger, stronger, and tougher, but they're new. Even a couple hundred years is nothing in the timespan of the Imperium.

 

So, you keep making the classic product alongside the new. There's a reason they keep making cellphones for a generation or so once a new model comes out. Most of the time there's no problem, but just in case the Primaris are the Note 7 of Astartes, it'll be good to have some Galaxy S7s around when they start randomly blowing up.

 

*Addendum* There's also a tendency in 40k circles, probably due to the fact that so much of 40k lore has been backward gazing, to overlook that Primaris are an ongoing narrative. If I were a betting man I would wager that we're going to see a repeat of the great crusade. 17 Astartes Legions were fully stable until they were united with their Primarchs and, perhaps more importantly, with the populations of new worlds. Populations who were greatly separated from Terran humans by all sorts of genetic tweaks letting them survive and thrive in their journeys to new worlds. Just like how some Legions were perfectly stable, I imagine that introducing new stock to the Primaris project may eventually yield some interesting results, just like how occasionally successor chapters can get weird down the line. That will probably be their Note 7 moment, and when chapters are glad to have some classic Marines in their ranks.

[Sky Potato]

There is no fluff or other evidence of any chapter refusing, I think it would be a major thing if one did.

 

Gabriel Seth Of The Flesh Tearers was HIGHLY suspicious of Guillimans intentions with the Primaris at the end of Devastation Of Baal.

 

He saw them as going against the Emperors creation of the Astartes - and was also pretty suspicious of Guillimans intentions as Regent as well.