Chapters still making standard Space Marines

[Ishagu]

There's something that should be mentioned.

 

Primaris Marines don't have the same mutation or failure rate as regular, degraded geneseed.

 

Really, in desperate times, you can't afford to risk making the normal variant.

[Robbienw]

Not all regular geneseed is degraded. Only certain chapters and lineages have geneseed problems.

[Xisor]

There's something that should be mentioned.

 

Primaris Marines don't have the same mutation or failure rate as regular, degraded geneseed.

 

Really, in desperate times, you can't afford to risk making the normal variant.

It's not simple to say whether that's due to the Primaris creation process, or the geneseed. (And even if it has been stated, lots of stuff gets stated and discarded, so don't come at me with your correct quotations and verified references! [i am, of course interested, but I doubt it's damning/thought-terminating.])

 

Of course, I imagine it's a little bit of both, but I don't think it leads to the conclusion that you can't afford the risk.

 

In desperate times, you can't afford not to take the risk. (Entirely debatable.)

 

----

 

But the analysis hinges on the specific details. I can imagine a degree of efficiency in some sort of 80:20 split of new:old recruits. Not only to maximise turnaround, but also a degree of prudence - in-universe, who has the time to verify Cawl's claims? Or to 100% trust Cawl and Guilliman?

 

Prudence, I think, advocates hedging one's bets and spreading the risk, rather than going all-in on one newfangled gimmick.

 

----

 

But even then, in the absence of better clarity, it's always going to be debatable.

 

I'd like to see those debates explored in the lore. ExpLOREd, if you will.

[Ishagu]

Not all regular geneseed is degraded. Only certain chapters and lineages have geneseed problems.

But the Primaris variants don't suffer the problem. 9 out of 10 Salamanders aspirants end in failure and death. It's high for others as well. Why would you waste the resources?

[Captain Idaho]

Can you define why 9 out of 10 aspirants end up dead? That is the crux of it.

[Boldthreat]

Wait, hasn't it been confirmed that geneseed officially degrades each generation? The traditional stock of any Chapter is going to be thousands of years old.

 

Even the Cawl Inferior states that the new geneseed degrades roughly .001 percent (I'm going off memory... Fact check me) per generation. This is official.

 

Our heroes we're indeed thin bloods. Thank the Emperor for Cawl and Guilliman... Praise be his name.

 

Even Ultramarine geneseed has degraded over time, even though it's considered the purest and had the complete set of functioning organs.

 

This is huge. Not only does the geneseed restore what was lost over time to all genelines... It makes a better marine... and it makes him more reliably...

 

Guys this is a no brainer for any Chapter.

 

Now if Cawl would just admit that Mk 7 helmets looked better than Mk 4... And both are Inferior to Mk 6 we would have all been happier ;)

[Quixus]

Can you define why 9 out of 10 aspirants end up dead? That is the crux of it.

Can you define why 9 out of 10 primaris aspirants (from a bigger base) do not end up dead? The reason is irrelevant in the short term. Primaris marines have a better return on investment, so logistically it makes little sense to still produce old marines. On the other hand as checks and balances to prevent the new marines from turning a token force would not be enough.

 

Wait, hasn't it been confirmed that geneseed officially degrades each generation? The traditional stock of any Chapter is going to be thousands of years old.

 

Even the Cawl Inferior states that the new geneseed degrades roughly .001 percent (I'm going off memory... Fact check me) per generation. This is official.

 

Our heroes we're indeed thin bloods. Thank the Emperor for Cawl and Guilliman... Praise be his name.

 

Even Ultramarine geneseed has degraded over time, even though it's considered the purest and had the complete set of functioning organs.

 

This is huge. Not only does the geneseed restore what was lost over time to all genelines... It makes a better marine... and it makes him more reliably...

 

Guys this is a no brainer for any Chapter.

 

Now if Cawl would just admit that Mk 7 helmets looked better than Mk 4... And both are Inferior to Mk 6 we would have all been happier

Is the degradation caused by making copies of copies or does the geneseed degrade through outside influence? AFAIK Neither has been confirmed. So the better results might just be due to Cawl raiding the stores on terra, or it might be because he knows more about the new cultivation/implantation process, documents it better and makes fewer mistakes. Some research into the original process might yield similar results. IIRC before the Heresy they were much better at making marines.

[Tyberos the Red Wake]

 

There is no fluff or other evidence of any chapter refusing, I think it would be a major thing if one did.

Gabriel Seth Of The Flesh Tearers was HIGHLY suspicious of Guillimans intentions with the Primaris at the end of Devastation Of Baal.

 

He saw them as going against the Emperors creation of the Astartes - and was also pretty suspicious of Guillimans intentions as Regent as well.

 

 

Grumpriel Seth is always like that. Remember that time he was like "Screw you, Blood Angels, we should just retire your entire damn chapter instead of rescuing it"? If he's like that with his own founders, of course he wouldn't welcome outsiders warmly. He'd probably punch Sanguinius in the face for dying and causing the Black Rage if he ever met him.

[Robbienw]

 

Not all regular geneseed is degraded. Only certain chapters and lineages have geneseed problems.

But the Primaris variants don't suffer the problem. 9 out of 10 Salamanders aspirants end in failure and death. It's high for others as well. Why would you waste the resources?

Don’t suffer what problem? That’s a bit vague. There’s a handful of chapters that suffer geneseed problems of varying types.

 

Marine chapters have always burned through loads of aspirants to make new marines though. It’s because the requirements to make a standard marine are tough and the training is lethal, not just because of geneseed problems.

 

Most normal chapters can continue making standard marines, as they have done for the last 10k years, for the reasons given by GW as to why they make them alongside Primaris.

 

The chapters with difficult geneseed will probably continue to make standard marines with the problems now anyway. They haven’t been replaced by new chapters of standard marines with purer geneseed up until now, I doubt Primaris will change anything in that regard.

[Xisor]

On degradation, Quixius raises a neat point that the mechanism of degradation isn't clear.

 

For example:

- if Primaris were better because they were using 10k old geneseed, then that says nothing about the quality of Primaris used using such seed, nor normal Marines used using that same stock.

- but it could be coincidental. Primaris could be better even if the extra legwork is done using "degraded" stock - it might not be a consequence of degraded

- what does "degraded" mean here? Difference from the original? Lower success rate? (Is the success rate compared using the same process, or are there confounding factors?)

- what caused such degradation - poor quality control over 10k years, poor implementation, careless storage, the inevitable curse of generations (in which case faster turnover of Primaris generations means you're going to have similar problems for Primaris sooner than you got for Oldies).

 

We also don't know if any vulnerabilities have been introduced by Cawl's tinkerings, nor if practical selective pressures have been undone. (E.g. Any Chapter lines that died out as a result of catastrophic genetic difficulties - Cawl has not that we know of guaranteed that precautions have been taken to prevent repeats.)

 

Consider the Wolf Brothers. The Dark and Cursed Foundings. The Blight of the Emperor's Children, the instability of the Thousand Sons.

 

Cawl claims to have eliminated these - but in spinning plates dedicating attention to some wobbles necessitates a sacrifice in attention given to supposedly stable plates.

 

Has Cawl opened the door for Ultramarine, Imperial Fist and White Scar genetic absurdities? Has he neutered the Space Wolves and chemically zombied the Blood Angels?

 

Moreover, what happens when one day a genestealer kisses a Primaris behind the bike shed?

[Captain Idaho]

Ultramarines have direct access to their Primarch again so it'll be an obvious choice that they can reproduce gene stocks in a more stable way just like the old days.

 

I hope for the background sake that Primaris aren't kept perfect. Personally I want Cawl to have produced these super Marines utilising tech from the Thunder Warriors. MAYBE even these outright being Thunder Warriors being repackaged.

 

That would be something. Primaris only live for a couple hundred years whilst Classic Marines can go on longer. Or the Thunder Warriors Primaris are more violent and brutish hence why they operate in specilisms.

 

Though that's unlikely in the extreme.

[Xisor]

Ooh, I'd not considered the longevity angle!

 

And there's no guarantee that the armour Cawl made for Guilliman us good for Guilliman's health longterm.

 

Alive? Sure.

Healthy? More boltguns!

[Robbienw]

It would have been so much better if they had made some drawbacks or caveats to Primaris when they brought them in. Like saying that are bigger and tougher than normal marines, but are a lot slower. Or short lived like the thunder warriors like captain Idaho said above.

[Ishagu]

You say that's better, but I say that's just repeating the past. We've already had the cursed foundings, cloning projects etc that all ended badly.

 

The Primaris are the symbol of the Imperium rising to face the threats of the galaxy head on. If it should fall, it will not do so lying down.

 

I understand the attachments to old collections and what not, but Primaris are simply the new Astartes range and natural evolution to go alongside the new setting. I did point out that the classic Marines were written into a narrative dead end. How can you introduce exciting and divergent new models when the lore states that a new weapon option on a Razorback requires thousands of years of trials?

 

Primaris are a shake up, and a symbol of change. If wargear can be updated why not the warriors themselves? They are, after all, living weapons. If the next model release has a teleporting, cloaking, hover tank it's absolutely fine! Pandora's box has been opened, the sky's the limit.

 

I have over 10,000 points of classic Marines and honestly, it was getting dull. At first I was outaged like some people but after a week of digesting what I saw I became excited. It is, after all, a new and exciting model range. Can you imagine what new things we might get in the next few years? Look at the Stormcast Eternals and how their range expanded to what it is now!

[Quixus]

I get the angle of selling new models to old customers, but what I don't get is the fluff/crunch disconnect.

 

TDA are supposed to be the pinnacle of Imperial personal armour and their users should be the best marines equipped with the best weapons, yet Centurions and Aggressors are simply better on the table top.

 

Plasma weapons are supposed to be rare, yet you can equip whole squads with the newer better primaris plasma weapons.

 

Inceptors are better than assault marines or vanguard veterans, they even seem to go against the codex, as shooty jump infantry seemed to be forbidden (or at least impossible). I would love to have jump pack marines with storm bolter and chainsword, and the option of 2 special weapons per 5 marines.

 

And with all this innovation they are not able to put differently sized seats in the old or new vehicles? Come on.

 

Either GW is a miniature company and should just make miniatures and leave the rules to someone else or they are a gaming company and their product should have internal consistency. All of these issues could have been addressed with little to no impact on the bottom line.

[Captain Idaho]

You say that's better, but I say that's just repeating the past. We've already had the cursed foundings, cloning projects etc that all ended badly.

The Primaris are the symbol of the Imperium rising to face the threats of the galaxy head on. If it should fall, it will not do so lying down.

I understand the attachments to old collections and what not, but Primaris are simply the new Astartes range and natural evolution to go alongside the new setting. I did point out that the classic Marines were written into a narrative dead end. How can you introduce exciting and divergent new models when the lore states that a new weapon option on a Razorback requires thousands of years of trials?

Primaris are a shake up, and a symbol of change. If wargear can be updated why not the warriors themselves? They are, after all, living weapons. If the next model release has a teleporting, cloaking, hover tank it's absolutely fine! Pandora's box has been opened, the sky's the limit.

I have over 10,000 points of classic Marines and honestly, it was getting dull. At first I was outaged like some people but after a week of digesting what I saw I became excited. It is, after all, a new and exciting model range. Can you imagine what new things we might get in the next few years? Look at the Stormcast Eternals and how their range expanded to what it is now!

That philosophy doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

 

Guilliman is back. He can order any changes he wants to the existing range of Space Marines. It actually makes it more interesting because he would likely cause divisions amongst the Imperium for doing so.

 

Primaris can't be perfect. I get that's what you want but it's lame and not particularly nuanced enough to encourage people to buy into the hobby.

 

"Look at these new models! They're bigger and stronger and faster and incorruptible and have better weapons and can't fail."

 

To be honest, it's so shallow that only GW employees can defend it.

[Ishagu]

Why do people think that flaws make something interesting? Good design, stories and rules make things interesting.

 

If you want "flawed" Astartes there's a big range comprised of 20 years of models readily available. What is the point of having the exact same tropes repeated over and over again? That's more boring than anything.

 

As for Primaris not being compatible with older vehicles - this to me is pretty silly in the case of the Landraider, Stormraven, Spartan, etc

 

In the case of Rhinos, Razorbacks, you could say those simply aren't fit for purpose anymore in the eyes of the Primarch and the new Nova Codex Astartes which is being developed on the fly as the story progresses.

 

Edit:

 

To add, yes there is change. Some are claiming the lore is bad. I'd like to point out the novels set in the post Gathering Storm setting are easily some of the best 40k fiction we've had.

The new model line is pretty stunning, although some might not like it because it's different. It's certainly very detailed, imposing and slick.

 

It comes down to people's personal displeasure that the universe has gone in a direction they wouldn't have picked, or things that don't gel with their head-cannon. You have to realise those are personal and not objective complaints about the new setting. We got change and change can be upsetting. I think it's for the best. We don't even know what awaits us as the range grows. The next set of models released might look so great that people WANT to collect them regardless of what they like or dislike about the new lore.

[deathspectersgt7]

Some of us can look beyond the new shiney trinkets . I like both . New lore that is some thing else. 

[Ishagu]

Like I said the new stories are pretty awesome. Worth reading as they invest us more in the new setting.

[Volt]

 

 

I think Space Marines as a whole are highly competitive organizations.  Even the Ultramarines.  We are talking about elite warrior societies whose selection process is exceptionally brutal and difficult.  The net result is 1000 warriors who, by design, are selected because they are the best physically as well as intelligently, and they are absolutely competitive.  There is no Private Pyle in the Ultramarines.  Or the Space Wolves.  Everyone of them is an Alexander... or a Leonidas.

No they aren't. Astartes are drilled and run as a military unit, they are not an army of individual heroes - that is the Custodes. Not only does the Horus Heresy make a point of hammering this excessively, but the structure of the Astartes Legions and Chapters themselves make it quite clear they are not competetive with each other. Hell much of the Unforgiven still go the Rogue Trader route of mindwiping/hypnotizing their marines to be enthralled if necessary to prevent blue on blue situations. The average brother is not a legendary hero, but a tactical marine or devastator with only a century at most under his belt who lives, breathes, and thinks as a unit. Many Astartes even divorce themselves of individualistic pursuits, living in purely austere conditions.

 

 

 

More Flexible and readily available equipment - I do not buy this.  First it implies that the Primaris Equipment is less flexible.  This is silly.  The Mark X armor is a highly flexible and adaptable piece of power armor. It can be configured for stealth and surprise assaults.  It can be up-armoured and configured in a way that it almost matches Terminator armor.  It can be equipped with thrusters and jets and dropped from orbit.  No other power armor in the history of the Astartes is as adaptable and flexible.  The Bolt Rifle is just as well more flexible than its traditional counter part.  The same could be said of the Plasma Incinerator.   The Repulsor makes the Rhino, the Razorback, and the Predator obsolete.  It combines them all into one platform, that is also configurable and flexible to attack different situations.  Primaris equipment, from the get go, is designed to be highly adaptable, flexible and completely makes older types of equipment obsolete.  Now you no longer need to have a landspeeder crewed by two of your genetically bred supersoldiers... plus a whole vehicle built for them.  Now you can make some modifications to one warriors armor and drop him from orbit with similar capabilities and firepower.  When you only have 1000 or so warriors at your command... then this is HUGE!

 

No it isn't, and this line of thinking is failing to grasp what is actually needed from a squad in warfare. Primaris are the exact opposite of flexible, possessing a downright idiotic structure of putting all of your eggs in one basket. Hellblasters and Intercessors are not "adaptable", they are crippled mono-role infantry units that are co-dependent on their brother squads and are royally fethed on their own if caught without the rest of the force. Having better boltguns is firstly mostly meaningless because riflemen are not the primary "punching power" of any infantry unit. The primary source of casualties for any military force is artillery, followed by high explosives. Intercessors' upgunned bolters may allow them to scythe through tyranid warriors with greater efficiency, but for most enemies they face they are total overkill, demand new logistical trains to be established (as you have to replace all manufactorums, and refit EVERY SINGLE ONE building bolts to produce new bolt calibers), and most importantly do nothing against enemy armor. A squad of intercessors by itself is of ultimately little use, being only good for killing infantry, light vehicles, and aircraft if they get really, really lucky with their shots.

 

What do a squad of intercessors do when a squadron of Leman Russes show up, or daemon engines, or literally any enemy armor? Die, get suppressed, or flee for their lives. They can't kill them or even inflict much damage unless dense terrain allows them to approach and board/assault the enemy vehicular support and toss krak grenades at them. Of course they can call in Hellblasters, but what do the hellblasters do when they are assaulted by a large horde of orks, tyranids, or daemons? They die because they only have heavy weapons useful for long range shooting, that are precarious to use in close quarters without melting their own faces off. But they can call in Aggressors to deal with that of course. Except Aggressors lack any long ranged weapons, meaning that despite their heavy armor they can be gutted by long range enemy AT fire and are only effective when used in dense terrain or with tight support. But of course they can call in Inceptors. But these are giant, fat, larger-than-terminator flying targets vulnerable to enemy AA fire that also need constant tight support.

 

And therein lies the utter idiocy of this concept. Primaris Marines require Guilluman to suffer a stroke, lose every single shred of his competent grasp of grand strategy, and take the Space Marines, already a dangerously small military unit, and completely rob them of their ability to autonomously disperse over a wide area. Unlike their Primaris Marine brethren, the normal space marine actually is adaptable due to their fairly intelligent (because it's basically ripped off from modern military units of the 20th-21st centuries) structure that allow for each unit to support itself and stand by itself. A tactical squad that runs into a leman russ squadron needn't fear being annihilated because they have a dedicated heavy weapon to deal with heavy armor, and/or have a dedicated weapon specialist tailored to destroy armor (or deal with hordes). A devastator squad being rushed by a horde can not only bring heavy bolters into the field to simply scythe them down, but always bring a group of line marines with boltguns to fend off their heavy weapon toting brothers. A Terminator Squad never has to worry about lacking long ranged weapons, and both pack better armor than Aggressors, but also the ability to deal with tanks and aircraft, and conduct direct teleporter assaults. Likewise Assault Marines are not only smaller targets than aggressors, but they also can pack specialized weapons to deal with just about any threat on their lonesome.

 

Primaris, by their nonsensical structure, are forced to consolidate with little breadth between their units to make sure the company doesn't get picked apart and annihilated. Normal marines however actually are adaptable and functional, and can spread out over a wide area to meet threats as necessary, without having to wail for support. Their structure ensures they are never in a position of weakness, but constantly evolving to meet the latest threat on the field. 

 

 

 

To further buy this, you have to assume that the guy who wrote the Codex Astartes and developed the concept of Space Marine Chapters, would go into the greatest crusade in 10,000 years with a product that was not fully realized and capable.  I cannot accept that.  We know that their are still units and equipment that we have not seen yet.  We know they are on the way.  Does this mean they are "new" in the lore sense... or will they just be shoe-horned in like the Storm Ravens and Centurion War Suits.  I am leaning towards the latter.  It is the only way it adds up.  The new units will have always been there.  When that happens, this fact will sound less plausible.

 

Guilliman isn't exactly a genius seeing as how not only has he doubled back on his fairly sensible prior chapter structure, but he was behind the original legion structure in the first place, which suffered from the same idiotic over-specialization of primaris units. Guilliman is succeeding not because he is a brilliant commander in this respect, but because he is swinging a hammer powered by a nuclear thruster at some rather ordinary nails.

 

 

 

I also cannot accept that their equipment is more readily available.  Astartes do not die without their equipment.  In the biggest galaxy shattering event, it is clear that the Space Marines were losing.  Homeworlds are lost or severely damaged.  Chapters are pushed to the brink of Annihilation across the Imperium... but some how they have all their equipment?  Nonsense.  Cawl had 10,000 years to develop equipment and replacement equipment.  The Primaris Chapters certainly have enough.  And anyone who believes the Chapter Armories are not filled with artisans who can convert, repair or create replacement parts and equipment for their Primaris marines are fooling themselves.  This is a poorly thought out argument on why Chapters would create the older type.

 

A single planet, far removed from most astartes chapters bearing the tech to make primaris equipment, is worthless considering the time it will take to distribute said resources to the far corners of the galaxy. Because logistics isn't something you accomplish by waving a magic wand, and you need hundreds of worlds producing this equipment. You also need to refit all of said manufactorums/forge worlds too. Which is not only going to be absurdly expensive, but time intensive too. None of this grows on trees, and neither does the Imperium possess enough of it to spend freely.

 

[Ishagu]

Primaris combat doctrines are absolutely fine.

 

Eggs in one basket is not a flaw as long as you deploy multiple units. Primaris aren't designed to operate as a single squad, they typically deploy as demi companies in the current lore.

 

Also to try and call out Guilliman as an avarge commander (the greatest living general in the setting bar none whatsoever) shows you are pretty biased, and hence not objectively analysing anything.

[Volt]

Primaris combat doctrines are absolutely fine.

 

Eggs in one basket is not a flaw as long as you deploy multiple units. Primaris aren't designed to operate as a single squad, they typically deploy as demi companies in the current lore.

 

Also to try and call out Guilliman as an avarge commander (the greatest living general in the setting bar none whatsoever) shows you are pretty biased, and hence not objectively analysing anything.

No, it is a horrible flaw because it opens up a gaping wound to be exploited by the enemy, as simply dividing your force up immediately compromises its ability to fight, along with limiting its options. Space Marines are durable, but still can be killed by massed artillery barrages or heavy support in the form of enemy titan equivalents or a blitzkrieg of an armor column. A company of 6 Tactical squads, 2 Devastators, and 2 Assaults can still function if the devastators are suddenly vaporized by a plasma bombard due to the tactical squads bringing their own special equipment to bear. A Primaris company of 6 Intercessors, 2 Hellblasters, and 1/1 Inceptors/Aggressors will flat out die to a column of armor if the Hellblasters get vaporized by a plasma bombard on account of lacking any ability to deal with enemy armor at all.

 

So of course Guilliman is an absolute moron of a commander if he thinks this is at all a good idea, seeing as how he has done the grand strategy version of shooting your arm off. Modern militaries field squads with mixed weapons because sending out dudes armed purely with rifles is the height of stupidity in any point of time where the enemy has anything more than infantry. It's like Guilliman had a stroke and relapsed from WWII-Cold War to the Napoleonic era. Not to mention the sudden change in logistics, where you now need to refit everything, everywhere, to supply primaris marine equipment.

 

This is not something you do while fighting a defensive war of attrition while the enemy is carving gigantic chunks out of your teritory.

[Captain Idaho]

Why do people think that flaws make something interesting? Good design, stories and rules make things interesting.

If you want "flawed" Astartes there's a big range comprised of 20 years of models readily available. What is the point of having the exact same tropes repeated over and over again? That's more boring than anything.

As for Primaris not being compatible with older vehicles - this to me is pretty silly in the case of the Landraider, Stormraven, Spartan, etc

In the case of Rhinos, Razorbacks, you could say those simply aren't fit for purpose anymore in the eyes of the Primarch and the new Nova Codex Astartes which is being developed on the fly as the story progresses.

Edit:

To add, yes there is change. Some are claiming the lore is bad. I'd like to point out the novels set in the post Gathering Storm setting are easily some of the best 40k fiction we've had.

The new model line is pretty stunning, although some might not like it because it's different. It's certainly very detailed, imposing and slick.

It comes down to people's personal displeasure that the universe has gone in a direction they wouldn't have picked, or things that don't gel with their head-cannon. You have to realise those are personal and not objective complaints about the new setting. We got change and change can be upsetting. I think it's for the best. We don't even know what awaits us as the range grows. The next set of models released might look so great that people WANT to collect them regardless of what they like or dislike about the new lore.

It's got little to do with my head canon but I do concede that the direction is a radical change to something I don't like.

 

Regardless, objectively looking at the Dark Imperium novel (Not read the sequel) you can't say it's the best written.

 

That shows YOUR bias. Seriously, the politics and plot was good. I enjoyed the parts behind the wars and Calgar's lament.

 

The action scenes? Intercessors shooting down multiple Blight Drones, a single Inceptor gunning down whole squads of Iron Warriors... it was terribly at odds of the actual book feel. It was an advert plain and simple.

 

Lastly, your argument that there already exists flawed Space Marines so why repeat it contradicts what you've said numerous times before. Primaris are the future.

 

There won't be Classic Marines releases and there are few people who are fooled by GW into thinking Marines aren't going away so that means ALL the new Primaris releases and eventually the only Space Marines available are the flawless, shallow, infallible Primaris.

 

So no, I don't and won't ever agree that super Space Marines with greater strength, resilience, easier production, incorruptible minds and infallible lives are going to be good for the hobby.

[Ishagu]

I tell you what's much easier to exploit. Not changing your tactics and wargear in 10 thousand years. If it wasn't for Primaris shaking things up I can't imagine Astartes ever bring able to defeat Tau, Nids, Eldar after a few engagements.

 

I never said the latest books were the best written. I said they are darn good.

[Captain Idaho]

 

Primaris combat doctrines are absolutely fine.

Eggs in one basket is not a flaw as long as you deploy multiple units. Primaris aren't designed to operate as a single squad, they typically deploy as demi companies in the current lore.

Also to try and call out Guilliman as an avarge commander (the greatest living general in the setting bar none whatsoever) shows you are pretty biased, and hence not objectively analysing anything.

 

No, it is a horrible flaw because it opens up a gaping wound to be exploited by the enemy, as simply dividing your force up immediately compromises its ability to fight, along with limiting its options. Space Marines are durable, but still can be killed by massed artillery barrages or heavy support in the form of enemy titan equivalents or a blitzkrieg of an armor column. A company of 6 Tactical squads, 2 Devastators, and 2 Assaults can still function if the devastators are suddenly vaporized by a plasma bombard due to the tactical squads bringing their own special equipment to bear. A Primaris company of 6 Intercessors, 2 Hellblasters, and 1/1 Inceptors/Aggressors will flat out die to a column of armor if the Hellblasters get vaporized by a plasma bombard on account of lacking any ability to deal with enemy armor at all.

 

So of course Guilliman is an absolute moron of a commander if he thinks this is at all a good idea, seeing as how he has done the grand strategy version of shooting your arm off. Modern militaries field squads with mixed weapons because sending out dudes armed purely with rifles is the height of stupidity in any point of time where the enemy has anything more than infantry. It's like Guilliman had a stroke and relapsed from WWII-Cold War to the Napoleonic era. Not to mention the sudden change in logistics, where you now need to refit everything, everywhere, to supply primaris marine equipment.

 

This is not something you do while fighting a defensive war of attrition while the enemy is carving gigantic chunks out of your teritory.

It's off topic to discuss Guilliman's deployment strategy. Please start a new thread to continue this topic.