Chapters still making standard Space Marines

[Xisor]

It's worth restating my point from a month or two back: I don't at all feel like tiny maker's marks on weapon profiles (Stalker pattern bolt gun vs Stalker bolt rifle) really help matters at all.

 

It's complication that optimises only in the tiniest of ways, but is more to keep track of.

 

If each new Marine release features a barely-different pattern of bolt weapon, I'm not at all confident I'll enjoy it.

 

That said, if it also means that they produce datasheets properly... (All relevant rules on the page. Having Tactical/Devastator Marines not list their special or heavy weapon profiles is very irritating.)

 

----

 

That said, I'm sympathetic to the desire to tread new ground, rather than primarily rehash old ideas.

 

I just think a bolt rifle is rehashing the idea of a bolt gun. Worse, it's rehashing the idea three times.

[UnkyHamHam]

It's worth restating my point from a month or two back: I don't at all feel like tiny maker's marks on weapon profiles (Stalker pattern bolt gun vs Stalker bolt rifle) really help matters at all.

 

It's complication that optimises only in the tiniest of ways, but is more to keep track of.

 

If each new Marine release features a barely-different pattern of bolt weapon, I'm not at all confident I'll enjoy it.

 

That said, if it also means that they produce datasheets properly... (All relevant rules on the page. Having Tactical/Devastator Marines not list their special or heavy weapon profiles is very irritating.)

 

----

 

That said, I'm sympathetic to the desire to tread new ground, rather than primarily rehash old ideas.

 

I just think a bolt rifle is rehashing the idea of a bolt gun. Worse, it's rehashing the idea three times.

 

I was actually going to make a similar point about the so called "bloat."  Primaris actually needlessly are adding to it and making it worse than ever before.  So many arbitrarily new weapons which are near similar to existing ones.  The Onslaughts could have been Punishers.  The Ironhail Heavy Stubbers could have been normal Heavy Stubbers.  Extra Bolt Rifle and Plasma Incinerator variants.  They even created a new bolt pistol just for Primaris Chaplains and Apothecaries.  Absolvers.  

[Ishagu]

Won't be an issue when they separate the two ranges.

[Xisor]

Won't be an issue when they separate the two ranges.

I'll take that bet too.

 

My tea leaves suggest: Indomitus Bolt Rifles and Invicta Bolt Rifles and Crusader-Pattern Auto Bolt Rifles, and Paternoster Crusade Auto Bolt Rifles and Twin Patented Crucis Autoabsolvor Heavy Bolt Pistols, all with mechanically relevant yet ultimately trivial differences in profile.

 

Not to mention when they give Drum Magazine Special Issue Boltguns, Box Magazine Special Issue Boltguns, Umbra Boltguns, Mars Standard Boltguns, Astartes MkVII Boltguns and many more to Primaris mavericks who use off-the-books "relic" patterns that are still actually & widely available on many datasheets for many models...

 

If they consolidate the range and be restrained yet forthright in decisively introducing new things with *substantial* differences, I'll be very happy and eat my heavy assault ironhail autobolt rifle's Icarus hat.

[Trevak Dal]

You guys think we will ever see hellblaster versions of melta or flamers?

 

And what are reavers for exactly? What's their battlefield role, pseudo assault marines while the intercessors are loyalist crisis suits?

 

Realtalk, I'm confident a Primaris marine could easily use existing weaponry (plasma, flamer, missile launcher, heavy bolters etc)

[Panzer]

You guys think we will ever see hellblaster versions of melta or flamers?

 

And what are reavers for exactly? What's their battlefield role, pseudo assault marines while the intercessors are loyalist crisis suits?

 

Realtalk, I'm confident a Primaris marine could easily use existing weaponry (plasma, flamer, missile launcher, heavy bolters etc)

 

I don't think so. For flamers we have Aggressors and for Melta you'd need some good mobility to properly apply them so if Primaris get some then probably on some new unit.

 

Reavers? Do you mean Reivers? Their battlefield role is to be a bully unit that interrupts the enemys lines. Like T'au Stealth Suits. Unfortunately they don't do it that well.

Intercessors as Crisis Suits? What? How? If anything Inceptors would be more like Crisis Suits and even then only barely due lack of weapon options. If you want to compare Intercessors with a T'au unit then it'd be Firewarriors obviously.

 

Sure could they. They won't tho. It's marketing, they want Primaris and regular Marines to be separate things so they are more than just bigger space marines. That's the reason why their units are more specialised with less options than regular Marine units, why they can't use regular Marine transporters, why many Stratagems don't work on Primaris bei either explicitly excluding them or by simply aiming at weapons they can't use and also why they all have fancy new weapons instead of using the ones that already exist.

[Sword Brother Adelard]

Are Reivers spelt differently in different languages? I notice Schlitz always spells it Reivars.

[Panzer]

No, it's just people not paying attention and spelling it however they want.

[Red_Shift]

I don't really get reivers, thematically. I mean background wise having infiltrators/terror troops makes some sense although they seem like an options limited scout unit. On the table top they just seem weak. No real hitting power. The whole terror troop thing kind of works in the great crusade against human opponents but orks, nids, chaos cultists?

[UnkyHamHam]

The funny thing is, all space marines are terror troops. It's incredibly silly that painting a skull on your face will make you terrifying to the creatures of the 41st millennium.

 

The Reivers are not well designed. Fluff wise or game wise. In the game they just have arbitrary special equipment. You could argue that MAYBE they need that lighter MkX armor to effectively pair with Grapnels and Grav Chutes, but there is no realistic reason why they are hoarding Carbines, Shock grenades, and Heavy pistols.

 

They need something something to make them more specialized to fight, or maybe they need to be able to take Carbines, Pistols, and Knives. I also wouldn't mind if they just came with chutes and Grapnels as standard. And for Throne's sake, let the Sarge take a power weapon and/or plasma pistol.

[Ishagu]

In the lore they attack from the shadows and are silent and invisible.

 

In the novel "Blood of Iax" they dispatch a group of Orks by silently slitting their throats one by one before the Orks realise what's happening.

 

Reivers are not badly designed at all. They look great and are awesome in the lore. GW just needs to alter their rules on the tabletop.

[Boldthreat]

Reivers look great... After a headswap with Intercessor helmets!

[Panzer]

For an assassine unit their rules are terribly designed as well tho. Also killing enemies silently doesn't really fit with the description we got for them from other sources which is usually more like "breaking from stealth in a cacophony of Bolter fire, grenade detonations and guttural, Vox-amplified roars". ^^

[UnkyHamHam]

For an assassine unit their rules are terribly designed as well tho. Also killing enemies silently doesn't really fit with the description we got for them from other sources which is usually more like "breaking from stealth in a cacophony of Bolter fire, grenade detonations and guttural, Vox-amplified roars". ^^

Thank you for adding to what I was saying. They are just bad at what their role is. Which is very unclear.

 

I love the models! GW are top notch model designers. What GW also are, however, is poor rules writers and even worse military theorists.

 

For clarity, I didn't mean the models were badly designed. I meant their fluff military role, and there mechanical game role were both badly designed.

 

Edit:sp and grammar

[spessmarine]

They sound indecisive as to whether they want to be RG or NL

Not trying hard enough to be terror troops, need to take it up to eleven. Right now them seem more up RG alley, is there any fluff even about how the two go together?

[Schlitzaf]

Are Reivers spelt differently in different languages? I notice Schlitz always spells it Reivars.

That is apparently me making a misspelling actually

[Volt]

I don't really get reivers, thematically. I mean background wise having infiltrators/terror troops makes some sense although they seem like an options limited scout unit. On the table top they just seem weak. No real hitting power. The whole terror troop thing kind of works in the great crusade against human opponents but orks, nids, chaos cultists?

Reivers make no sense thematically because there's just no logic to them. Terrorist Space Marines is a redundant concept as space marines are already terrifying. The enemies that are capable of actually feeling fear - namely rebels, feral orks, tau, etc won't be any further scared because their posthuman slayer is wearing a skull mask and shouting spooky things. They're going to be fleeing for their lives because posthumans are ripping them limb for limb, it doesn't matter if they've got skull masks on or are wearing pink tu-tu's. 

 

In the lore they attack from the shadows and are silent and invisible.

 

In the novel "Blood of Iax" they dispatch a group of Orks by silently slitting their throats one by one before the Orks realise what's happening.

 

Reivers are not badly designed at all. They look great and are awesome in the lore. GW just needs to alter their rules on the tabletop.

No they aren't. Repeating GW corporate nonsense doesn't make it true. "Silent and invisible" is something Astartes can already do with anything from assault marines to scouts- just hand them grappling hooks and they fulfill the same exact role. And what does slitting the throat of Ork Boyz achieve? You are dedicating one of the most limited resources you have, primaris space marines, to kill and only kill soft targets. They're yet another Primaris unit without any anti-armor or anti-air capabilities, and worse yet their role is to deploy ahead of the rest of the Chapter. Meaning they can't even depend on hellblasters for backup, they just straight up die if they run into an armor column and can't bug out in time. Marines killing what is little more than chaff, light infantry, isn't a good use of marines. That's what the guard exists for. 

 

They also aren't even good assassins. All they pack is boltguns and knives. They aren't going to fair well when they tasked with bumping off a Khorne Lord who's armor has been reinforced to the point of just shrugging off boltguns, an Ork Warboss who probably can survive getting shot by a 200mm cannon and treat it as nothing other than a fleshwound, or a Kalabite Archon who sees bolts move like raindrops and can jink around them with little difficulty. In short, Reivers are only good at one thing and one thing only, killing weak fodder and the leaders of weak fodder. That's moronic. The Imperium shouldn't be using its rarest troops built to engage the hardest and most deadly threats in the galaxy to effectively beat up and bully the 40k equivalent of a paraplegic. 

[Blindhamster]

 

I don't really get reivers, thematically. I mean background wise having infiltrators/terror troops makes some sense although they seem like an options limited scout unit. On the table top they just seem weak. No real hitting power. The whole terror troop thing kind of works in the great crusade against human opponents but orks, nids, chaos cultists?

Reivers make no sense thematically because there's just no logic to them. Terrorist Space Marines is a redundant concept as space marines are already terrifying. The enemies that are capable of actually feeling fear - namely rebels, feral orks, tau, etc won't be any further scared because their posthuman slayer is wearing a skull mask and shouting spooky things. They're going to be fleeing for their lives because posthumans are ripping them limb for limb, it doesn't matter if they've got skull masks on or are wearing pink tu-tu's. 

 

In the lore they attack from the shadows and are silent and invisible.

 

In the novel "Blood of Iax" they dispatch a group of Orks by silently slitting their throats one by one before the Orks realise what's happening.

 

Reivers are not badly designed at all. They look great and are awesome in the lore. GW just needs to alter their rules on the tabletop.

No they aren't. Repeating GW corporate nonsense doesn't make it true. "Silent and invisible" is something Astartes can already do with anything from assault marines to scouts- just hand them grappling hooks and they fulfill the same exact role. And what does slitting the throat of Ork Boyz achieve? You are dedicating one of the most limited resources you have, primaris space marines, to kill and only kill soft targets. They're yet another Primaris unit without any anti-armor or anti-air capabilities, and worse yet their role is to deploy ahead of the rest of the Chapter. Meaning they can't even depend on hellblasters for backup, they just straight up die if they run into an armor column and can't bug out in time. Marines killing what is little more than chaff, light infantry, isn't a good use of marines. That's what the guard exists for. 

 

They also aren't even good assassins. All they pack is boltguns and knives. They aren't going to fair well when they tasked with bumping off a Khorne Lord who's armor has been reinforced to the point of just shrugging off boltguns, an Ork Warboss who probably can survive getting shot by a 200mm cannon and treat it as nothing other than a fleshwound, or a Kalabite Archon who sees bolts move like raindrops and can jink around them with little difficulty. In short, Reivers are only good at one thing and one thing only, killing weak fodder and the leaders of weak fodder. That's moronic. The Imperium shouldn't be using its rarest troops built to engage the hardest and most deadly threats in the galaxy to effectively beat up and bully the 40k equivalent of a paraplegic. 

 

 

to be fair, in their background, those knifes are power blades. So.... may well be able to deal with better armoured foes too.

 

I think if they were given the option to infiltrate (or maybe even an ambush rule like GSC) and their blades made to be -1 AP (and not lose the extra attack), they'd be pretty decent.

 

Also, power armour growls and whirs normally, space marines in power armour are not generally shown as being stealthy in the way the reivers were in blood of iax. Exception are raven guard, who apparently are ninjas one and all. Whilst not a perfect source, one of the better more detailed sources on power armour is the Deathwatch RPG, and in that power armour provides pretty substantial negatives on stealth and move silently checks, space marines are indeed all trained in stealth and move silently but most can't get good at either till late in their careers.

 

That's not to say they're a perfectly designed unit, but going on the lore version of them (the game one does currently kinda suck), I'd say both you and Ishagu are incorrect and they actually fall somewhere between the two.

[Lemondish]

Their namesake is the goal, just as it is for all Primaris units - they're to be raiders, plunderers, and guerrilla fighters. I think their fluff tries to capture that well enough. That's also a worthwhile military role for a unit.

 

Their fluff isn't the issue. The issue is how they perform on the table. On the positive side of things, they do have decent mobility over rough terrain, much like their namesake would suggest (like border reivers). Also, their gear fits the goal well thematically, with tools that are all about targeting weaker enemy units and using their shock grenades to weaken them further.

 

Sadly their stats on wargear hold them back and they don't execute on the theme very effectively. But that's a far cry from saying their role is aimless.  

[Quixus]

Their namesake is the goal, just as it is for all Primaris units - they're to be raiders, plunderers, and guerrilla fighters. I think their fluff tries to capture that well enough. That's also a worthwhile military role for a unit.

The problem is that Space Marines should already be the Navy SEALs/Spetsnaz of the imperium. They do not have the numbers to be line units and are already much better skilled and motivated than the typical Guard unit. Also Scouts already fill the role of forward operatives.

 

Then again it makes little sense to waste neophytes in the most solitary and unsupported missions. The Space Wolf approach is much more rational.

[Lemondish]

 

Their namesake is the goal, just as it is for all Primaris units - they're to be raiders, plunderers, and guerrilla fighters. I think their fluff tries to capture that well enough. That's also a worthwhile military role for a unit.

The problem is that Space Marines should already be the Navy SEALs/Spetsnaz of the imperium. They do not have the numbers to be line units and are already much better skilled and motivated than the typical Guard unit. Also Scouts already fill the role of forward operatives.

 

Then again it makes little sense to waste neophytes in the most solitary and unsupported missions. The Space Wolf approach is much more rational.

Here's the thing, the Imperium isn't some dichotomy where the special forces of our world today can easily matched up directly. There are far more elite forces than marines in the Imperium, from Deathwatch (who are actually far more like the special forces of today than normal marines are) and Grey Knights, which are basically armoured space wizards. See, it's silly to try to make comparisons like this because even at a surface level they're weak.

 

But I would argue that Reivers are closer to that special forces sneaky style than the louder shock and awe that is an Astartes assault.

 

But I disagree that scouts and Reivers have the same role. Scouts scout. Reivers raid. Or rather, they should. They can't, though. Not today.

 

They really need two shots on that pistol, terror troops should deny objective secured rules when they contest objectives, the carbine should get -1 AP like bolt rifles, the knife should be -1 or -2 AP like a weaker power sword, and their grenade should have a greater range so it can be used more often. They need to be able to create havoc and be annoying in the enemy's backline to fit their namesake and role, and they need to be able to do it relatively reliably.

 

That role wouldn't remove scouts as forward operatives. It would instead get Reivers on track to doing the unique thing they should be great at - disruption.

[Red_Shift]

If they could set booby traps, chuck meltabombs at tanks, snipe characters they would make more sense to me. I feel like an upgrade sprue that added an anti-material/tank rifle (like a foldable or bullpop design) would help. On the tabletop some unexpected sabotage rule would help cement the idea of them being up to shenanigans.

[Ishagu]

In the lore they definitely play a part.

 

An independent, covert unit that exists outside of regular chapter structure that can run recon, assassination and recovery missions.

 

Similar to Scouts, you might say, except these aren't rookies but are hardened Astartes.

[autek mor]

marines are further away from the lore than they have ever been. as things stand, astra millitarum should be the poster boy and on the covers of 40K computer/console/phone games and merchandise. as for the reivers they are very meh.

[spessmarine]

Seems like they want to take a page out of the RG playbook.

Mor Deythan in particular for RG really fills out sneaky marines