what will happen to guard in chapter approved?

[zero88]

Make the Exterminator Autocannon either Heavy 6 or make it S8

[Shamansky]

What's the issue with more elite options? With our tendency to run multiple detachments we hardly have problems with elite slots as an army. 

Most of tournaments i participated had limited number of detachments, usual maximum is 3. And to take another detachment you usually have to pay HQ-tax.

[Wassa]

We don’t need new elites, we just need our command squad to be more survivable and to have the character keyword. I could accept it if it required the regimental standard.

[Feral_80]

Command squads are completely wrong: they are used (if ever) as stronger vets/special weapon squads. But this typically suicidal role is not what you would expect from a Command squad, ie the men surrounding and assisting an officer on the field.

The CS buffing/support version, which is what the squad should *really* do, is completely useless both because the squad evaporates under any form of fire, and because the buffs it provides are expensive and ridiculously poor.

 

Thus, the current rules encourage players to either not take CS at all, or to take them with very unfluffy setups. The way to fix this is too complex to be implemented now, as  in my opinion it would require three things:

 

- make Veteran squads great again, with special abilities/doctrines and variable squad size. This is where we should pick our hard-hitters from.

- remove from CS the ability to take 4x special weapons (1-2 is more than enough): rather give them *good* rules for their fluffy banners, medipacks, and vox, which currently are all a waste of points.

- possibly make CS only targettable as characters as long as they are within 3" of an <officer>

 

Of course, as I said there is no way this will happen at this stage, as many other fundamental things: GW cannot admit what is now all too clear, i.e. that they have messed up 8th edition already by writing codexes with extremely poor internal and external balance. They cannot simply patch up every codex as they should.

[NatBrannigan]

I suspect Orks are going to be the new army to hate when their codex comes out and everyone will forget about us soon :)

[MrZakalwe]

Most of tournaments i participated had limited number of detachments, usual maximum is 3. And to take another detachment you usually have to pay HQ-tax.

 

 

 

Yeah but unless you are running a soup list you are probably running at least double battalion. A single battalion can have 6 and a bridage 8 so I've got no idea what you are running that the slots aren't enough 

[Wassa]

I’d gladly take the banner but other than hiding it behind a rock and making the rest of the squad useless it’s not really worth it. I’d rather just take Kell who can actually stand side by side with the troops

[Commissar potato]

I Hope leman russes get a fall back and still shoot ability as they are far to vulnerable to melee. In addition, I think it would be pretty cool if they could move and still shoot their sponsons at full ballistic skill. Leman russes are in a pretty good spot but I do think they need a little nudge. 

[duz_]

Although I'd like to see LR's be able to fall back and shoot (even at -1) I think that might be a bit too much 

[Shamansky]

 

Most of tournaments i participated had limited number of detachments, usual maximum is 3. And to take another detachment you usually have to pay HQ-tax.

 

 

 

Yeah but unless you are running a soup list you are probably running at least double battalion. A single battalion can have 6 and a bridage 8 so I've got no idea what you are running that the slots aren't enough 

I've never run a soup list.

I just like using regimental doctrines properly. Stand and shoot for Cadia. Run and gun for Tallarn. Hold the ground for Valhalla. Big Boom for Catachan. Death rain for Elysia. So i can run out of detachments pretty fast.

[Frostglaive]

From a non-Guard player's opinion, I personally don't think the Guard codex will be hugely affected by Chapter Approved 2018. I do believe wholeheartedly you will get some points adjustments, but probably not to the extreme some people may or may not be thinking. My guess is vehicles like Wyverns and Leman Russes may go up slightly, Manticores go down, and I think Infantry Squads will go back to being 5ppm ("worst" case scenario. Me personally, I think they should be 5ppm, but I really don't care if they are or not in the end).

 

My reasoning is GW has already stated that CA2018 will be over 100 pages. A good chunk of that will be the beta codex for Sisters of Battle. Then all new missions/scenarios for both Open and Matched play (probably 6 eternal 6 maelstrom, and however many Open Play like the last CA book). And they did say CA will be addressing some issues with Space Marines, which honestly I think/hope is going to be a massive overhaul, which will probably take up another good chunk of the book. Most, if not all, armies will get some points adjustments here and there (Drukhari and Space Wolves will probably get a fair amount, Drukhari because of how powerful they are, Wolves because they are one of the newest codices), so that'll take more than a few pages. Then whatever fixes they decide to implement for CP and soup lists.

 

With all that, I don't think Guard are going to get that much of an overhaul or really even a patch. I think it'll just be a few points tweaks and nothing more.

 

I'd like to see some of the changes you guys have suggested. Command Squads acting as characters and actually being viable with their fluff equipment. Pintle weapons on Russes firing into close combat. Veterans actually having options again like the previous editions and actually being viable once more. That and more. It'd be nice, but I don't think it'll happen any time soon.

 

Again, just an outsider's opinion on the matter. Although depending how the games changes with CA, I may start a Guard army in the future...

[Wassa]

Wyverns should go up?

 

A wyvern has 4D6 mortar attacks, can reroll wounds, and has a heavy bolter for 103 points.

 

A HWT of 3 mortars has 3D6 mortar attacks, and 3 lasguns for 33 points.

 

 

It depends on the battle, but usually the guard player would prefer 3x HWT consisting of 9D6 mortar attacks for 99 points. It allows them to cover more land, prevent deepstrike, Not lose accuracy with wounds, and the other teams can still fire if one team is in combat.

[librisrouge]

Veterans actually having options again like the previous editions and actually being viable once more. That and more. It'd be nice, but I don't think it'll happen any time soon.

I hate to say it, I really do, but after seeing how GW is treating 'ardboyz and scarboyz in the Orks codex this time around, I think there is a 0% chance of this happening. At best, we can expect similar treatment where we have to spend CP to make this happen. Don't get me wrong, I'd totally fork out to give a few vet squads some better gear, but it wouldn't allow it to be army wide.

 

Actually, that makes me think. I'd absolutely love an IG mechanic similar to old doctrines but requires an expensive CP spending before the game begins. Like, you spent all of your support on carapace armor, hope you didn't need those radios.

[noigrim]

Less nerf

[librisrouge]

Less nerf

But GW follows the oldest of adages.

[-Nemesis-]

We don’t need new elites, we just need our command squad to be more survivable and to have the character keyword. I could accept it if it required the regimental standard.

And I would make that the requirement. It would encourage more buffing command squads like medic/banner + 2 specials. Or a backfield artillery support unit with banner/medic and a lascannon that shoots at BS3 and needs to be isolated to be silenced.  These options are not inexpensive, and you're limited to 3 of them, so I do not think they would be in any way game breaking.

[Chris521]

Apparently Boyz have gone up a point.  I think this makes it very likely that guardsman are going up to 5.

[Kinstryfe]

Sadly I'm expecting infantry squads to go up by some amount. I can honestly see them trying to rationalize it as "now conscripts are cheaper than regular dudes again!". I also expect mortars to go up by some amount. If we're lucky, some other weapons will drop to counter it, but being GW...

[domsto]

Apparently Boyz have gone up a point. I think this makes it very likely that guardsman are going up to 5.

Do you have a source for this?

Guardsman at 5ppm would really hurt mono Guard

[duz_]

5ppm wouldn't be as big a deal as long as all horde armies saw a similar increase in price

Hordes probably could be reigned in a bit to give power armour half a chance

 

If infantry squads were singled out for the increase that would be unfortunate

[Chris521]

 

Apparently Boyz have gone up a point. I think this makes it very likely that guardsman are going up to 5.

Do you have a source for this?

Guardsman at 5ppm would really hurt mono Guard

 

 

Sorry, I don't have the link handy.  I saw a facebook screen shot of the points page.  It was linked somewhere in the rumors thread on dakka.

[Frater Cornelius]

5ppm Guardsmen will do absolutely nothing. Loyal 32 will go from 180pts to 210pts. Still worth it. The only ones it'll hit is pure Guard, but even they won't care too much about as it's an average increase of 60pts. The only thing that will truly fix ally exploiting is separate CP pools per faction or a hard-limit on how many CPs you can have. Or they'll limit the amount of factions that can be souped. Only having 2 factions allowed per soup will have many reconsider the inclusion of the 32, especially since CP generation has been nerved. The biggest problem isn't the bodies, but the easy access to CP in armies that should have that many.

[Finkmilkana]

If it’s really ‘only’ about CP and not about cheap massed bodies that can double advance to hold objective, then people would just switch to Ad Mech in case that guardsmen go to 5ppm. The also quite loyal 17 (3x5 rangers, 2 engineseers) is only 199 and can even heal a knight as added bonus.

[NatBrannigan]

Just release a range of really stupid looking hats. The more different Imperium detachments you use in a game, the stupider the hat you have to wear?

 

Really the CP thing need a look, I know it's been said a lot before but it's obvious to me. As a pure Guard player I'll happily loose some CP's to stop people using Infantry Squads just to get more CP's. That would stop our Infantry getting hammered every time a new supplement comes out!

 

Not sure how to do this really, but maybe if you only gain Command Points from your "Primary" detachment? So If I take a Brigade I get my 6 extra CP's. Then if I want to add a Battalion of Space Marines that's fine, but no extra CP's from it? An easy fix to the whole Soup issue that doesn't cripple any army either (I don't think?).

 

Ban Aliatoc Eldar and that's 8th edition fixed! Huzzah!

[Feral_80]

 

Ban Aliatoc Eldar and that's 8th edition fixed! Huzzah!

 

Fixed this.

-1 hit spam has greatly contributed to ruining the game, and most Eldar can just abuse it way beyond any sense.

 

I think the CP problem, which is obviously the real reason why the loyal xy get abused, can be easily fixed in a number of ways, like the one you proposed or the other one which is often invoked ('primary' detachment and CP). I do not advocate the idea that CPs can only be spent on their own detachment because that would complicate things and force players to keep track of 2-3 different CP pools. Anything simpler will do for me.

 

We'll see if, and especially how, GW addresses these issues. From what I've seen from recent codexes, it seems to me that GW has realized at least the huge problem of -1 hit modifiers, and has provided recent codexes with a number of ways to ignore it (see Orkz, which look bonkers at the moment). The limits to the use of CP for the two new mini-armies from Kill Team might be a hint about the (poor) way GW is going to limit CPs in the future.

This, I am afraid, implies that GW is addressing these issues through the new codexes, but has no intention to do it game-wide, because it would be too clear an admission of having failed with core mechanics. What they'll do with old codexes remains a mystery. As for CP and Guard, raising the cost of Guardsmen would be the simplest, dumbest, most ineffective and most unfair solution around. 

 

I have a bad feeling about this.