Chapters still making standard Space Marines

[Volt]

I tell you what's much easier to exploit. Not changing your tactics and wargear in 10 thousand years. If it wasn't for Primaris shaking things up I can't imagine Astartes ever bring able to defeat Tau, Nids, Eldar after a few engagements.

Not changing your wargear and tactics is fine for 10,000 years when your enemy doesn't either, and is objectively superior to tactically regressing several centuries in human warfare to a mode of combat that has long since been abandoned due to leaving units high and dry if they are cut off from the rest of the group for whatever reason. It certainly is no excuse for the implementation of primaris squad structure, as it does not stand up to a single glance of scrutiny. The competent, logical response isn't to suddenly overhaul everything and demand an excessive amount of resources be blown on upgrading the durability of marines at the cost of their adaptability, but to simply make more marines. You know what's better than 1 million primaris marines? Ten million normal marines. Or ten billion. The only thing holding them back is arbitrary limits on production. 

 

 

 

It's off topic to discuss Guilliman's deployment strategy. Please start a new thread to continue this topic.

 

It directly ties into the subject however. Chapters making standard marines makes perfect logical sense because unless you ignore the directions on how to equip primaris units and instead outfit them like old marine units; the chapter is ultimately crippling its ability to prosecute campaigns. There is no logical reason to jump on the Primaris bus when the Primaris bus is tactically and logistically the inferior option to what was already being done. Although Guilliman was more of a tangent regarding the greater issue.

[Quixus]

It directly ties into the subject however. Chapters making standard marines makes perfect logical sense because unless you ignore the directions on how to equip primaris units and instead outfit them like old marine units; the chapter is ultimately crippling its ability to prosecute campaigns. There is no logical reason to jump on the Primaris bus when the Primaris bus is tactically and logistically the inferior option to what was already being done. Although Guilliman was more of a tangent regarding the greater issue.

And that could have been achieved in the exact way as marine units got an update previously. Compare RT marines to the B@C MKIV. Ruleswise the same but looking quite different and being a lot larger. No need for "super marines", "super terminators" etc.

[Robbienw]

Yes that’s one of the weaknesses of Primaris Marines, lack of tactical flexibility and lack of wargear variation. An obvious reason why you need to keep standard marines.

 

The pro Primaris crowd always say ‘but Primaris could easily use any normal marine weapon’. This is appears to be true for personal weapons, but for whatever reason they don’t/can’t/won’t, so standard marines are still relied upon to bring the variation and flexibility.

 

Until cawl manages to develop new and more varied Primaris weapons and units that replicate or improve on standard marine only capabilities, standard marines will be necessary in large numbers.

 

I’m not sure how Primaris only chapters manage to be as effective a fighting force as a mixed chapter. Perhaps they aren’t as effective. Or perhaps they have even started making standard marines to take advantage of all the available gear!

[Ishagu]

People are too worried about what's on the tabletop right now.

 

I don't want Primaris to use ANY of the existing weapons from regular Astartes. I want every unit to have unique wargear so they can be balanced and costed independently. After a few more releases there won't be any gaps in their ability to battle.

 

Once they get some fast moving CC units, a main battle tank, expanded command options and a few other things the current problems will be solved.

[Robbienw]

This has nothing to do with rules and what is on the tabletop. That is irrelevant to this discussion. It’s about the background lore and standard space marines still being made in it.

[Ishagu]

But people do bring up the gaps in the Primaris capabilities. I'm pointing out that any gaps in the lore are due to gaps in the model line. Once that's expanded there won't be such shortcomings.

[Robbienw]

Possibly. Or they might focus on doing more unique units that are different to regular marine stuff again and there will still be gaps.

 

It’s going to take a lot more units to equal every standard marine capability, and its taking a while for any serious new Primaris unit to appear. 15 months and counting so far.

[Ishagu]

They only really lack fast moving close combat, dedicated anti tank and methods of getting around which could be done through strats.

[Robbienw]

And meltaguns, gravguns, missile launchers, man portable lascannons, battle tanks, siege tanks, missile artillery, anti-air weaponary, air superiority fighters, close fast air support, terminators, light transports vehicles, bikes of some sort, quick delivery systems like a drop pod or similar, etc.

 

I’m talking about stuff from a fluff point of view here of course, all the stuff that has been deemed necessary for standard marines over the last 10k years of which there is no Primaris equivalent. What they ‘need’ in the rules to play better in game is irrelevant.

[Ishagu]

They don't need all those things at all.

 

For the army to function you only need:

 

Anti infantry weapons

Anti elite weapons

Anti tank weapons

 

Ranged and CC units, means of mobility.

 

Your thinking is tied to the old line too much. They don't need to copy past weapon templates but they may well do so. They might get a whole new line of weapons and units that are divergent.

[Quixus]

Until cawl manages to develop new and more varied Primaris weapons and units that replicate or improve on standard marine only capabilities, standard marines will be necessary in large numbers.

Well just mixing bolter and plasma weapons would make them more in line with current military doctrine. Grenade launcher, a plasma incinerator, a heavy plasma incinerator and a power sword on the Sarge and they look a lot like a useful infantry squad, well at least to deal with infantry and light vehicles. They also look a lot like a tactical squad then.  Even being allowed to mix the already available weapons in the hellblaster and inceptor squads would  make them more flexible.

 

Ranged and CC units, means of mobility.

Well CC weapons aren't strictly required if the ranged weapons are strong enough. LOS and cover ignoring weapons would mitigate the need for mobility as well, but then we would have a tau army.

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

The problem with using holes in model lineups to justify fluff is that GW treats a lot of new units as always being there. When they introduce new primaris units it wouldn't shock me if they are portrayed as being around from the start of Primaris.

 

 

The main reasons chapters make legacy marines imo is that they can pilot the war machines, and they trust them. Age is just one of the possible flaws that they could have, most chapters aren't going to just trust them from the start and they'll have to prove themselves for a long time.

[Robbienw]

They don't need all those things at all.

 

 

They need all of those things. It doesn’t have to be of exactly the same nature as the old marine weaponry, but it has to have the same or better effect against the enemies of the imperium.

 

Your thinking is tied too heavily to what happens in the 40k tabletop game currently.

[Robbienw]

When they introduce new primaris units it wouldn't shock me if they are portrayed as being around from the start of Primaris.

 

They have generally done that with pre-Primaris new units (although not with the storm Raven, notably), but I’m not sure they will go this route with new Primaris units. I have a feeling they will change it a bit this time and present new units as more recently developed by cawl and gulliamn, coming into service at the current in universe time.

[Captain Idaho]

It's highly subjective to say Classic Marines have failed where Primaris succeeded. There is no evidence of that. Primaris were a deus ex mechanica introduced into the background very roughly to solve a problem introduced to justify their existence.

 

The more we have this discussion the more I think about Primaris. The more I think about it the more I want to abandon 40K, sadly. It feels cheap and unnecessary. It feels like a way to spin money quickly without effort.

 

I'm out of this discussion because if I continue any more I'll end up selling my army. By all means reply as a point for each other to discuss but I'm not involved any more.

[Ishagu]

 

They don't need all those things at all.

 

 

They need all of those things. It doesn’t have to be of exactly the same nature as the old marine weaponry, but it has to have the same or better effect against the enemies of the imperium.

 

Your thinking is tied too heavily to what happens in the 40k tabletop game currently.

You realise you're repeating exactly what I said?

 

My point is that they don't need all the options. If a missile launcher was never adapted it doesn't matter at all as long as they still have Las Cannons and anti infantry weapons. I don't care for migrating all the bloat from the exusting line. And yes, it's full of bloat and useless units or wargear options.

 

Read my post.

[Robbienw]

 

 

They don't need all those things at all.

 

 

They need all of those things. It doesn’t have to be of exactly the same nature as the old marine weaponry, but it has to have the same or better effect against the enemies of the imperium.

 

Your thinking is tied too heavily to what happens in the 40k tabletop game currently.

You realise you're repeating exactly what I said?

 

My point is that they don't need all the options. If a missile launcher was never adapted it doesn't matter at all as long as they still have Las Cannons and anti infantry weapons. I don't care for migrating all the bloat from the exusting line. And yes, it's full of bloat and useless units or wargear options.

 

Read my post.

Bottom line is they need a lot more units than they have now to be able to equal the tactical flexibility of standard marines if you want them to be a stand-alone force.

 

I’m not saying they should cut and paste everything, or produce Primaris copies of current units. But they need equivalent or better capabilities and they need more than just a couple of new units to achieve this.

 

As for the standard space marine line having too much bloat I disagree. Maybe there are couple of uneccessary when you take all chapter variants into account, but generally it looks like a well honed military organisation with a variety of gear to meet any situation. If you think they are bloated from having too many units in the rules, that’s nice, but it is entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

[Ishagu]

4 Terminator variants, 3 of which are near identical. Assault and Vanguard squads. The stalker and hunter, loads of useless wargear.

 

Bloat and more bloat. And I OWN all of those units.

[Robbienw]

You are talking about rules bloat though which, again, is irrelevant.

 

All of those make sense from a fluff point of view.  

[Quixus]

4 Terminator variants, 3 of which are near identical. Assault and Vanguard squads. The stalker and hunter, loads of useless wargear.

 

Bloat and more bloat. And I OWN all of those units.

What terminator variants are you talking about I only see two Assault and shooty. The problem with Terminators is that for vanilla marines they do not work like with Space Wolves or the traitors, not only in the rules but also in the fluff IIRC. The jump pack marines are similar, why wouldn't a veteran think that a lightning claw and a meltagun would be a good idea

[Ishagu]

There's Cataphractii, Tartaors.

 

None of them are Shooty or punchy enough lol

[Leif Bearclaw]

 

4 Terminator variants, 3 of which are near identical. Assault and Vanguard squads. The stalker and hunter, loads of useless wargear.

 

Bloat and more bloat. And I OWN all of those units.

What terminator variants are you talking about I only see two Assault and shooty. The problem with Terminators is that for vanilla marines they do not work like with Space Wolves or the traitors, not only in the rules but also in the fluff IIRC. The jump pack marines are similar, why wouldn't a veteran think that a lightning claw and a meltagun would be a good idea

 

I think he's counting the alternate Marine dex Termies too. Although then there should be 5, Marine Tactical and Assault, BA Assault, DA Deathwing and SW Wolf Guard.

 

But then I'd certainly say the 'Marine range' isn't bloated when it covers 4 separate Dexes (5 if you count GKs).

 

As for Assault and Vanguard, I wouldn't consider that 'bloat', any more than Sternguard and Tacs are bloat. It's nice to have some fancier dudes for your veterans, and planer dudes for the line squads. Frankly there should be more 'veteran' kits for other armies, then stuff like Kabalite Trueborn may not have disappeared, and choices like Ardboyz wouldn't be relegated to Stratagems.

 

Edit: Whoops. Completely wrong .

[Volt]

4 Terminator variants, 3 of which are near identical. Assault and Vanguard squads. The stalker and hunter, loads of useless wargear.

 

Bloat and more bloat. And I OWN all of those units.

For the love of god, options and customization isn't bloat. If you were ever let anywhere near a codex, every single marine army would be built and played the exact same way with no variation. The entire point of marine armies is the "your dudes" aspect with the freedom to excessively customize your force in wargear and units. Why the hell should we ever want what you want, which is to rip out the very soul of the marine army and turn them into nothing more than Eldar?

 

If GW ever adopts that line of thinking, you might as well just kill off the entire Space Marine community. There is no point in playing or being a fan of an army if you want to change every aspect of it simply because you want new toys to play with. We don't need new unique units with never-before-seen wargear. What we just need is a finished product line. Missile launchers and grav guns are fine, all the need is rules that make them more viable outside of kill team such as bonuses against flyers or just bringing back templates. Not just from the watsonian perspective, but in the doylist sense as well the Primaris are unnecessary. We didn't need a single new model, at all. Space Marines should have never received a new original unit ever again, the only updates being updates to model lines as they grew old, or adding units that already existed in the lore such as land raiders and old flyers. 

[Jorin Helm-splitter]

 

When they introduce new primaris units it wouldn't shock me if they are portrayed as being around from the start of Primaris.

They have generally done that with pre-Primaris new units (although not with the storm Raven, notably), but I’m not sure they will go this route with new Primaris units. I have a feeling they will change it a bit this time and present new units as more recently developed by cawl and gulliamn, coming into service at the current in universe time.

 

 

Its definitely possible, though I was under the impression that fluff wise there was a fair amount of distance between them. I also think that saying they were around from the start makes a bit more sense for units that are available to every chapter because communication is limited in 40k and also whether a chapter could start to fabricate the new gear is questionable.

[UnkyHamHam]

I know the general consensus in this thread is that erasing and replacing the "old guard" with the new big boys is seen as negative.  I want to say that I very much agree with that sentiment.  For so many reasons.  Reasons that many here like Volt, Idaho, and Robbie have already delved deep into.  And I have definitely spoke just as much on the subject in older threads.  But here and now, I want to devil's advocate for the opposing side just a little to help bridge the gap in conversation.  Because as much as I agree on how badly implemented the Primaris are, I do think they are workable, and can be interesting.  I'll give you a few of my thoughts.

 

First off, Legion organization.  There were comments saying this was a bad idea in the first place, and that Chapter org is superior.  This was trying to prove a point that Chapters reverting back to Legion org was stupid and a clear strategic and tactical regression.  I agree and disagree here.  The reason the Legion worked and that org was useful really just comes down to numbers.  The Legions operated in MUCH larger military formations, and were going to war in massed numbers.  Numbers that dwarfed our modern day Chapters by exponential factors.  There were at any given time, more marines in a single Expeditionary Crusade fleet, cruising around purging en masse, than there were during the all the Wars for Armageddon and the Badab War COMBINED.  Legions are dozens of Chapters worth of marines.  This isn't even taking into account their subordinates and vassals that crusaded with them like Mechanicum, Titans, Solar Auxila, and Imperial Army/Armada detachments.

 

I think that allowed for the type of specialized units to be deployed in larger groups and could depend on each other.  A company would generally deploy with many specialist detachments in support.  In general, Legions went to war on a larger scale, and in larger formations and detachments.  Obviously, a handful of Legions saw how this wasn't very efficient at small scale operations.  Legions like the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard started tooling up their vets into all purpose squads, and this trickled down to all the other Legions.  Obviously, it has a special forces vibe.  These vets were able to accomplish more with less, because of that experience and unit versatility being combined on a small level.  That I think helped pave the way for post-Codex Chapter org.

 

This falls apart with Primaris to me.  Exactly because of numbers.  Or lack there of, more accurately.  You simply can't effectively play the Legion game with Chapter numbers.  You are shooting yourself in the foot.  This may be the one case I agree on Guilliman being stupid.  However, it really is the GW writers who are defacing his good name by writing this nonsense for him.  Which is where I really feel Idaho's sentiment.  The writers aren't doing their best, and the setting is suffering for it.  We need to more quality writing done on the Primaris full stop.  Patience and hope for the future is all we have.  And yes I'm aware of 40k's thoughs on hope lol.

 

IF Guilliman had properly implemented Primaris, in my head canon anyways, it would go like this.  And this is where I think it is workable.  Primaris are "supremacy" units, not "utility" units like most of the old marine units.  Meaning that they take 1, maybe 2, things and excel at them, rather that the utility unit approach of being a jack of all trades master of none.  So I think the Primaris actually make sense and work well in this reguard. 

 

You could deploy a couple of Tac squads and a single Intercessor squad to plug a gap in your lines somewhere.  On a more strategic level, the Intercessors, and maybe an attached Repulsor, are the core killing power here.  Set up to maximize firing lanes. While the Tacticals, and maybe their Rhinos/Razors, are your reserve mobile element.  You would keep the Tacticals protecting the Intercessors, and only really commit them if the enemy sent it heavier equipment.  You would send the Tacs to focus their specials and heavies to bring down any thing the Intercessors couldn't chew up.  The Ints couldn't do it without the Tacs, due to the lack of anything to take down heavier stuff.  And the Tacs, although they have the capacity for all forms of war, would be worse off without the Int's focused infantry killing power.

 

I think if you play them this way on the tabletop and look at them in the lore this way, they both make a lot of sense.  The problem is, GW is telling us that doesn't matter.  The Primaris simply don't need the old marines any longer.  That's why they did the Ultima Founding (which is a joke and makes a mockery of common sense).  

 

TLDR;  Primaris NEED old marines to operate fully functional Chapter (for now).  Old marines do not need Primaris, but they are I think very nice to have. And on the strategic level, are more tools in the tool box of a Chapter.